Anybody out there "pro-choice"?

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My mother hadn’t known that she had any other choices. She was in the military, overseas, had a brief affair with a man who already had four kids and wound up pregnant. The father was already elsewhere by the time she knew she was pregnant, and she couldn’t bring herself to tell him. She was on and off with my father and had hopes of marrying him some day, and was petrified of telling him she’d gotten pregnant by someone else. Given the societal view of out-of-wedlock pregnancies of the time, she feared her liberal adoptive family wouldn’t support her. She didn’t find out until years later that both her family and my father would have supported her completely - which they both proved a few years later when a similar scenario occurred with my sister. My dad married her anyway, and to see the pictures of him holding her after she was born, I didn’t know for nearly twenty years of my life that he wasn’t her dad. Sadly, she died at six weeks, and unfortunately my mom’s scars from her abortion ripped open in her heart when that happened, believing she was being punished for what she’d done. It took a great deal of patience and compassion on my father’s part, and my own coming into the world and surviving, to help change her mind of that.

I share my mother’s story as I just have, as well as my own. I never had an abortion, but my mother’s abortion affected my life. While I had the fortune not to have lived such a dark and sad life as yours, it is still mine, and the pain and trouble is my pain and therefor significant to me. My father has his story to tell, as well, his regret in not having had the chance to tell my mother that he would have loved that baby as his own in time to save it, the pain in the fact that they’d never been able to have a child after me, and never the financial security to adopt.

I am truly sorry for what you’ve gone through, and I appreciate your sharing your story. It helps me and everyone else here know where you’re coming from.

Some people don’t have the courage to ask. I don’t just go up to random frightened pregnant teens and tell them about my mom’s story. But I do start a conversation. I listen to them, to where they’re coming from, and offer what help I can. If my mom’s story, my story, my father’s story can help them, I offer it.

Even if I could never change the law, I would still protest, because it is a cause worth protesting. I am not focusing my entire attention on that side of things, as I believe I’ve demonstrated. I’m not exhausting myself on a lost cause. 40 Days for Life has succeeded in saving quite a number of children, given hope back to hopeless mothers and families, changed the hearts of clinic workers and abortionists, and has even had a hand in shutting down numerous clinics. All through simple prayer and a peaceful presence outside of these clinics, with smiling faces, open ears and arms, and directions to the nearest crisis pregnancy center. These people take classes in sidewalk counseling, and even help clinic workers to find new jobs when they express the interest in quitting.

I wasn’t suggesting that I needed your approval. That’s obvious enough that I don’t. But you posed the challenge that I don’t do anything, or enough. What would be enough for you? It seems to me that you’re of the opinion to just leave well enough alone. If so, then why be so disgusted with people who do just that, in your eyes, by doing nothing but praying and putting bumper stickers on their cars? Because they make a fuss? You seem awfully adamant yourself for someone who doesn’t want to impede on anyone’s free will.
**Enough is enough for me. Whatever you choose to do is enough. However I choose to stay out of the way, mind my own business, pray for my own lost fetus, that’s enough. I don’t know that it’s “well enough” when a woman is considering terminating a pregnancy. That’s not just a question of “rice or potatoes with the beef”. I think I’ve made it clear enough that I am not compelled to try to manipulate women into changing their minds or their behaviors. If a woman had come up to me as I was entering the abortion facility in D.C. 38 years ago and tried to talk to me, or even look at me, I would have backhanded her. I suppose that’s the risk you as a counselor take when you delve into something you have never experienced personally.

So do the things that make you feel a part of the Good Fight. I don’t begrudge you that. And I’ll find contentment in non-involvement and a failure to coerce.

Limerick **
 
**Why would a woman want to spend the rest of her life with a man who was jealous and controlling - even to the point of trying to control what has already taken place?! A male virgin and a female virgin, with no experience in the sexual arena - they might have a chance at a satisfying life together. A couple where one or both partners is “pained” by the thought of a former paramour? Is this for real? **

Limerick
Your perspectives are considerably out of the norm so I wouldn’t expect you to understand.
 
**Allowing other people to live their lives is hardly “disdain”. Do I need to get in their faces and say, “Put down that joint, Marge!! Don’t you know it will harm you??”

Limerick**
Allowing them to harm themselves in ignorance while you show nothing but apathy can only come from disdain.
 
