Anyone called to be single?

[Mt_28_19_20]

Hi Michael…I think you have a point and a good point that Jesus, more or less following in the steps of His Cousin, John, who was beheaded, was also critical of the authority of His day. Jesus probably did realize that His chances of following in John’s footsteps and being executed were very very high, even likely.
Since the only form of contraception in His day was “the sin of Onan” and forbidden by the law, Jesus may well have chosen not to marry since that would mean in all likelihood he would have children and his wife and children would be left on their own after his death.
The above of course is pure speculation.
Another point of speculation to my mind is that perhaps Jesus chose celibacy as that would allow Him to concentrate fully and totally on His mission and brief from God. His vocation.

Other than that, the words of Jesus as I quoted:

…they speak for themselves and state quite clearly beyond any doubt to my mind as to meaning. That some will choose not to marry hence not to have children and for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven (meaning one is completely free in every way to invest totally in a radical following of The Gospel). This spells out “celibacy” to me and is not my point, but that of Jesus. In no way does this mean that Jesus in any way at all was against marriage. He is simply pointing out an alternative state of life and one dedicated totally to God’s Kingdom. Undoutedly Jesus remained celibate for the sake of The Kingdom. This does not mean that a married person cannot do the same - both states of life can dedicate themselves totally to God’s Kingdom, however in different ways.

Blessings - Barb
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_14_5.gif iHs

Hello Barb,

Concerning “Jesus probably did realize that His chances of following in John’s footsteps and being executed were very very high, even likely.”
Mt 16:21 “From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.”

Concering “The above of course is pure speculation.”
Is it speculation any more or less than the speculation that Jesus never married, or that Paul never married? Would either events change the gospel? Isn’t it merely speculation that Peter left his wife? Why would Peter do that given Mt 19:6? Or is Mt 19 not really about marriage, but about celibacy, and so Peter was being told to leave his wife?

Concering “Other than that, the words of Jesus as I quoted: …they speak for themselves and state quite clearly beyond any doubt to my mind as to meaning. That some will choose not to marry hence not to have children and for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven (meaning one is completely free in every way to invest totally in a radical following of The Gospel). This spells out “celibacy” to me and is not my point, but that of Jesus.”
I still think you quotes are taken out of context, and so it is clear to me that Jesus is not spelling out celibacy, and I do not think this is my point, I believe it is what Jesus taught. The disciples didn’t get it then, as we see they often didn’t understand through the gospels, as Jesus often pointed out their little faith and lack of understanding, correcting them again and again, and spelling it out for them again and again. So it looks like we disagree on interpretation. A thought that just came to mind again, is that regularly those celibates who are “completely free in every way to invest totally in a radical following of The Gospel” sometimes have “enough holiness” to renounce marriage, yet not enough holiness to renounce smoking, foul language, … I’ve been embarressed for example at a lunch meeting to help organize an event for Catholic and other Christian students, and the priest couldn’t refrain from foul language. Our parish priest while I was growing up… “always” smoking a smelly cigar, grossly overweight, and often unpleasant. Come on, that’s the fruit of our faith, our prayes, and our seminaries? I have had the pleasure of meeting and working with some incredible Christians. The ones whose faith and love for Christ and others you can “feel”, usually are not celibate, in my experience. I wish I could say that has not been my experience. I wish I could say it’s 1/2 and 1/2, or something like that.

Peace,

Michael

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Hi Michael…Just wanted to let you know that I have read your latest post - but I would like to give it more time than I am currently able. I am a student and at school today. Probably tonight (roughly 10hrs hence - I live in Australia) I will have that time and will respond. Thank you for the comments!

Blessings - Barb
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_12.gif iHs

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Hi Michael…Just wanted to let you know that I have read your latest post - but I would like to give it more time than I am currently able. I am a student and at school today. Probably tonight (roughly 10hrs hence - I live in Australia) I will have that time and will respond. Thank you for the comments!

Blessings - Barb
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_12.gif iHs

Hello Barb,

 Thank you for letting me know. No hurry, take your time, and don't take time away from your studies just to respond to my opinions. Besides, I'm hoping to be asleep in a few hours.

Michael

 

[strngrnrth]

1. Just because there are “many fish in the sea” does not mean that all the fish are “edible”; some will give you “mercury poisoning”.
2. The reason many men “rob the cradle” is that the women in their own age group are past child-bearing age (partially because those women wasted their lives following the feminazi career women idol or due to this “single vocation” push or because they don’t know what they want in life even in their thirties, which is the case with the last female I dated). The solution to this is for women in their own age group to make themselves available for marriage before it is too late.

