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royal_archer
Guest
This isn’t a matter of atonement. You seem to be in great personal pain over what has tranpired in your past, as highlighted by your comment above. Maybe they can help.
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royal_archer
Guest
The point is do we allow them to make bad choices that harm others with out reprocusions or do we set up an infrastructure that punishes those who harm others.**Perhaps they should not be “allowed”, but poor choices are made daily by millions. Regardless of the permissibility of these choices, they continue to be made, sometimes with impunity.
As my Argentinian fertility specialist says, “What to do?”
Limerick**
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limerick
Guest
But looking out for one another is not unique to Catholics it is a stable of all civilized societies.
**You mean “staple”? **
I believe your self proffessed views of logic will make it imposible to explain this to you.
I have made absolutely no “self-professed views of logic”! I have stated my position and have made it abundantly clear to you that I do not base my life or derive my inspiration from “logic”. So let’s look at what is really being said here and not take liberties just to try to get a jab in, all right?
Nice try, but I’m not buyin it. No, actually, that wasn’t even a nice try. Do you think you can ask a question without condensing my thoughts into an inaccurate interpretation of what I’ve written? Can you make your observations without stretching the meaning of what I’ve written? Really, disagreeing with me is totally kosher. I’d prefer, however, that you not feel compelled to distort my posts.
Limerick
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limerick
Guest
**Have you never made a decision, acted upon it, and found out later that it was not in your best interests? Have you never taken a job, found the first 90 days to be a pink cloud experience, and then discovered that your supervisor is actually a back-stabbing wench? Countless examples are available to explain what I’ve tried to explain to you. Come on.By stating “seems to them reasonable at the time.” you appear to acknowledge that the individual in the proceding scenario is making a decision that is less than completly reasonable. The reason I was asking such a question was because I was probing to try to find some area where you would be willing to show active compasion and try to help someone who was harming themselves. I guess I was searching in vain.
I help when I am asked, not before. How many times do I have to tell you this? You have not been searching in vain. You have been handed a platter of truth and turned your nose up at it.
Limerick**
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limerick
Guest
Well, you choose:This isn’t a matter of atonement. You seem to be in great personal pain over what has tranpired in your past, as highlighted by your comment above. Maybe they can help.
drug addiction
alcoholism
abortion
rape
incest
petty theft
deportation from a foreign country for possession
and on and on and on
Now, who would be proud of that? And yet - AND YET - I have confessed my sins, received absolution, given a penance which I performed, and not repeated any of the above actions.
I’m not in pain. I have been shaped by these things, but they don’t pain me. They give me a deep well from which to draw when I am in a position to be of service to other human beings. But I will not interfere in their choices, their activities, their decisions. I wait until God inspires them to ask for help. Anything I do before the right time is premature and may interfere with God’s handling of the situation.
I have a complete network of people who support me and have done so since I first entered therapy in 1965. The reason they support me is because I asked them to.
Limerick
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limerick
Guest
**You cannot punish them unless and until they harm others. Catch 22.The point is do we allow them to make bad choices that harm others with out reprocusions or do we set up an infrastructure that punishes those who harm others.
L**
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royal_archer
Guest
This is what I was refering to when referencing your view of logic.I believe your self proffessed views of logic will make it imposible to explain this to you.
I have made absolutely no “self-professed views of logic”! I have stated my position and have made it abundantly clear to you that I do not base my life or derive my inspiration from “logic”. So let’s look at what is really being said here and not take liberties just to try to get a jab in, all right?
Nice try, but I’m not buyin it. No, actually, that wasn’t even a nice try. Do you think you can ask a question without condensing my thoughts into an inaccurate interpretation of what I’ve written? Can you make your observations without stretching the meaning of what I’ve written? Really, disagreeing with me is totally kosher. I’d prefer, however, that you not feel compelled to distort my posts.
