Anybody out there "pro-choice"?

[SteveGC]

L,

I see that it’s difficult to accept the notion of “murder” as the descriptive word for the act of abortion. It seems to imply that women who choose it are “murderers”, possessing the same diabolical intent to violently kill another as a hardened criminal, which we all know is not true.

Indeed, we have to be prudent in our choice of words, but this is not so simple. As you know, the pro-life movement is based on the premise that abortion is the termination of human life. By definition, this is also called “murder” because it involves the termination of life of a human who is not choosing to end their own life, or who does not pose a willful threat to other human lives. On the other hand, the pro-choice movement is strengthened by the play on words, the watering down of the act of abortion by using terms such as “terminate pregnancy” or “remove the fertilized egg”. No mention of life or human or even baby.

In a sense, I don’t like the term “murder” when speaking to someone who has already chosen and gone through with abortion, because it only spawns an air of accusation and guilt. It is, however, a useful and most appropriate word otherwise…to describe the “act”, and not necessarily the one effecting that act.

 

[FanChan]

And if you look at abortion for what it really is, you wouldn’t be for it. If you had to spend a day in an abortion clinic and had to stand there watching this “procedure,” you’d think differently. If you could face the pictures, the surgery, the blood, and the end game, you’d think differently. If you had to counsel the millions of women who regret what they did and who wake up in a cold sweat the rest of their lives with nightmares, you’d think differently. From where you’re sitting, abortion is like the choice to go with a Whopper or a McChicken Sandwich. Fries or Onion Rings. It’s theoretical and trivial from your vantage point, not a life or death moral precipice.

Please take the time to look at where L is actually coming from before you say things as judgemental and downright cruel as some of the things you’ve said in your post are to someone who’s coming from where she is. This woman has gotten enough animosity from people on this thread as it is, myself included in certain respects, and none of it is called for. I wish that everyone here would stop assuming the person on the other end of the argument has no idea and no experience with what they’re talking about. We’re all passionate on where we stand for a reason. Don’t be cruel or act like a bully to push your point.

 

[SteveGC]

And if you look at abortion for what it really is, you wouldn’t be for it. If you had to spend a day in an abortion clinic and had to stand there watching this “procedure,” you’d think differently. If you could face the pictures, the surgery, the blood, and the end game, you’d think differently. If you had to counsel the millions of women who regret what they did and who wake up in a cold sweat the rest of their lives with nightmares, you’d think differently. From where you’re sitting, abortion is like the choice to go with a Whopper or a McChicken Sandwich. Fries or Onion Rings. It’s theoretical and trivial from your vantage point, not a life or death moral precipice.

This post amounts to moral cowardice and I’m sickened to read it, period. May God have mercy on you, enlighten you, and I pray for your conversion. This is sad stuff!

Gh, your post was good, up until all this stuff here. You should probably go back through this thread and read more of limerick’s story. Not that you don’t have good points, but you might’ve worded things more delicately if you were aware of some of her past which she has graciously revealed here.

 

[limerick]

Wow, this is scary stuff. So if you had lived in Nazi Germany circa 1942 or so, you would’ve been one of those, “hey, I’m not killing Jews and I personally think they’re human beings. But I do recognize Herr Himmler and Fuhrer Hitler don’t believe they’re human beings. As a result, I respect the rights of my fellow Germans to eradicate them, turn them into lamp shades, rip their teeth out, dehumanize them, and slaughter them in death camps. I wouldn’t do it myself, trust me! But it’s ok for them. Let their conscience guide them? Who am I to say that they’re people? I can’t PROVE that really. Who can really prove anything, am I right? Heck, whatever floats your boat. There’s no subjective truth so just go with your gut. Hitler’s gut and my gut are different but I respect his holocausts.”

That’s the argument you’re making that can be applied anywhere at anytime. Would you have been ok with slavery in the South because it’s “live and let live?” How about sufferage? How about the laws in some states that forbade interracial marriages? Where does it end with the whole “live and let live” burying your head in the sand?