Th-th-th-th-that’s all folks!

I can’t believe how much I’m learning. Post-menopausal women cause mercury poisoning in men, women don’t get past the age of childbearing unless they are career women, only something called “feminazis” must work for a living or may have any talents to offer, and it’s my responsibility to martyr myself to a man who waited until he was bald to decide he wants kids and then suddenly decided the kids must be from me. Wow. I have to take notes. There’s so much I didn’t know.

 

[lak611]

1. Just because there are “many fish in the sea” does not mean that all the fish are “edible”; some will give you “mercury poisoning”.
2. The reason many men “rob the cradle” is that the women in their own age group are past child-bearing age (partially because those women wasted their lives following the feminazi career women idol or due to this “single vocation” push or because they don’t know what they want in life even in their thirties, which is the case with the last female I dated). The solution to this is for women in their own age group to make themselves available for marriage before it is too late.

Th-th-th-th-that’s all folks!

Isn’t it also possible that some of the older men are just looking for a “trophy wife”?

 

[Norseman82]

I can’t believe how much I’m learning. Post-menopausal women cause mercury poisoning in men, women don’t get past the age of childbearing unless they are career women, only something called “feminazis” must work for a living or may have any talents to offer, and it’s my responsibility to martyr myself to a man who waited until he was bald to decide he wants kids and then suddenly decided the kids must be from me. Wow. I have to take notes. There’s so much I didn’t know.

That is NOT what I said. What a way to twist my words!

I never said that the “mercury poisoning” was due to a woman being post-menopausal; I was referring to someone of low morals who will lead a man away from the faith.

The “career woman”/“feminazi” remark refers not to those who work to survive, but rather those that place career above motherhood.

And as far as a man waiting until he is bald to have kids, I’ve got news for you. Many of those “bald guys” have been seeking marriage for a long time only to get a run-around from your half of humanity for twenty + years.

 

[Norseman82]

Isn’t it also possible that some of the older men are just looking for a “trophy wife”?

Maybe in some cases, but many simply want to start a family and they need the “store to be open”, so to speak.

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

That is NOT what I said. What a way to twist my words!

I never said that the “mercury poisoning” was due to a woman being post-menopausal; I was referring to someone of low morals who will lead a man away from the faith.

The “career woman”/“feminazi” remark refers not to those who work to survive, but rather those that place career above motherhood.

And as far as a man waiting until he is bald to have kids, I’ve got news for you. Many of those “bald guys” have been seeking marriage for a long time only to get a run-around from your half of humanity for twenty + years.

Seems to be a bit of truth in all four statements.

Michael

 

[strngrnrth]

That is NOT what I said. What a way to twist my words!

I never said that the “mercury poisoning” was due to a woman being post-menopausal; I was referring to someone of low morals who will lead a man away from the faith.

The “career woman”/“feminazi” remark refers not to those who work to survive, but rather those that place career above motherhood.

And as far as a man waiting until he is bald to have kids, I’ve got news for you. Many of those “bald guys” have been seeking marriage for a long time only to get a run-around from your half of humanity for twenty + years.

I like your signature but not so much your view of women.
I know younger men want to get married. I have been engaged thrice. The first one who proposed to me was around 10 or 12. The second was about 22. The last one thought we were still “Technically engaged” after I broke up with him. My attempt to escape these last two men (the first one and I just outgrew each other) wasn’t the runaround. It was self-preservation.

 

[Norseman82]

I like your signature but not so much your view of women.

I was only responding to your view of men to show you our side of the story!

The first one who proposed to me was around 10 or 12.

Wait a second…are you telling me that you were engaged to be married to a pre-teen? Isn’t that illegal in most states? And people complain about MEN “robbing the cradle”???

Please tell me this is an attempt at humor or this was in some foreign country where marriages are arranged when the bride and groom are still in grade school.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Quoting Mt 28 19_20 (Michael)

Later in the Gospels it is very evident that Jesus clearly knows He is headed for execution; however, I think He probably realized far earlier during the time of John The Baptist (His cousin) that He intended to follow in John’s footsteps by challenging authority and that if He did so, which He did, chances are He too would be executed. As an aside, but an important one I think, I also think Mary, His mother, also realized that if He did follow John, then Her son was probably headed for a cruel death like John. Again, speculation.

