Anyone else believe in universal coverage for kids?

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thomfra said:
Socialised health care seems to work OK in most other countries.
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undoubtedly the reason my canadian neighbors get so many of their services here, because it is so hard to schedule at home
 
Fitswimmer said:
Have you even read any of the ACTUAL proposals for health care reform??? NONE of them would involve anything in the same zipcode of what you’re talking about.

Leaping to extremes really doesn’t strengthen your argument.
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Well, considering that there are too many in power willing to dismiss life easily and too many “believers” not willing to stand up and fight the current trends (kind of what happend in the early times of Nazi Germany) and to vote for candidates who put their money where there mouths are and actually work to change the laws in favor of supporting life, your assumption about leaping conclusions is silly.
 
Fitswimmer said:
Have you even read any of the ACTUAL proposals for health care reform??? NONE of them would involve anything in the same zipcode of what you’re talking about.

Leaping to extremes really doesn’t strengthen your argument.
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I’ve read enough to know that Utilitarian Bioethics is on the table. That’s enough for me.
 
gmarie21 said:
Well, considering that there are too many in power willing to dismiss life easily and too many “believers” not willing to stand up and fight the current trends (kind of what happend in the early times of Nazi Germany) and to vote for candidates who put their money where there mouths are and actually work to change the laws in favor of supporting life, your assumption about leaping conclusions is silly.
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Ah, the Nazi argument has arrived…it was only a matter of time.

You do realize that means that you have no facts to argue with, right?

The USA is the ONLY industrialized nation that does not consider basic health care for it’s citizens important enough to provide it. The ONLY one. I was going to list all the nations that do provide it and have somehow managed not to euthanize their populations, but the list was too long.
 
Fitswimmer said:
here’s the website: opm.gov/insure/health/

It has links to the current premiums. It’s been 10 years since I was in it, so things may have changed. I know I’m paying about the same at my current job as I was there, but my company has above average bennies.
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Thanks. I have what I think is good coverage with low copays and a broad PPO list. It appears that the equivalent coverage to mine costs (total premium, not just employee) $10,000 per year in the fed plan (Illinois Aetna Open Access).

Now for a little fun math. If we assume there are 300 million people in America with an average of 4 persons per family, then we have 75 million families to cover.

I know it is considered callous and inhuman to discuss costs here, but do you guys realize that you are proposing to add in the ballpark of $750,000,000,000 to the federal budget every year? And that is IF it is done efficiently. Care to guess how much pork, nepotism and waste will get hidden in that pie? Based on every government contract I’ve ever worked on (lots), I’d say expect this to cost a TRILLION dollars a year. Good luck with that.

Government ALWAYS makes the same dumb mistake. Wait until a problem is too big to ignore, propose a massive sweeping solution to fix it, watch and wonder what happens when said massive program creates worse problems along the way.

Instead, we should find ways to make incremental changes that allow those who are able to pay their own way to do so and to provide a more limited safety net for those who for whatever reason can’t. Catholics have historically called this “subsidiarity.”
 
surf(name removed by moderator)ure said:
Did you even visit the links Julia1234 posted? Is no one interested to know why some of us think universal health care (even for children) would be a colossal mistake?

Anyone who’d like the government to define “quality of life” for your sick, injured, or disabled child, please raise your hand. Anyone who has been through the painful hoops with an oppressive, restrictive, uncaring HMO, please raise your hand.

In truth, through such a system, we could end up actually killing children in the name of the “greater good.” I’m horrified that pro-life Catholics are not aware of these dangers.
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As opposed to what we have now? Where I can’t get care? Where I’ve been denied private insurance for over a decade. Where I’ve been denied care in the ER after an assault, because the doctors were disgusted over my ‘lifestyle’? The system where I’ve had to file TWO bankruptcies over medical bills and I’m only TWENTY EIGHT.

Sure, sure, it works FINE, just FINE. Sometimes it’s a blessing I’m sterile, I have no idea how I would be able to afford health care for any children I might have.
 
pathia said:
As opposed to what we have now? Where I can’t get care? Where I’ve been denied private insurance for over a decade. Where I’ve been denied care in the ER after an assault, because the doctors were disgusted over my ‘lifestyle’? The system where I’ve had to file TWO bankruptcies over medical bills and I’m only TWENTY EIGHT.

Sure, sure, it works FINE, just FINE. Sometimes it’s a blessing I’m sterile, I have no idea how I would be able to afford health care for any children I might have.
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I have no idea what your conditions or your lifestyle are, but I’m very sorry you were refused emergency treatment. That is illegal in America, you know, and you have recourse.