A fetus either IS or IS NOT a human being, a person or not a person. If it is a person, you do indeed personally have blood on your hands for voting and encouraging a policy of allowing this slaughter. It’s like walking by a woman being raped and just turning the other cheek, keep on walkin’. That’s a form of assistance to the rapists. Your view is to not take any position about the viability or life of the fetus and hope it’s not human. Well it is human and a majority of Americans are pro-life if you follow the recent Gallup Polls and other opinion polls. More Americans are pro-life than not. And if you look at abortion for what it really is, you wouldn’t be for it. If you had to spend a day in an abortion clinic and had to stand there watching this “procedure,” you’d think differently. If you could face the pictures, the surgery, the blood, and the end game, you’d think differently. If you had to counsel the millions of women who regret what they did and who wake up in a cold sweat the rest of their lives with nightmares, you’d think differently. From where you’re sitting, abortion is like the choice to go with a Whopper or a McChicken Sandwich. Fries or Onion Rings. It’s theoretical and trivial from your vantage point, not a life or death moral precipice.

This post amounts to moral cowardice and I’m sickened to read it, period. May God have mercy on you, enlighten you, and I pray for your conversion. This is sad stuff!

**I did not live in Nazi Germany in 1942. I was born 10 years after that. I am a product of my times.

I did** have to spend a day in an abortion clinic. I not only stood there watching the procedure, I underwent the procedure, and I have not one day since then felt differently about abortion than I do right this minute. No one has had to counsel millions of women, so if you could just dial it back there a little bit I could more clearly see your point, even if I don’t agree with it. I have never had a nightmare about my abortion. From where I’m sitting, abortion is a legal option open to any woman in the United States facing an unwanted pregnancy. I also concede that life is lost in the procedure. I vacuum aspirated a 13-week-old fetus, so don’t you dare tell me I have no idea what I’m talking about or I would somehow feel differently if I were more “aware”. Although it may be a life or death moral precipice, I stood on the precipice only once. I made my choice and now I live with it. Every time another woman chooses to stand on that moral precipice, I am not standing there with her. That’s her choice, her conversation with God, if she has a God, her action and her consequence. I confessed, I did my penance, I never repeated the act and if the priest says I’m absolved of my sin, and God apparently is satisfied with that, then you can get off my case this instant.

Limerick

 

[limerick]

Maybe that is all she would need to hear from another warm body.

**Let’s hope she wouldn’t have to hop in the sack to hear it.

L**

 

[limerick]

L,

I see that it’s difficult to accept the notion of “murder” as the descriptive word for the act of abortion. It seems to imply that women who choose it are “murderers”, possessing the same diabolical intent to violently kill another as a hardened criminal, which we all know is not true.

Indeed, we have to be prudent in our choice of words, but this is not so simple. As you know, the pro-life movement is based on the premise that abortion is the termination of human life. By definition, this is also called “murder” because it involves the termination of life of a human who is not choosing to end their own life, or who does not pose a willful threat to other human lives. On the other hand, the pro-choice movement is strengthened by the play on words, the watering down of the act of abortion by using terms such as “terminate pregnancy” or “remove the fertilized egg”. No mention of life or human or even baby.

In a sense, I don’t like the term “murder” when speaking to someone who has already chosen and gone through with abortion, because it only spawns an air of accusation and guilt. It is, however, a useful and most appropriate word otherwise…to describe the “act”, and not necessarily the one effecting that act.

**Fair enough.

L**

 

[royal_archer]

Originally Posted by royal archer
I said: Please provide the number of the post where I labled someone as a murder (other than a generic/situation specific role)

You said: In post 567, with full knowledge that I have had an abortion, you wrote: “Sio because you can not hear the screams of the innocent children being murdered, they are not worthy of your help? You are being helped, why won’t you return the favor and help these children?”
In post 569, you reinforced the thinly-veiled insult thus: “This thread is not about faith and religion it is about the murder of innocent children.”

