Anybody out there "pro-choice"?

[JimG]

I would say about 4 or 5 monthes. NOw I donlt think it should be totally restricted ever. But I donlt think a woman should at 5 monthes for instance just be able to walk into a clinic and get an abortion for whatever reason. Actually ideally in an ideal world no woman would ever get an abortion at any time for any reason other then rape or severe risk to life. I donlt think we live in such an ideal world just yet and doubt I will see it in my life time.

Well, I think most people have some point at which they would prohibit abortion. Ten months for example, i.e. a one-month old baby. But there are some who would not restrict it even then. A well known professor at Princeton believes that parents should have up to 3 months after birth to change their minds.

But abortion at ten minutes before delivery would also be pretty traumatic, or at 1 month or 2 months before delivery, especially if it was for something like sex selection or maternal convience or because she changed her mind about motherhood.

In truth though, the reason doesn’t matter, because it can’t be enforced. Kansas law prohibits abortion after viability except to save the mother’s life or if continuation would have an irreverisible impact on a major bodiliy function. ("Major bodily function was determined by courts to include mental health.) Yet we have a well known late term abortionist who prospers. All he needs is a second abortionist to agree with him that the abortion was for “health” reasons.

 

[royal_archer]

My feelings on abortion are as follows:
No human being should be discarded by death. However, given the current circumstances of either zero tolerance or full 24 week fetus’s being murdered it may be that we need to find a way to save, at least the babies who are aware that they live.
The cruelty of later term abortions is intolerable but we will not be able to stop this area of torture without taking into reasonable consideration the idea that an embryo has no awareness of life and set, at the very least, a reasonable termination age.
Given our belief that we are immortal souls, perhaps we should aim to protect the children who have reached an age of being able to interact with the outside world. It is my understanding that the nervous system begins transmitting signals to the brain at around 12 weeks. That gives a rape victom, a deformed and unviable fetus, a high risk pregnancy where the mother could be in danger, or uncountable circumstances the option of terminating in the spirit of faith and mercy.
This stalmate is causing unbelievable agony and pain where perhaps a compromise would at least save the children who are too far along to terminate with any mercy, and would save countless mothers the agony and guilt of later realization of what they have done.

If you are advocating that the punishment should be proportional to the development of the child. I can see your case. If you think we have the right to murder children because they are less aware, then how do you not apply that same logic to the newley born, those in a comma, those in a vegatative state, those with dimminished mental capacity, or those with less than normal mental capacity?

 

[royal_archer]

If by saying this you mean a woman makes a decision because they had sex, let me remind you of FORCED sex. No they don’t. That 9 year old GIRL in Brazil did not make that decision. Women raped, VIOLENTLY violated, don’t make that decision.

I am politically pro-choice. Only because I don’t want anyone other than MY Church and faith telling me what to do.

To take away rights is a slippery slope I do not want to go down.

The child is an innocent by-stander. What makes you feel you have the “right” to violate that innocent person’s right to life?

If people’s only civil restraint were the teachings of their “religion” we would have radical followers of false religions killing infidels and sacrificing humans, and all other forms of evil doing that violate the rights of others. As an orderly society we must maintain an individuals rights over the whims of others who wish to infringe apon them.

 

[royal_archer]

Yeah yeah, I’ve heard it all before. Still hasn’t changed my mind.

ETA:.

Why are you so closed minded?

Usually people who like make comments like “woman made her choice” in regards to the pro-choice issue, they are usually assuming that women who are having an abortion were willing sex partners. I wanted remind people that is not always the case…

You are right they are victims. but being a victim does not give them a license to kill. If someone bumps you in traffic, do you have the right to total another person’s car because the car reminds you of the person who did you wrong? Of course not. The baby is an innocent third party who is not responsible for the attack and should not be punnished for the act.

Secondly, many women who choose to have abortions are not doing it willy nilly. Many are going to do it no matter what. I’d rather not have them die. Where as, you would…

Many terrorist die in their attacks. should we make it easier for them to attack innocent people so they are less likely to get hurt? Obviously not. Where else would you find it reasonable to make it easier for murders to kill with less risk to themselves?

In an ideal world, we wouldn’t have to worry about these things. We are not, however, in an ideal world. Mostly, I vote pro-CHOICE because I do not wish to have any particular group of people deign to tell me what to do. If we had it our way, everyone would be Catholic, we’d live in an ideal world, and this wouldn’t be an issue…

You realize that those politicians who are pro abortion are the least pro choice amoung us. They are trying to tell us what cars to drive (milage standards), where to send our kids to school, how to spend our money, how to run our businesses, how to build our houses, who we can and can not hire, what medicines we are allowed to take, and of course confiscating half our income so we have no choice on how to use it. I’d hardly call those people pro choice.