Limerick
And thanks for flagging the typo. I did mean staple.**
I will not see your logic because I do not live in a world of logic. To me it is mathematics and schedules and angles and hard surfaces. My life has been built upon my experiences. So, yes, I have personal history that has influenced my viewpoint. Who doesn’t?
**
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limerick
Guest
This is what I was refering to when referencing your view of logic.
**Explain to me how religion, how faith, is based on logic.
Limerick**
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royal_archer
Guest
I have made lots of mistakes especially when I did not head the advice of others. Now that I am older I take the wisdom of others much more seriously. I also try to pass on the wisdom I have attained. That is what civilized people do, we look out for each other. I understand and am saddened that you do not see things the same way.**Have you never made a decision, acted upon it, and found out later that it was not in your best interests? Have you never taken a job, found the first 90 days to be a pink cloud experience, and then discovered that your supervisor is actually a back-stabbing wench? Countless examples are available to explain what I’ve tried to explain to you. Come on.
I help when I am asked, not before. How many times do I have to tell you this? You have not been searching in vain. You have been handed a platter of truth and turned your nose up at it.
Limerick**
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royal_archer
Guest
Sio because you can not hear the screams of the innocent children being murdered, they are not worthy of your help? You are being helped, why won’t you return the favor and help these children?Well, you choose:
drug addiction
alcoholism
abortion
rape
incest
petty theft
deportation from a foreign country for possession
and on and on and on
Now, who would be proud of that? And yet - AND YET - I have confessed my sins, received absolution, given a penance which I performed, and not repeated any of the above actions.
I’m not in pain. I have been shaped by these things, but they don’t pain me. They give me a deep well from which to draw when I am in a position to be of service to other human beings. But I will not interfere in their choices, their activities, their decisions. I wait until God inspires them to ask for help. Anything I do before the right time is premature and may interfere with God’s handling of the situation.
I have a complete network of people who support me and have done so since I first entered therapy in 1965. The reason they support me is because I asked them to.
Limerick
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royal_archer
Guest
I agree we should not punish baby killers until they actually contribute the to murder of babies.**You cannot punish them unless and until they harm others. Catch 22.
L**
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royal_archer
Guest
royal archer;5353157:
This thread is not about faith and religion it is about the murder of innocent children. Logically speaking if we as a society and as a species do not protect our young we will cease to exist. If we do not protect those un able to defend themselves, we will have chaos.This is what I was refering to when referencing your view of logic.
**Explain to me how religion, how faith, is based on logic.
Limerick**
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limerick
Guest
When someone has the right and the audacity to call a woman who has had an abortion a “murderer”, the conversation ends.Sio because you can not hear the screams of the innocent children being murdered, they are not worthy of your help? You are being helped, why won’t you return the favor and help these children?
Limerick
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royal_archer
Guest
But that is the reality of the situation. How can you consider the killing of an innocent person who is not an imminent threat (self defense) to be anything but murder?When someone has the right and the audacity to call a woman who has had an abortion a “murderer”, the conversation ends.
Limerick
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Eddie_Mac
Guest
The conversation ends just as abruptly as the life that is sucked out of the womb?When someone has the right and the audacity to call a woman who has had an abortion a “murderer”, the conversation ends.
Limerick
Eddie Mac
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elts1956
Guest
How about offering to help? I understand, I think, what you are saying about imposing your will on someone else by helping when not asked, but the person you are asking can always refuse. Some people have a very hard time asking for help. I know I do.**Have you never made a decision, acted upon it, and found out later that it was not in your best interests? Have you never taken a job, found the first 90 days to be a pink cloud experience, and then discovered that your supervisor is actually a back-stabbing wench? Countless examples are available to explain what I’ve tried to explain to you. Come on.
I help when I am asked, not before. How many times do I have to tell you this? You have not been searching in vain. You have been handed a platter of truth and turned your nose up at it.
Limerick**
We all have choices to make. I would rather make a wrong choice than do nothing. (which is still a choice). At least one is moving and not just standing around whining.