Your mother wishes someone “had been there for her, to talk to and offer encouraging words, support, and not just ‘well, it’s up to you, it’s your choice, after all’.” If her abortion took place after Roe, it was her choice. Where was the father of the fetus? You say this was your brother who was aborted - was his father your father? Where was her family? Was she truly alone? Did she receive counseling? Is she Catholic? Did she see a priest? There’s much about this story that we don’t know and so we cannot get an accurate picture of what happened.

When you talk to people, do you share your story, or do you share your mother’s story? What, then, is your story?

Only when I am asked, I share my story. A Roman Catholic child, I was repeatedly sexually assaulted from age nine, incested by my brother, left home at 18 without a clue with regard to the function of the female reproductive system, pregnant within that year. Already an alcoholic and recreational drug user, I had an abortion at 19, became an addict, and traveled in a world of alcoholism and addiction and dealers and other illegal features until I sobered up at 32. While drinking I married a drunk who had had four wives before me. We were sober when our daughter was born. She is now 22 years old. She has never been on a date. She largely distrusts men, a cue she took from me and ran with. She carries within her heart a faint fairy tale of lasting love, but she has never seen it. Nor will I.

So, what difference do you think you’re making in the legal ring? Anything moving there? It doesn’t matter whether your efforts are adequate in my eyes. You have decided these are things you want to do to support a cause that you’re very passionate about. This comes to you, by the way, through a powerful vehicle called CHOICE.

Limerick
Please consider contacting rachelsvineyard.org/
 
**Enough is enough for me. Whatever you choose to do is enough. However I choose to stay out of the way, mind my own business, pray for my own lost fetus, that’s enough. I don’t know that it’s “well enough” when a woman is considering terminating a pregnancy. That’s not just a question of “rice or potatoes with the beef”. I think I’ve made it clear enough that I am not compelled to try to manipulate women into changing their minds or their behaviors. If a woman had come up to me as I was entering the abortion facility in D.C. 38 years ago and tried to talk to me, or even look at me, I would have backhanded her. I suppose that’s the risk you as a counselor take when you delve into something you have never experienced personally.

So do the things that make you feel a part of the Good Fight. I don’t begrudge you that. And I’ll find contentment in non-involvement and a failure to coerce.

Limerick **
You can hardly consider your self to not be involved. By posting here you have decided to get involved. And, your posts have been advocating a position which will lead to more innocent deaths. Why? Are you pro abortion? Are you lonely? Are yoiu trying to rationalize bad decisions you have made in the past? Are you trying to come to grips with what you have done? Obviously you have experienced a few demons in your life. There are organizations out there who welcome a chance to help you.
 
** This comes to you, by the way, through a powerful vehicle called CHOICE.**

**Limerick **
Not all choices are good or should be allowed. That you have the pwoer to act wrongly in no way proves it should be allowed.
 
Hmm, well…I see where you’re going with this. But I think it becomes skewed when we introduce the term “truth” into prudence. I’ve not seen that term used like that. Perhaps I need to dig deeper. But I think it confuses the matter, because IMO, one’s use of prudential judgment does not equate to a subjective “truth”. It simply equates to a judgment, a decision on how to behave in certain situations. That judgment is still required to align with (and never stray from) sound moral teaching. Therefore no new truths are introduced through the use of this virtue.

My understanding of prudential judgment is that prudence is a cardinal virtue, developed through habit, potentially strengthened by grace, that exists because of the complexity and grayness of life experiences, where precise and direct moral guidance is absent, or minimal. The use of it does not allow one to choose freely whatever they want. Rather, it demands that one choose correctly through careful examination of facts, counseling and established morals.

Perhaps this is your understanding of it too, elts. It’s just that I don’t think “relative truth” is a proper way of defining what is manifested when one uses prudence to make decisions on various issues.

Blessings.
Yes, it just gets confusioner and confusioner. I wish I were a bit smarter to be able to understand all this.

Quote: My understanding of prudential judgment is that prudence is a cardinal virtue, developed through habit, potentially strengthened by grace, that exists because of the complexity and grayness of life experiences, where precise and direct moral guidance is absent, or minimal.Quote

I think I am saying the same thing without the great explanation you gave. Perhaps relativity wasn’t a good choice of words, but the decisions made by folks whether they have developed Prudence through habit,strengthed by Grace are relative in the fact there is that lack of direct moral guidance. ie. each decision made by each individual is allowed to be different as compared with the Abolute truth where the moral guidance is direct. Correct Prudential judgement, or truth can be the result of an individual’s background, life experiences etc. whereas those truths which are Absolute are non-negotiable, because we are given DIRECT Moral guidance. Hopefully those making judgements of a Prudential nature have developed the habit of forming a right conscience through grace and study of moral law.