Maybe my eyes are going batty from to much spider solitaire, but where in those quotes did I refer to someone specifically as a “murderer”

(for those who have not endured the previous long exchange… Murder refers to a specific act but does not imply a judgement on the character or nature of the person committing the act. Calling someone a murderer normally implies a judgement about the person, unless used as a generic description of a role solely related to the act in discussion. As an example I have done welding but am not a welder. I seems as though some feel any acknowledgement of an act committed is a direct condemnation of anyone who has ever committed the act. I disagree. for instance If I say getting drunk is bad and further clarify that consumption of alcohol above point x is getting drunk; I am not calling anyone who ever drank a drunker.)

I said: Murder comes under more “headings” than just immorality. There are also social, ethical, and natural law reasons why murder is wrong. Abortion is also a violation of the babies human rights, it is a violation of the father’s rigths, and it is a situation where big business exploits the vulnerable to make a quick buck.

you said: And here you continue. I am responding because you asked the question, although I reiterate the fact that I find your reference tasteless in view of the fact that you know I (and perhaps a few other readers) have chosen abortion as our only option to continuing our own lives. Yeah, how selfish was that?

Should I also be offended everytime someone on this thread says something that brings up a bad thought from my past? Obviously not.

I think my point of view is pretty well established. If you don’t want to hear it, don’t ask me about it. If you ask about it, you must want to hear it unless you are hoping that eventually I’ll answer differently, My mind is open to change if there is a rationale reason. until that reason comes I predict my view isn’t going to change much.

Tell me, how can this thread NOT be about faith and religion? I’m the non-practicing Catholic here - have we reversed roles?

Limerick

Faith and religion are aspects but I look at it this way we are on a boat going to God’s kingdom. How I behave on the boat will impact whether I get to enter when we get there. For that reason (and related moral reasons) I act in a certain way. If you want to act differently and loose out on that opportunity I will not force you ( I will advise and attempt to convince but not force). However if your acting differntly goes beyond just the immoral and gets to the point where it is impacting others things will change. We, the rest of the passengers on this journey have a right to continue our journey in relative peace and safety. Abortion impacts both it is immoral and it is a violation of the rules of an orderly society. The thread is a discussion of the legal ramifications of abortion or in other words how do we handle it on this boat regardless of how it will be dealt with in the comming kingdom.

 

[royal_archer]

L,

I see that it’s difficult to accept the notion of “murder” as the descriptive word for the act of abortion. It seems to imply that women who choose it are “murderers”, possessing the same diabolical intent to violently kill another as a hardened criminal, which we all know is not true.

Indeed, we have to be prudent in our choice of words, but this is not so simple. As you know, the pro-life movement is based on the premise that abortion is the termination of human life. By definition, this is also called “murder” because it involves the termination of life of a human who is not choosing to end their own life, or who does not pose a willful threat to other human lives. On the other hand, the pro-choice movement is strengthened by the play on words, the watering down of the act of abortion by using terms such as “terminate pregnancy” or “remove the fertilized egg”. No mention of life or human or even baby.

In a sense, I don’t like the term “murder” when speaking to someone who has already chosen and gone through with abortion, because it only spawns an air of accusation and guilt. It is, however, a useful and most appropriate word otherwise…to describe the “act”, and not necessarily the one effecting that act.

Well stated

and to work from a point you made, while we use honnest terms here in a catholic forum, it is advisable to use less blunt terms in other circumstances.

 

[royal_archer]

Wow, this is scary stuff. So if you had lived in Nazi Germany circa 1942 or so, you would’ve been one of those, "hey, I’m not killing Jews and I personally think they’re human beings. But I do recognize Herr Himmler and Fuhrer Hitler don’t believe they’re human beings. …

To reiterate what I think (hope) you mean: This is a condemnation of an attitude of passive advocacy which is currently being expressed, not a commentary on a person who has done something wrong in the past.