However, this is not the case, unfortunately. Being pro-choice doesn’t mean that you want everyone to have an abortion.

Most murders don’t want everyone to commit murder, only the ones that are conveinent for them.

 

[royal_archer]

Consider:

A fetus conceived in the womb of a young, unmarried woman.

The fetus is mixed race in a society that is substantially racist.

A look into the future reveals:

That the father will basically never be involved in the child’s life.

That the child will be raised by several different family members in different locations.

At age 10, the child will be exposed to, and develop a relationship with, an alleged pedophile and subversive.

Several who post here, under the banner of “rights” and “choice”, would advise the young mother to abort. “Why bear the burden of this unplanned pregnancy? Why subject a child to such a life?” they might say. Taking their advice, she would then have aborted the very fetus who became the president that her “pro-choice” advisers recently elected. Set the morality aside for a few. Where is the logic? Abortion has consequences for mother, child and the world. Our president is alive because his mother was pro-life. Period.

“Oh”, you might say, “abortion was not legal in 1961”. Well, neither was homicide, but we also had plenty of those.

I’ve heard storyies of the Klan promoting abortion in the inner cities. I wonder when the pro abortion crowd will be labled as racist.

 

[royal_archer]

Also another reason I am prochoice is basically cause I donlt think I have the right to say another woman should do what I am not completely sure I would be willing to do. Oh sure I can sit here and say I would never terminate a pregnancy of my own. But then again can I say that for sure? I mean the thought of having kids of being pregnant is an absolute nightmare for me. But I have a loving supporting husband, not all women have that. Not all women are in a stable situation like me. So if I can;t say with 100% conviction that I would never have an abortion…how can I tell another woman that she should have no choice in the matter and must carry the fetus to term?

Following your logic: I can’t say for 100% sure that I would never murder anyone does that mean I should advocate the legalization of murder? Babies are an inconvenience but so are some of my neighbors. That does not give me the right to kill them. Instead we should be working to help these people through their troubling times.

We all have urges to do the wrong thing that is why we have laws, to stop wrong doing , not to codify what we would do anyhow.

 

[royal_archer]

Supporting pro-choice, doesn’t mean supporting abortion. I wouldn’t want to support an abortion with my money. Take public funding out of abortion. However, this would be difficult as I do support universal health care.

I’m sorry I thought you were pro “Choice” What if I choose to not participate in the “universal health care” shouldn’t I have the right to choose to spend my money on my quality of life in a way I choose?

I hope you don’t think parrents have the right to choose to murder their children but do not have a right to choose alternative health plans.

 

[royal_archer]

What I am saying is I donlt think at least on the issue of abortions partically early term abortions since I can;t say with 100% conviction I would never get one at such a stage. It would feel wrong for me to then say I feel any other woman shouldn;t have a choice either. Ideally though I would like there to be little to no abortions. But I donlt think making them illegal will help that.

Hey po18guy, I can’t say with 100% conviction that if I ran into a baby killer in a dark ally I wouldn’t, well, you know, do something that appropriate for a non-violent, person. So it looks like you and everyone else should have the green light to do what ever you want.

 

[Calliso]

Following your logic: I can’t say for 100% sure that I would never murder anyone does that mean I should advocate the legalization of murder? Babies are an inconvenience but so are some of my neighbors. That does not give me the right to kill them. Instead we should be working to help these people through their troubling times.

We all have urges to do the wrong thing that is why we have laws, to stop wrong doing , not to codify what we would do anyhow.

True you have a good point course I should note that isnt my only reason for being prochoice. But I donlt think I am getting what I am trying to say as well as I want to anyway but whatever we will just have to agree to disagree cause I am not changing my mind on being prochoice. I also donlt think that making abortion illegal at this time is the solution I think it would just at this time just cause more problems…and only stop some abortions.

 

[Calliso]

Hey po18guy, I can’t say with 100% conviction that if I ran into a baby killer in a dark ally I wouldn’t, well, you know, do something that appropriate for a non-violent, person. So it looks like you and everyone else should have the green light to do what ever you want.

Well that;s not what I was trying to say…but yeah whatever think I am just going to drop that argument.

 

[twinklers]

While I agree with the concept of “fight the battles you can win” in general, I think it’s important to understand that the Catholic message needs to be clear and unambiguous. While lobbying against “late term” abortions may give way to lesser abortions overall, it also sends a message that the Catholic position puts “late term” babies ahead of “early term” babies, or that life begins at say, 6 months gestation vs. at conception. I do think you’re right in a sense…that an attack on this more “winable” legal battle may be a good first step…so long as it is clear that the Catholic position is aimed at complete and total illegalization, not partial. I also agree with Eddie, in that it’s not necessarily about stopping the suffering of innocents. The first and foremost issue is preserving the sanctity of life…from conception to natural death. If we try to differentiate the sanctity based on our feelings of ‘who suffers most?’…then indeed, we may be letting our emotions drive our efforts as opposed to our faith.