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St_Francis
Guest
**“Termination of a pregnancy” IS killing an innocent child; **you cannot differentiate between the two. You cannot say, oh, it’s ok to kill this class of human beings and have any leg to stand on when it comes to killing other classes of human beings.**
I do not advocate the “killing of innocent children”. I advocate for a woman’s legal right to choose whether or not to continue with or terminate a pregnancy…Limerick **
From a legal standpoint in the USA in 2009, yes, abortion is an option; however, is that the kind of nation that we want to live in–one in which it is an option to completely eliminate all rights of one human being? Well, for those of us who believe that abortion should be illegal, it is not.
You say that because abortion is legal that you are non-interventionist. In that case, why are you responding in threads about abortion? You are intervening when you do that. What are you advocating? You say that you are non-interventionist–is that what you are advocating?
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St_Francis
Guest
I hope that your helping out in Texas went well. I guess that you are back now?** I can spend my days helping my friend in Texas who has asked me to help him as his wife is released from (name removed by moderator)atient rehab. He asked, St. F. I won’t push, but I do have my own little mission which I’m good at. And it comes from my e-x-p-e-r-i-e-n-c-e as a drunk and an addict…**
I am saying that many, many women who are grappling with an unexpected pregnancy are already in volatile marriages, violent relationships, dire straits; are addicts or alcoholics; are homeless, etc.
Now, you have said that you are a recovering alcoholic, that people have to hit bottom, all that.
Here you have described a situation in which women sometimes find themselves on their way to the bottom: bad relationship, substance abuse, etc. And then they find that they are pregnant.
I would like to propose that the solution to the problem of their pregnancy is *not *abortion, but that the result of ending up in a situation in which they feel that they “need” an abortion is the problem, and that if abortion were illegal, maybe their pregnancy would be a place of hitting bottom and thus turning to recovery in order to pull their lives back together. To me, it seems that abortion is a way to cover up the “bottom,” and thus continue in the grim life you have described.
In the same way that it seems that abortion has been used to cover up situations of sexual abuse, abortion is a way of covering up the reality of this type of lifestyle you describe. Abortion thus is not a solution but yet another form of enabling which allows people to escape from the consequences of their actions and decisions. It seems to only be an unfortunate side-effect for you that an innocent life is destroyed in the process.
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limerick
Guest
**I advocate for every individual to exercise his or her free will without hindrance by others. If the act they choose is illegal then they will likely have consequences. If the act they choose is “immoral” then they will have spiritual or after-life consequences.**“Termination of a pregnancy” IS killing an innocent child; **you cannot differentiate between the two. You cannot say, oh, it’s ok to kill this class of human beings and have any leg to stand on when it comes to killing other classes of human beings.
From a legal standpoint in the USA in 2009, yes, abortion is an option; however, is that the kind of nation that we want to live in–one in which it is an option to completely eliminate all rights of one human being? Well, for those of us who believe that abortion should be illegal, it is not.
You say that because abortion is legal that you are non-interventionist. In that case, why are you responding in threads about abortion? You are intervening when you do that. What are you advocating? You say that you are non-interventionist–is that what you are advocating?
This is obviously not the kind of nation that you want to live in. So get busy.
Limerick **
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limerick
Guest
**Who’s whining? I help when someone asks for help. The asking is an indicator that a person has reached a crisis level and there is enough humility involved that he or she might actually be able to hear and understand and apply anything I have to say. That person is also free to reject what I offer.How about offering to help? I understand, I think, what you are saying about imposing your will on someone else by helping when not asked, but the person you are asking can always refuse. Some people have a very hard time asking for help. I know I do.
We all have choices to make. I would rather make a wrong choice than do nothing. (which is still a choice). At least one is moving and not just standing around whining.
I don’t understand having to get one’s hands all over another person’s dilemma.
Limerick**
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