 

[limerick]

Maybe my eyes are going batty from to much spider solitaire, but where in those quotes did I refer to someone specifically as a “murderer”

(for those who have not endured the previous long exchange… Murder refers to a specific act but does not imply a judgement on the character or nature of the person committing the act. Calling someone a murderer normally implies a judgement about the person, unless used as a generic description of a role solely related to the act in discussion. As an example I have done welding but am not a welder. I seems as though some feel any acknowledgement of an act committed is a direct condemnation of anyone who has ever committed the act. I disagree. for instance If I say getting drunk is bad and further clarify that consumption of alcohol above point x is getting drunk; I am not calling anyone who ever drank a drunker.)

Should I also be offended everytime someone on this thread says something that brings up a bad thought from my past? Obviously not.

I think my point of view is pretty well established. If you don’t want to hear it, don’t ask me about it. If you ask about it, you must want to hear it unless you are hoping that eventually I’ll answer differently, My mind is open to change if there is a rationale reason. until that reason comes I predict my view isn’t going to change much.

Faith and religion are aspects but I look at it this way we are on a boat going to God’s kingdom. How I behave on the boat will impact whether I get to enter when we get there. For that reason (and related moral reasons) I act in a certain way. If you want to act differently and loose out on that opportunity I will not force you ( I will advise and attempt to convince but not force). However if your acting differntly goes beyond just the immoral and gets to the point where it is impacting others things will change. We, the rest of the passengers on this journey have a right to continue our journey in relative peace and safety. Abortion impacts both it is immoral and it is a violation of the rules of an orderly society. The thread is a discussion of the legal ramifications of abortion or in other words how do we handle it on this boat regardless of how it will be dealt with in the comming kingdom.

**So now the thread is a discussion of the LEGAL RAMIFICATIONS OF ABORTION. Currently, there is none.

Thread closed.

Limerick**

 

[royal_archer]

**So now the thread is a discussion of the LEGAL RAMIFICATIONS OF ABORTION. Currently, there is none.

Thread closed.

Limerick**

December 5th 1865: slavery was legal should the case have been closed back then?

August 17th, 1920: women could be excluded from voting should that case have been closed back then?

Today in most states gay’s can not legally marry should all discussion about legalization of that act be closed?

Hopefully abortion will once again be illegal.

 

[limerick]

December 5th 1865: slavery was legal should the case have been closed back then?

August 17th, 1920: women could be excluded from voting should that case have been closed back then?

Today in most states gay’s can not legally marry should all discussion about legalization of that act be closed?

Hopefully abortion will once again be illegal.

**A drunk once came up to me in a bar where I was working and said “Baby, you need to UP-DATE yo’ tone-ALITIES!”

Consider and apply.

Limerick
**

 

[kage_ar]

I lived in a shack in the mountains, nearest town 25 miles down the mountain, population 600. One general store, one diner, one post office, one liquor store. No adoption agencies (!) I was on food stamps, had no car, no family, had no money of my own. A friend went to town every 30 days to buy groceries. Town was 35 miles away. Food for 7 had to last for the month. Yes, these were seven unrelated people. Churches? I lived there for a year and never saw one, but I didn’t get away from the house much. Synagogues and mosques? There wasn’t a Jew or Muslim in the entire state. The bridge that spanned the Potomac had recently had its sign removed, one which said, "Nier, don’t let the sun set on you here!"**

We’re talkin’ remote.

Limerick

And yet they had an abortion clinic. That is mind boggling.

That aside, in the United States today, crisis pregnancy centers by far outnumber abortion clinics. Every woman who has access to an abortion has access to people who will pay her medical bills, give her mental and emotional and if wanted spiritual support, help her find a place to live and work or school, a place for her child or WIC to and social services to raise that child herself, etc. As today every pregnant woman in this country does have options, why kill the babies?

 

[limerick]

And yet they had an abortion clinic. That is mind boggling.