Concering “The above of course is pure speculation.”
Is it speculation any more or less than the speculation that Jesus never married, or that Paul never married? Would either events change the gospel? Isn’t it merely speculation that Peter left his wife? Why would Peter do that given Mt 19:6? Or is Mt 19 not really about marriage, but about celibacy, and so Peter was being told to leave his wife?

Actually when I think about it (unless someone can tell me of something I have missed - and no surprise!) it is speculation that Jesus never married since it was never mentioned that He was not married (or was married)and remained celibate. I do think however that if Jesus had been married it would have been mentioned somewhere in the Gospels, hence I think the speculation is based on very good circumstantial evidence. On the other hand, over and above that it is an Article of Faith that asks that we hold to the fact that Jesus was a virgin, celibate and unmarried and this is my belief in Faith.

Barb: Concering “Other than that, the words of Jesus as I quoted: …they speak for themselves and state quite clearly beyond any doubt to my mind as to meaning. That some will choose not to marry hence not to have children and for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven (meaning one is completely free in every way to invest totally in a radical following of The Gospel). This spells out “celibacy” to me and is not my point, but that of Jesus.”

Michael replies: I still think you quotes are taken out of context, and so it is clear to me that Jesus is not spelling out celibacy, and I do not think this is my point, I believe it is what Jesus taught. The disciples didn’t get it then, as we see they often didn’t understand through the gospels, as Jesus often pointed out their little faith and lack of understanding, correcting them again and again, and spelling it out for them again and again. So it looks like we disagree on interpretation.

I would agree, Michael, that our arrival point and meeting point is to agree to differ:thumbsup: I can’t see how a context dealing with marriage can be stated as taken out of context and is not dealing with marriage.

A thought that just came to mind again, is that regularly those celibates who are “completely free in every way to invest totally in a radical following of The Gospel” sometimes have “enough holiness” to renounce marriage, yet not enough holiness to renounce smoking, foul language, … I’ve been embarressed for example at a lunch meeting to help organize an event for Catholic and other Christian students, and the priest couldn’t refrain from foul language. Our parish priest while I was growing up… “always” smoking a smelly cigar, grossly overweight, and often unpleasant. Come on, that’s the fruit of our faith, our prayes, and our seminaries? I have had the pleasure of meeting and working with some incredible Christians. The ones whose faith and love for Christ and others you can “feel”, usually are not celibate, in my experience. I wish I could say that has not been my experience. I wish I could say it’s 1/2 and 1/2, or something like that.

Where assessments of anything are made by me on the basis of my personal experience, I realize and assent to the fact that my personal experience in the big picture is very small indeed and that I cannot make sweeping generalizations based only on my very limited experience? What you quote above is simply your experience…and my own personal experience would be in contradiction of yours

Peace, Michael…and God’s Rich Blessings to you and yours…Barb
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_14_3.gif iHs

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Actually when I think about it (unless someone can tell me of something I have missed - and no surprise!) it is speculation that Jesus never married since it was never mentioned that He was not married (or was married)and remained celibate. I do think however that if Jesus had been married it would have been mentioned somewhere in the Gospels, hence I think the speculation is based on very good circumstantial evidence. On the other hand, over and above that it is an Article of Faith that asks that we hold to the fact that Jesus was a virgin, celibate and unmarried and this is my belief in Faith.

Hello Barb,

 Yes, it seems to be speculation whether Jesus was or was not married. (Either way, would that change the Gospel message and it's effect?) Silence is not a proof either way. We do know that it was usual for Jewish teachers to be married it that time, atleast that is my understanding (someone correct me if that is not generally true).

 As far as thinking it would have been mentioned in the Gospels if Jesus was married: If it was usual to be married in that day, then what was assumed or expected wouldn't necessarily be mentioned. Think of the many famous people who are known for what they wrote or accomplished or taught. Was whether they were married or not a major or minor focus of their popularity? There are many well known lecturers in my field of study, and whether they are married or not is usually not part of the conversation or discussion about what they teach, since their married state is peripheral to their teaching.
  RJJ Tolkien is well known, yet I had to "google" to find out whether he had been married. Similarly, I had to "google" to find out if Harry Potter's author is married.