I have been confused about the use of the word Prudential also. Have you read the USCCB document regarding voting with a well formed conscience? They use the term Prudential judgement in the document. Perhaps there is another word that would be better used than Prudential in my definition?

:confused:
 
elts, seems like we’re on the same page. I’d like to see how the Magisterium words it, because I’d be a bit surprised to see the word “truth” used in a relative sense. I think that’s what FanChan was articulating, that the word “truth” is (or should be) reserved for the absolute, and that anything relative is described most appropriately using words such as judgment, opinion or understanding (which in no way affect truth).

Anyway, we’re all good, I think.

Blessings
 
elts, seems like we’re on the same page. I’d like to see how the Magisterium words it, because I’d be a bit surprised to see the word “truth” used in a relative sense. I think that’s what FanChan was articulating, that the word “truth” is (or should be) reserved for the absolute, and that anything relative is described most appropriately using words such as judgment, opinion or understanding (which in no way affect truth).

Anyway, we’re all good, I think.

Blessings
That’s quite what I was trying to say, thank-you. I’m glad the issue was carried out.
 
That’s quite what I was trying to say, thank-you. I’m glad the issue was carried out.
elts, seems like we’re on the same page. I’d like to see how the Magisterium words it, because I’d be a bit surprised to see the word “truth” used in a relative sense. I think that’s what FanChan was articulating, that the word “truth” is (or should be) reserved for the absolute, and that anything relative is described most appropriately using words such as judgment, opinion or understanding (which in no way affect truth).

Anyway, we’re all good, I think.

Blessings
Words can be so confusing. I think I was remembering a quote from somewhere that said paraphrased, Each of us has our own truth. Now don’t ask me where that came from. It is much clearer when truth is used in correlation with Absolute. I myself have stated several times that judgement, opinion are all relative. In fact, to keep it straight in my little brain I equal opinion with relativism. Now where was that when I needed it. :doh2:

I don’t believe the USCCB used relativism with truth. That is something I misconceived all by myself with no one elses help. Thank goodness for Absolutes.

Peace :getholy:
 
Your perspectives are considerably out of the norm so I wouldn’t expect you to understand.
**My perspectives are decidedly non-Catholic by choice - this does not mean I am “out of the norm”. It means that my years on this planet have given me different experiences, different trials, different disappointments, different challenges than those you have experienced. It’s easier to say I wouldn’t understand than to try to explain it, right?

Limerick**
 
Oh my goodness! Semantics, rhetoric etc. will not get us anywhere.

One truth, Thou shalt not murder. In any way shape or form. At any stage of life. For any reason.

That includes the delusional bomber, the sympathetic friend/spouse etc. who helps procure an abortion and those who don’t want to talk about it.

Let’s help the people we can help. Support the Pro Life Movement in whatever way, large or small, that we can support it. Take a stand. March, pray, speak, stand up and be counted. No more fence sitting.

We cannot change the world on our own. Number one fact. Only God through prayer can. But, He will not impose His rule, we must use our “free will” as given. That is our freedom and our burden.

If one doesn’t believe in God then the same rule applies in a humanistic/ecological way. Dead is dead and we cannot change this fact. All life deserves to live. Human as well as seal, plant, bird or fish.

God bless us all and may His mercy shine upon us. All non-God folks can ignore this line.
 
Allowing them to harm themselves in ignorance while you show nothing but apathy can only come from disdain.
“So do you think that that same pregnant woman instead of considering an abortion were not pregnant and considering doing drugs, committing prostitution, or engaging in binging and purging would you still advocate for her right to choose what to do with her “own” body?” ~ royal archer

**Is the quote immediately above what you’re referring to? If it continues to become more and more complex and time-consuming to respond to you because I have to wade through post after post to figure out what you’re trying to discuss then I will step back and decline to engage in the discussion.

Allowing these women to “harm themselves in ignorance”, you say. In 2009, a person who is unaware of the effects of drugs is living in a cult or under a rock. And as you may or may not know, different drugs have different effects on people, and it is an individual matter and not uniform across the board. A woman considering “committing” prostitution is likely doing it for drug money or out of desperation to support herself. She knows that, with the exception of Nevada and Rhode Island, prostitution is illegal in this country. She knows the risks. Most are regularly tested for HIV, but the disease continues to take a serious toll. I regularly worked in Nevada in the 1980s and never met an “ignorant prostitute”. As for binging and purging, I would have no more control over another person’s bulimia than I would over his or her alcoholism or heroin addiction. These are compulsions with serious physical, mental, emotional and physical components. I’m no psychiatrist, nor am I a talk therapist or a spiritual adviser. There is nothing I could do to prevent a bulimic’s compulsivity.