That aside, in the United States today, crisis pregnancy centers by far outnumber abortion clinics. Every woman who has access to an abortion has access to people who will pay her medical bills, give her mental and emotional and if wanted spiritual support, help her find a place to live and work or school, a place for her child or WIC to and social services to raise that child herself, etc. As today every pregnant woman in this country does have options, why kill the babies?

**If you had kept up with all the posts, you would know that the abortion clinic was in another state, a two and one-half hour drive from the house where I was living. The only new thing in the little town nearest my home is a traffic light, installed in the 1980s.

And as to the second part of your post: why, indeed? What makes women opt for abortion over birth? Every pregnant woman in this country does have options today, including abortion. There are millions of reasons why the crisis pregnancy centers have a lesser appeal.

Limerick**

 

[St_Francis]

** It can then spiral out of control, or they can have an epiphany and take steps to correct their behaviors. We cannot make them “act right”. They must experience the desperation themselves. If any of them hits bottom and comes to me to discuss this desperation, that is when I will share my own experience with them. Otherwise, I might be enabling them to continue on a treacherous path if I interrupt God’s plan for them. Some will die. Some will clean up and lead productive lives. Some will clean up and slip over and over. We all have our crosses to bear. Unless asked for help I will not pick up another’s cross.

So, yes, I still advocate for her right to choose.

Limerick **

I am saying that many, many women who are grappling with an unexpected pregnancy are already in volatile marriages, violent relationships, dire straits; are addicts or alcoholics; are homeless, etc. …

You are talking here about hitting bottom, and how reaching out to help someone might in some way *enable *them to continue in their bad choices.

Well, you know what I think is enabling them to carry on in their bad choices? The availability of abortion. Here you have your hypothetical woman who is abusing substances, in a violent relationship, etc. Then she finds that she is pregnant.

Now, this pregnancy, this baby inside of her could be a help to her hitting bottom. She might feel that desperation that you spoke of. She might look at her situation and see that this is no way for a mother to live. She might opt for adoption for her child, realizing that she doesn’t have the resources to care for her child but determine that she doesn’t want to be in that position again. The thought of a life inside her could cause her to choose to change her life.

But if she can have an abortion, she can wipe all that out. She won’t have to look at her life through the innocent eyes of a child. She won’t have to make the hard decisions about the future of her child. She won’t be forced to consider leaving her abusive relationship for the sake of another; she won’t be forced to consider her substance abuse; with an abortion, she will be free to do what is easiest for her, which is not to re-think her life and make changes but to carry on doing what is familiar to her.

In reality, the “hard” cases which those who support the continued legality of abortion bring up have no rational basis. The innocent child of a rape can be subject to a more stringent penalty than the *rapist *is. The woman in a violent relationship can evade the knowledge that she needs to stop enabling the abusive jerk. The victim of incest or sex abuse can continue to be victimized as the “evidence” is wiped away.

The reality is that abortion kills an innocent and helpless human being. Abortion *should *be illegal–we should protect to our weakest brothers and sisters. All the hard-luck stories are about the mother; who considers the story of the unborn child killed in the womb?

 

[elts1956]

**Let’s hope she wouldn’t have to hop in the sack to hear it.

L**

I don’t think she would if she was standing outside an abortion clinic crying as I described.:twocents:

 

[royal_archer]

**A drunk once came up to me in a bar where I was working and said “Baby, you need to UP-DATE yo’ tone-ALITIES!”

Consider and apply.

Limerick
**

WHAT???

 

[limerick]

WHAT???

**He meant he wanted me to quit playing that 40-year-old music and try to impress him with something contemporary and fresh.

Limerick**

 

[limerick]

I don’t think she would if she was standing outside an abortion clinic crying as I described.:twocents:

**But you don’t know for sure, do you?

L
**

 

[AHapka]

**He meant he wanted me to quit playing that 40-year-old music and try to impress him with something contemporary and fresh. **

Limerick

If it’s not 80’s music, it’s really not that good…