I just “googled” Jesus, celibacy, article, and don’t seem to find a Church reference. Would you or someone else mind giving me a reference that says it is an article or dogma of Catholic faith that Jesus was celibate (renounced marriage).
That said, given previous points, if Jesus remained unmarried because of His unique role as true God and true man, and submitting to His passion and crucifixion for our salvation, I do not see how one can assume what was asked of Jesus as God and man, is asked of those who are mere sinners: man. God could have protected Mary if she had not married, yet God chose for Mary to not remain single, He chose for her to give birth as a married virgin. And He made this known to her by the message of an angel after she had been betrothed. Mary is our supreme model of faith, and she did not have a single vocation, though she was of course single before she was betrothed and married.

Hope your studies are going well,

Michael

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Where assessments of anything are made by me on the basis of my personal experience, I realize and assent to the fact that my personal experience in the big picture is very small indeed and that I cannot make sweeping generalizations based only on my very limited experience? What you quote above is simply your experience…and my own personal experience would be in contradiction of yours

Very true, my personal experience in the big picture is indeed very small, and I cannot make sweeping generalizations based on limited experience. And the depth of ones faith cannot and should not be judged by others. I have found that those whose faith might not appear too important on first impressions, often show signs of remarkable depth and strenght of faith over time if one is a bit attentive.
That said, and ackowledging my view may be biased due to my own weaknesses and imperfections, my experience is still my experience, and I do try to be attentive and discerning.
Thus, I can sincerely say, if Scott Hahn, Mike Aquilina, and two of my married Protestant friends were in the same room with Cardinal Rigali, the priest of the parish I grew-up in, my spiritual director (whom I have very high respect for as a Christian), and a friend who became a priest about five years ago, and they were all dressed in casual cloths so one did not know who were priests/Cardinal and who were married Christian men, I would dare to say the witness of the married men would, on the whole, be more Christ-like than the witness of the priests/Cardinal to someone meeting them for the first time and not knowing who they are. I in good conscience believe that, from my experience growing up in the Catholic faith for over thirty years, and co-laboring with Protestant and Catholic Christians on mission projects for the last six years. Just a very small part of the big picture, yet not a secluded personal experience.

Peace,

Michael
1 Tim 3 and 4

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

And as far as a man waiting until he is bald to have kids, I’ve got news for you. Many of those “bald guys” have been seeking marriage for a long time only to get a run-around from your half of humanity for twenty + years.

Interesting; you could just as easily substitute “less than physically perfect women” for “bald men” in that statement:

Many of those “less than physically perfect women” have been seeking marriage for a long time only to get a run-around from your half of humanity for twenty + years.

And they’re not just the ones with loose morals, or so-called “feminazis.”

(What is a “feminazi” anyway – a woman who has no choice but to support herself in the career world because men have given her the run-around for 20+ years? )

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Interesting; you could just as easily substitute “less than physically perfect women” for “bald men” in that statement:

Many of those “less than physically perfect women” have been seeking marriage for a long time only to get a run-around from your half of humanity for twenty + years.

And they’re not just the ones with loose morals, or so-called “feminazis.”

(What is a “feminazi” anyway – a woman who has no choice but to support herself in the career world because men have given her the run-around for 20+ years? )

In regards to the four comments, respectively:

True, There is truth to this for both sides. But for human imperfections, pride, etc…

True, there are men and women who give the other gender the “run-around”. For various “reasons/excuses”. Then there are those that do get married, only to give their spouse the “run-around”, often resulting in divorce. Not to promote relativism, however perhaps the “run-around” sooner would have been the lessor of evils.

Are terms being lumped together here? Seemed like the NM described two “types” (for lack of a better word), not necessarily exclusive of each other). He seemed to refer to those with low moral values (this applies to either gender, of course) that would be detrimental to one’s faith if one were to pursue and marry. And he seemed to refer to those (again, true for both genders) who put work above family/marriage/relationships. Biologically, this seems particularly important for woman if they spend the majority of their childbearing years putting off marriage to establish/promote their careers. For example, there is this story of a 79 year old man fathering a child with a 31 year old woman. Anyone hear of the opposite occuring? Was Elizabeth 79 when she gave birth to John the Baptist?
cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=41985

On the last comment/question. Just because someone is getting the “run-around” for many years does not mean they have to put work above it’s proper place. They do not have to make work/career over prioritized just to make a living. Some may rationalize over prioritzing work/career with thinking they cann’t make a decent living without being a “workaholic”, yet it might just contribute to what they perceive as a “run-around”. Of some of my guy friends, one married a teacher and the other married lawyer. Both wives stopped working completely when they had their first children, to dedicate themselves to their family/children. Some would say they gave up alot, they would say what they gave up paled in comparison to what they gave themselves to. Neither husband was making a salary that made it easy for them to do so, however they worked with what was important to them, and accepted their limitations based on their priorities. Whatever the appropriate term would be, “femi…” or something else, there are those, in both genders, both single and married, who put work and financial independence above it’s proper place to the extent of compromising the proper priority for family and relationships. Call it what you will, it is there. And the result can be that child-bearing age has passed before the person realizes their misplaced priorites. That is truely sad, and they cannot go back in time. How painful it must be to face that.