None of these women is ignorant. They all make an initial choice which seems to them reasonable at the time. It can then spiral out of control, or they can have an epiphany and take steps to correct their behaviors. We cannot make them “act right”. They must experience the desperation themselves. If any of them hits bottom and comes to me to discuss this desperation, that is when I will share my own experience with them. Otherwise, I might be enabling them to continue on a treacherous path if I interrupt God’s plan for them. Some will die. Some will clean up and lead productive lives. Some will clean up and slip over and over. We all have our crosses to bear. Unless asked for help I will not pick up another’s cross.

So, yes, I still advocate for her right to choose.

Limerick **
 
You can hardly consider your self to not be involved. By posting here you have decided to get involved. And, your posts have been advocating a position which will lead to more innocent deaths. Why? Are you pro abortion? Are you lonely? Are yoiu trying to rationalize bad decisions you have made in the past? Are you trying to come to grips with what you have done? Obviously you have experienced a few demons in your life. There are organizations out there who welcome a chance to help you.
**I have chosen my “organizations” extremely carefully. You ain’t one of 'em.

Limerick**
 
Not all choices are good or should be allowed. That you have the pwoer to act wrongly in no way proves it should be allowed.
**Perhaps they should not be “allowed”, but poor choices are made daily by millions. Regardless of the permissibility of these choices, they continue to be made, sometimes with impunity.

As my Argentinian fertility specialist says, “What to do?”

Limerick**
 
**My perspectives are decidedly non-Catholic by choice - this does not mean I am “out of the norm”. It means that my years on this planet have given me different experiences, different trials, different disappointments, different challenges than those you have experienced. It’s easier to say I wouldn’t understand than to try to explain it, right?

Limerick**
But looking out for one another is not unique to Catholics it is a stable of all civilized societies.

I believe your self proffessed views of logic will make it imposible to explain this to you.
 
“So do you think that that same pregnant woman instead of considering an abortion were not pregnant and considering doing drugs, committing prostitution, or engaging in binging and purging would you still advocate for her right to choose what to do with her “own” body?” ~ royal archer

**Is the quote immediately above what you’re referring to? If it continues to become more and more complex and time-consuming to respond to you because I have to wade through post after post to figure out what you’re trying to discuss then I will step back and decline to engage in the discussion.

Allowing these women to “harm themselves in ignorance”, you say. In 2009, a person who is unaware of the effects of drugs is living in a cult or under a rock. And as you may or may not know, different drugs have different effects on people, and it is an individual matter and not uniform across the board. A woman considering “committing” prostitution is likely doing it for drug money or out of desperation to support herself. She knows that, with the exception of Nevada and Rhode Island, prostitution is illegal in this country. She knows the risks. Most are regularly tested for HIV, but the disease continues to take a serious toll. I regularly worked in Nevada in the 1980s and never met an “ignorant prostitute”. As for binging and purging, I would have no more control over another person’s bulimia than I would over his or her alcoholism or heroin addiction. These are compulsions with serious physical, mental, emotional and physical components. I’m no psychiatrist, nor am I a talk therapist or a spiritual adviser. There is nothing I could do to prevent a bulimic’s compulsivity.

None of these women is ignorant. They all make an initial choice which seems to them reasonable at the time. It can then spiral out of control, or they can have an epiphany and take steps to correct their behaviors. We cannot make them “act right”. They must experience the desperation themselves. If any of them hits bottom and comes to me to discuss this desperation, that is when I will share my own experience with them. Otherwise, I might be enabling them to continue on a treacherous path if I interrupt God’s plan for them. Some will die. Some will clean up and lead productive lives. Some will clean up and slip over and over. We all have our crosses to bear. Unless asked for help I will not pick up another’s cross.

So, yes, I still advocate for her right to choose.

Limerick **
By stating “seems to them reasonable at the time.” you appear to acknowledge that the individual in the proceding scenario is making a decision that is less than completly reasonable. The reason I was asking such a question was because I was probing to try to find some area where you would be willing to show active compasion and try to help someone who was harming themselves. I guess I was searching in vain.
 
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