The point isn’t just that it’s alive. Any cell that grows is alive. The point is that it’s human life. Being human life, and perfectly innocent, it has the right to live, and to be protected under the law. The right to live trumps the right to be comfortable.Can someone on the anti-abortion side explain why so many anti-abortion people concentrate their arguments on the fact that the fetus is alive? Is anyone disputing that? Does anyone argue the fetus is dead?
I’m afraid I must be missing the point. Everyone agrees the fetus is alive, yet anti-abortion folks spend lots of time telling us it is alive. There must be some reason. What is it?
OK. Thanks. If that’s their argument, then I’d suggest it would much more effective to just say that rather then repeating “it’s alive.”The point isn’t just that it’s alive. Any cell that grows is alive. The point is that it’s human life. Being human life, and perfectly innocent, it has the right to live, and to be protected under the law. The right to live trumps the right to be comfortable.
I’m afraid I don’t really see where you’re coming from. I don’t know a lot of pro-lifers that just repeat ‘it’s alive’, or even use that as an argument.OK. Thanks. If that’s their argument, then I’d suggest it would much more effective to just say that rather then repeating “it’s alive.”
**OK. Thanks. If that’s their argument, then I’d suggest it would much more effective to just say that rather then repeating “it’s alive.”
You really love to nitpick, don’t you? I guess without any other good argument against some of this stuff, that’s all that’s left. Innocent under the LAW. You do love to stress the legality of things. No human has the legal right to put another human to death when they have done nothing wrong. Precisely why abortion is such an atrocity under the law, even without any talk of God.**
Perfectly innocent but born with Original Sin? Oh. Not** perfectly innocent.
Limerick
Is the inherent value of a human dependent on its innocence? If so, the value is not inherent, but conditional. This reminds me of my Driver’s Ed. class (“Never run over innocent bystanders!”). Would the action be permissible if the bystanders in question were guilty? If not, why does it matter that the fetus is innocent?The point isn’t just that it’s alive. Any cell that grows is alive. The point is that it’s human life. Being human life, and perfectly innocent, it has the right to live, and to be protected under the law. The right to live trumps the right to be comfortable.
Forgiveness is a difficult ‘thing’ to get. If it hasn’t gotten rid of your anger or done the other things you mentioned, possibly you need to discuss the concept.*"Since murder is grave matter, the Church holds murder and anger to violate the Fifth commandment, therefore, anger is grave matter and will be judged accordingly.
Are you willing to challenge Jesus on how He will judge?"*
**I am not satisfied that you have interpreted these quotations correctly and so I am willing to challenge you on where you connect the dots between murder being a grave matter and anger being an equally grave matter; or have I misunderstood you?
I understand the concept of forgiveness, but I don’t find it very practical. To offer it has never opened my heart or cleared my conscience or abated my anger. It has more often than not opened the door to further abuses from those I would seek to forgive. And I have found on this forum that God forgives, but only if we subject ourselves to ridicule, to torment, to judgment and scorn through specially-appointed Evaluators on CAF.
It’s looking more and more like the solution to life as I know it is to cash out and hold my breath until it all goes away.
Limerick **
Edit: Add to that “mindreaders” on CAF. What a gifted bunch.
No. FanChan didn’t say that the inherent value is dependent on innocence. But “innocent” is a descriptor used to emphasize defenseless humans, perhaps somewhat as an appeal to human emotion to protect it…but I find that pro-life people are prone to describe a baby in the womb as “innocent” because if we limit their description to just “human life” and then emphasize how the Church teaches that the use of lethal force against all human life is prohibited, the pro-choicer often retorts with “but what about the cases where the Church does not fully condemn the killing in self-defense of a deliberate attacker?” Hence, we clarify the human life in the womb as “innocent”…to make the distinction. At least, that’s my take on why the word “innocent” is added.Is the inherent value of a human dependent on its innocence? If so, the value is not inherent, but conditional. This reminds me of my Driver’s Ed. class (“Never run over innocent bystanders!”). Would the action be permissible if the bystanders in question were guilty? If not, why does it matter that the fetus is innocent?
**Great pain over abortion?Forgiveness is a difficult ‘thing’ to get. If it hasn’t gotten rid of your anger or done the other things you mentioned, possibly you need to discuss the concept.
Someone once told me that holding on to anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to feel its effects.
Maybe I infer too much but it seems like you are still in great pain.
If, say, that person you ran over had had a gun out and was trying to shoot someone, he is no longer an ‘innocent bystander’, and you had culpable reason to do what you did. Granted, your actions would still be subject to trial, but it’s far from the same thing as gunning down someone who was just minding their own business.Is the inherent value of a human dependent on its innocence? If so, the value is not inherent, but conditional. This reminds me of my Driver’s Ed. class (“Never run over innocent bystanders!”). Would the action be permissible if the bystanders in question were guilty? If not, why does it matter that the fetus is innocent?
We have to convince someone that it is governments role to protect the weak from being murdered?I don’t think she misunderstands this. Limerick seems to understand perfectly that abortion is evil, and she wishes (or says so) that no one do it. The issue here is that she believes that since God has given us free will, and since we are able to choose abortion, that it is our right to do so.
To continue to push the fact that by being pro-choice she approves of abortion (when in her heart it seems she only approves of the woman having the freedom to make her own mistakes) will continue to run this conversation around in circles. The debate should focus on the fact that while the idea of someone going out and making their own mistakes is understandable, we have the duty to intervene when those mistakes cost other people their lives, in this case the babies.
I’d still like to hear L’s response to the question of if she believes people will do whatever they want, legal or illegal, why she has a problem with abortion becoming illegal. Given that she’s ignored me, would someone else re-pose that question?
Because so many pro abortion people seem to think life begins at birth.Can someone on the anti-abortion side explain why so many anti-abortion people concentrate their arguments on the fact that the fetus is alive? Is anyone disputing that? Does anyone argue the fetus is dead?
I’m afraid I must be missing the point. Everyone agrees the fetus is alive, yet anti-abortion folks spend lots of time telling us it is alive. There must be some reason. What is it?
I’m coming from a state of confusion about why a subset of anti-abortion folks stress the fetus is alive without providing further argument.I’m afraid I don’t really see where you’re coming from. I don’t know a lot of pro-lifers that just repeat ‘it’s alive’, or even use that as an argument.
No. You have to convince government that protection extends to the single cell fertilized egg.We have to convince someone that it is governments role to protect the weak from being murdered?
I am not aware of a single person, pro-abortion or anti-abortion, who contends the fetus is not alive. Are you aware of any? If so, can you let us know who holds that position?Because so many pro abortion people seem to think life begins at birth.
You tell me.**Great pain over abortion?
Limerick**
“will continue to run this conversation around in circles.”We have to convince someone that it is governments role to protect the weak from being murdered?
**No.You tell me.
Really? Seems like you do it all the time.**No.
And why can’t you be direct? This beating around the bush and tit for tat stuff bores me.
Limerick**
Not only that, but a more “liberal” solution to the problem of abortion would be harder for the generally pro-abortion Democrats to pass up. It’s easy for politicians to write off “ban” legislation. Also if the “pro-life” Republicans would be less anti-choice and more pro-life, we might actually get something done with both sides of the isle.I believe that Shannon was trying to make light of the subject at hand. I believe that having an abortion is wrong, let’s leave it at that. But with other comments stating that the government needs to protect its citizens, how about taking care of all citizens including those who cannot pay for health care, are unable to get a sustainable job, educate all appropriately, and help. I feel that if we do all included in this list, abortions and other atrocities will go down.
Revert TSIEG