It may be that the Catholic issue on abortions will never be readily accepted by the population as a whole. It may also be that we may need to address this issue from a human standpoint because whenever faih or religion is involved in public issues it generally ends in stalmate or war with both sides unable to compromise. It has been proven time and again that when abortions are unavailable, mostly young teenage girls find themselves in butcher shops, dying along with their babies in a state of mortal sin. Yes, abortions are awful. Birth control for those who do not have sufficient information to curtail their promiscuity, those who are addicted to drugs and other vice, those who have been discarded early in their childhoods without faith or family, will continue to find themselves pregnant with no ability or will to complete bringing a soul into their version of life.
Their are great evils and lesser evils. Any large job require a beginning. Lets start where we can make a difference. I believe that if we begin where we can, the Lord will light the pathway and that light will remain lit by our successes, each life saved has much more value than no lives saved because we refuse to start in the most obvious place available.

 

[po18guy]

What I am saying is I donlt think at least on the issue of abortions partically early term abortions since I can;t say with 100% conviction I would never get one at such a stage. It would feel wrong for me to then say I feel any other woman shouldn;t have a choice either. Ideally though I would like there to be little to no abortions. But I donlt think making them illegal will help that.

I know that you were not aborted. But, should you have been? Should your mother have had the right to deny you life - once it had begun? How is that any different form murder?

 

[po18guy]

I’ve heard storyies of the Klan promoting abortion in the inner cities. I wonder when the pro abortion crowd will be labled as racist.

Ah, but there is something MUCH more successful than the KKK: the “PP”. Just Google “Margaret Sanger” the foundress of Planned Parenthood. See her racist and eugenic views. Why is so much of PP advertising done on Univision (Latino) and Black Entertainment Television? Why, indeed?

 

[po18guy]

What I am saying is I donlt think at least on the issue of abortions partically early term abortions since I can;t say with 100% conviction I would never get one at such a stage. It would feel wrong for me to then say I feel any other woman shouldn;t have a choice either. Ideally though I would like there to be little to no abortions. But I donlt think making them illegal will help that.

Might I suggest some illuminating reading? Get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Read sections 2270-2272 on abortion. They will give you moral direction and give the reasons for the teaching. Your current thinking is influenced by our world, and comes solely from the society in which we live. Until the last century, no Christian assembly anywhere gave any support whatsoever to abortion.

 

[royal_archer]

True you have a good point course I should note that isnt my only reason for being prochoice. But I donlt think I am getting what I am trying to say as well as I want to anyway but whatever we will just have to agree to disagree cause I am not changing my mind on being prochoice. I also donlt think that making abortion illegal at this time is the solution I think it would just at this time just cause more problems…and only stop some abortions.

Either my argument is illogical or yours is. I am willing to examine the logic of all of these arguments. I hope that you will think this through and see that you have to do what is right, even if it is not the feel good choice.

 

[Calliso]

I know that you were not aborted. But, should you have been? Should your mother have had the right to deny you life - once it had begun? How is that any different form murder?

Should I have been aborted? well I can;t say I should have been…but I can;t say I shouldn;t have been either. If my mother had chosen to deny me life it would have mattered little actually nothing to me as I simply would not exist. Also as I understand it murder is a legal term a fetus is not considered a person…so it is not considered murder to kill it. Now personally I think that in the early term stages that while abortion is certainly a sad thing it is little more then killing a few cells.

 

[Revert_TSIEG]

Pro choice=pro abortion. Hiding from that is futile.

If that is the case, then pro-life=pro-bombing abortion clinics… It make no logical sense. Please do not stereotype.

 

[Revert_TSIEG]

VVVVVV I like this saying!!! VVVVVV

Rather than the Church adding to scripture, scripture has added to the Church.

 

[po18guy]

Should I have been aborted? well I can;t say I should have been…but I can;t say I shouldn;t have been either. If my mother had chosen to deny me life it would have mattered little actually nothing to me as I simply would not exist. Also as I understand it murder is a legal term a fetus is not considered a person…so it is not considered murder to kill it. Now personally I think that in the early term stages that while abortion is certainly a sad thing it is little more then killing a few cells.

If you profess to believe in an all-powerful God, then you likely agree that He is the Author of life, from which all authority flows. Since he is the One Who creates life, He is the only One to call it home. To end life outside of God’s authority by murder, euthanasia (murder), abortion (murder) or suicide (self-murder), is a direct denial of God’s will. Either life is sacred, or you open the door to all other interpretations of its value or lack thereof. Dangerous territory, no?

 

[po18guy]

VVVVVV I like this saying!!! VVVVVV

Rather than the Church adding to scripture, scripture has added to the Church.

As a revert, it likely struck a chord with you.