Micheal

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

And the result can be that child-bearing age has passed before the person realizes their misplaced priorites. That is truely sad, and they cannot go back in time. How painful it must be to face that.

Micheal

There may not be any misplaced priorities. For those of us (women) who are completely ignored by men because we are 1) not pretty, 2) not thin, and/or 3) “too old”, we really have no choice but to work full-time – not necessarily to be workaholics, but we have to come up with 100% of our living expenses, not just 50%. We don’t all have the option of living with Mom and Dad, or with other family members. Unfortunately, our odds don’t get any better with age, especially once the child-bearing years have passed. Some of us have never had the opportunity to have children, short of sinful ways (like using a sperm bank), and I think we can be excused for not availing ourselves of those methods.

 

[agapewolf]

hmmm…stolen rutter

HI!

(32/female/single…wants kids)

Carrie

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

There may not be any misplaced priorities. For those of us (women) who are completely ignored by men because we are 1) not pretty, 2) not thin, and/or 3) “too old”, we really have no choice but to work full-time – not necessarily to be workaholics, but we have to come up with 100% of our living expenses, not just 50%. We don’t all have the option of living with Mom and Dad, or with other family members. Unfortunately, our odds don’t get any better with age, especially once the child-bearing years have passed. Some of us have never had the opportunity to have children, short of sinful ways (like using a sperm bank), and I think we can be excused for not availing ourselves of those methods.

“There may not be any misplaced priorities.”

Maybe, maybe not. Too often it seems like convenient excuses to keep our priorities the way they are. Whether male or female, we all see plenty of couples get married who are:

BOTH good looking, and at the risk of sounding uncharitable, ugly
BOTH thin, average, and much above average
BOTH young and old. Think about it, how many widows and widowers remarry at an old age? So someone who was never married and is in their 30’s or 40’s is going to use “old-age” as their excuse?

Most single people have to come up with 100% of their living expenses, and most don’t live with their parents. I would be cautious of being interested in someone who still lives with their parents if they are a mature adult, especially after “traditional” college age. Working full-time is great, nothing wrong with that. Working full-time with proper priorities is not the same as being a workaholic and having disordered priorities.
Jesus taught that those with the most will find it hardest to give up, and that seems to be true with careers. Those with the highest “success” in careers often have the hardest time lowering that in priority for their family and children.

Michael

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

Think about it, how many widows and widowers remarry at an old age? So someone who was never married and is in their 30’s or 40’s is going to use “old-age” as their excuse?

40s? Maybe not, but I am way past my 40s. And there are ten worlds of difference between being a widow/widower and being my age and never-married. Only people my age and up who have never been married will be able to understand that, by the way.

Working full-time with proper priorities is not the same as being a workaholic and having disordered priorities.

Where is the logic in assuming that just because someone has not had the fortune to be married, that that person is a workaholic with disordered priorities? I’ll answer that; there is no logic to it at all.

Jesus taught that those with the most will find it hardest to give up, and that seems to be true with careers. Those with the highest “success” in careers often have the hardest time lowering that in priority for their family and children.

Doesn’t apply to me, then; I’m fairly low on the ladder.

 

[Contarini]

A holy priest I know said that he did not think there was a call to the single life. I don’t mean to be depressing but I do trust him, he is a very wise man.

What did he mean by that? Did he mean that all those who are called to celibacy are called to some kind of organized religious life? What about the many hermits and consecrated virgins of the early Church? Isn’t there a liturgy in the modern Catholic Church for the consecration of a virgin (distinct from joining some particular religious order)?

I don’t think anyone is called to what our culture generally calls “the single life”–a life of continually cycling through one romantic relationship after another (even if fornication is not involved, as it usually is).

To the OP’s question–I don’t think there’s any certain way of knowing if you are called to be celibate or if you are just afraid of some aspect of marriage. You would need to discern this over time, hopefully with a trusted spiritual advisor. But surely there is a place for chaste singleness apart from religious orders.

Edwin