They already don’t—and it started with artificial birth control. You cannot be pro-abortion and Christian. And we are called on to rebuke sinners. Murdering an innocent is a grave sin.Am I going to be kicked out when I say I’m pro-choice?
First of all: why do we - the christians - have the power to decide over people who have a different religion or belief?
Protection (condoms, pills etc) is by far the best way to prohibit unwanted babies. But I have to draw the line somewhere. I don’t want to grow up in a world where moms and dads do not appreciate the miracle of children.
God bless.
Steve,the problem is, Willie, that no one here really knows what your position actually IS.
You emphasize the ambiguity of ensoulment timing, but you stop there. So all we know that we should infer from you is that the Church doesn’t teach precisely when ensoulment takes place…and that the Church does not contradict Herself.
If your goal is just to state observations, but draw no conclusions (or state your beliefs based on those observations), then how can we really get any meat out of this dialogue?
In the meantime, I have attempted (apparently erroneously) to presume your conclusions based on past things you have revealed to us. As I recall, one of those things was that you felt that it should be understandable to Catholics that society makes their own decisions about when life begins, since Catholics themselves aren’t taught precisely when it begins. I’ve refuted that, and you agreed with me on it. Then your argument is that some Catholics emphatically tell you that ensoulment takes places instantaneously, and you show them (correctly) that the Church makes no such precise claim. But again, the fact that some Catholics are unaware of this ensoulment ambiguity, but fully aware of the official teaching of life beginning at conception, does not bring you to declare any conclusion you make…nor to even offer us a glimpse into what your argument really is.
I may be off-base…I do enjoy dialogue with you, but clarity of your position…not just your “observations” is what I’m striving to bring out of you.
I agree you don’t know my position on many issues. I am content.Steve,
You are right on. I think it was Fulton J. Sheen who once said: ‘The questions we ask about the deity are never as important as why we ask them’ . I think the same is true here. From what I have gathered from Willie’s observations is some sort of ivory tower approach where he can comment on what he perceives to be ambiguity among Catholics, without ever entering his underlining premise or intentions. Are some Catholics ill informed on matters of ensoulment? Sure, i’m sure some may be, however many are ill informed on matters of artificial contraception as well (when they believe or are told this form of birth control does not contradict Church teaching). The fact that some Catholics are mis-informed on the mater of ensoulment proves absolutely nothing. It is merely a statement - an observation that has no impact on Church teaching nor does it or will it ever lead to some sort of concession from people who authentically love, respect, and defend the sacredness of all human life God has ordained. You can keep stating the same observation, but don’t expect and concessions, none will be forthcoming. If you don’t believe me, scroll back through all the threads and tell me where this observation broke the back of the pro-life rational and made it rationally acceptable to destroy life just because we are cannot know when ensoulment occurs?
The Sacred Congregation says it doesn’t know when ensoulment takes place. Many share your opinion, and that opinion is acceptable under Chrch teaching, but it is not what the Church teaches.That issue is not relevant to the abortion discussion, because by the time you even know it’s there, it’s been ensouled.
And? How does this pertain to the abortion debate?The Sacred Congregation says it doesn’t know when ensoulment takes place. Many share your opinion, and that opinion is acceptable under Chrch teaching, but it is not what the Church teaches.
I acknowledge your opinion on ensoulment. That’s not what the Church teaches.I’m not sure how early they can abort, but let’s say it’s one month. After one month, I’m pretty sure it’s been ensouled.
Now, I’m guessing you’re going to say we can’t stop anyone from killing it because we still don’t know it has a soul. By that same standard, why should we prevent murder of you or me? It’s obvious we both have souls, but how do I know you have a soul?
It doesn’t teach against it either. And while we’re on the topic of what the church teaches: Catechism of the catholic church 2258That’s not what the Church teaches
2270'Human life is sacred because from its beginning it involves the creative action of God and it remains for ever in a special relationship with the Creator, who is its sole end. God alone is the Lord of life from its beginning until its end: no one can under any circumstance claim for himself the right directly to destroy an innocent human being.
The church is clear, you still can’'t kill innocent human beings, even if you don’t believe they have a soul.Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person – among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life
I agree the Church doesn’t teach against the notion that ensoulment takes place at one month. Since they don’t know when it happens, they can hardly say when it doesn’t.As far as I know, the church hasn’t specifically said you get a soul before age 80. (Since people have died and gone to Heaven almost certainly before they were age 80, we know they do but bear wuth me) So how do I know you have a soul?
It doesn’t teach against it either. And while we’re on the topic of what the church teaches: Catechism of the catholic church 2258
2270
The church is clear, you still can’'t kill innocent human beings, even if you don’t believe they have a soul.
And this pertains to the abortion debate how? I think everyone here would love your answer to this question.I agree the Church doesn’t teach against the notion that ensoulment takes place at one month. Since they don’t know when it happens, they can hardly say when it doesn’t.
WW is pro-abortion. He has never denied it and never will.And this pertains to the abortion debate how? I think everyone here would love your answer to this question.
Nobody denies a fertilized egg is alive. But the Church does not teach ensoulment takes place at conception. It says it doesn’t know.WW is pro-abortion. He has never denied it and never will.
He does not care that his never ending assertion on ensoulment has absolutely nothing to do with abortion or the Church’s teaching that life begins at conception.
Eddie Mac
And again you avoid answering my question. What are you trying to say about abortion? That is the actual subject of this thread.Nobody denies a fertilized egg is alive. But the Church does not teach ensoulment takes place at conception. It says it doesn’t know.
Game, set, match.Nobody denies a fertilized egg is alive. But the Church does not teach ensoulment takes place at conception. It says it doesn’t know.
Sorry. I don’t understand. Can you elaborate?Game, set, match.
Eddie Mac
And Scientist can not calculate the exact moment at which the big bang occured Should we therefore throw out the entire theory of evolution?Nobody denies a fertilized egg is alive. But the Church does not teach ensoulment takes place at conception. It says it doesn’t know.
I am not aware the Sacred Congregation says the catechism is wrong.And Scientist can not calculate the exact moment at which the big bang occured Should we therefore throw out the entire theory of evolution?
The only vagueness or question with regards to ensoulment is with regard to twins and when does the soul of the second twin join with the body. This happens either at conception or at the time when the cells split to form two sepparate babies. There is no vagueness in the decisions or the teaching that a soul is present at conception or that a human being is formed at conception. The fact that the congregation did not take the several pages necesary to elaborate on this topic to your satisfaction does not say that they do not know when ensoulment takes place. May I suggest you find the word that was spelled with an alternate spelling in that document and explain to us how that proves the sacred congregation is saying the catchism is wrong?
No, no, no… youve been saying the Congregation says the church does not know when ensoulment takes place (obviously a misinterpretation) and the Chatechism says ensoulment takes place at conception. Therefore you are accusing the Congregation of saying the Chatechism is wrong.I am not aware the Sacred Congregation says the catechism is wrong.