But we are really discussing universal health care for children, and why or why not that would work.
 
gmarie21 said:
realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/09/socialized_medicine_is_broken.html (someone who works for ABC - which is known to be a biased media source in support of the liberal agenda).

balancedpolitics.org/universal_health_care.htm

prweb.com/releases/2008/04/prweb830964.htm
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site # 1-I was unable to find a mission statement here and the article iitself is an opinion piece. I do agree with John Stossel on many things, but my opinion is no more factually valid than his.

Site #2-no citations, no references to back up the statements on either side of the issue. Again, opinions.

Site # 3 refers to an survey of healthcare professionals where they were asked about their opinions.
Jackson & Coker commissioned a survey to determine the opinions of health professionals, especially practicing physicians, on the topic of healthcare reform.
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I was hoping for actual facts showing problems with universal healthcare in places where it has actually been used, instead of “well, we think this will happen if we try it in the US”.
 
manualman said:
Thanks. I have what I think is good coverage with low copays and a broad PPO list. It appears that the equivalent coverage to mine costs (total premium, not just employee) $10,000 per year in the fed plan (Illinois Aetna Open Access).

Now for a little fun math. If we assume there are 300 million people in America with an average of 4 persons per family, then we have 75 million families to cover.

I know it is considered callous and inhuman to discuss costs here, but do you guys realize that you are proposing to add in the ballpark of $750,000,000,000 to the federal budget every year? And that is IF it is done efficiently. Care to guess how much pork, nepotism and waste will get hidden in that pie? Based on every government contract I’ve ever worked on (lots), I’d say expect this to cost a TRILLION dollars a year. Good luck with that.

Government ALWAYS makes the same dumb mistake. Wait until a problem is too big to ignore, propose a massive sweeping solution to fix it, watch and wonder what happens when said massive program creates worse problems along the way.

Instead, we should find ways to make incremental changes that allow those who are able to pay their own way to do so and to provide a more limited safety net for those who for whatever reason can’t. Catholics have historically called this “subsidiarity.”
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Well, we could always get China to pay for it-they’re paying for the Iraq war. 😉

I agree that we wait too long in the US to deal with problems. We act reactively where we should act proactively and it causes us no end of expense and problems. However, the fact that we should have done this two generations ago doesn’t change the reality that we have a huge problem with healthcare in America and we need to solve it.
 
surf(name removed by moderator)ure said:
Take a look at what’s going on in Oregon…

findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m6875/is_n4_7/ai_n25021383/pg_4

The concept of “Quality Adjusted Life Years” (or QALYs) is already alive and well in the US. And it operates best under an HMO-structured system, which is driven by the bottom line.
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All the more reason to get health care decisions away from people who are more interested in making money than saving lives. Right now, corporations who must make profits for their shareholders are making our healthcare decisions. He who can afford better, gets better. Why should good healthcare be dependant on income???
 
Fitswimmer said:
I was hoping for actual facts showing problems with universal healthcare in places where it has actually been used, instead of “well, we think this will happen if we try it in the US”.
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Refer to Julia’s YouTube link of the man who was made to wait 8 months in Canada to remove a cancerous brain tumor, and finally came to the US for surgery.
 
surf(name removed by moderator)ure said:
Refer to Julia’s YouTube link of the man who was made to wait 8 months in Canada to remove a cancerous brain tumor, and finally came to the US for surgery.
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here we go again…can you tell me what the MD’s in Canada are doing since it seems everyone knows a Canadian who had to come to the US for treatment? How can they be so busy if all the Canadians are here?

Also, who says we have to copy their system? This is America, can’t we come up with a better one?
 
Fitswimmer said:
All the more reason to get health care decisions away from people who are more interested in making money than saving lives. Right now, corporations who must make profits for their shareholders are making our healthcare decisions. He who can afford better, gets better. Why should good healthcare be dependant on income???
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I don’t suppose you can provide us with the portion of the proposed legislation that protects patients from eugenics and utilitarianism? The right to timely procedures? The right to make our own healthcare decisions? The right to choose our own providers, and demand necessary testing for life-threatening conditions, regardless of our “quality of life”?

Please cite a credible source that guarantees us the right to manage our own healthcare, including the right to seek second opinions and alternative care when we deem it necessary. Please demonstrate that physicians and their overseeing government administrators will not calculate our “quality adjusted life years” and determine when our lives are no longer “worth living” or “worth saving.”
 
surf(name removed by moderator)ure said:
I don’t suppose you can provide us with the portion of the proposed legislation that protects patients from eugenics and utilitarianism? The right to timely procedures? The right to make our own healthcare decisions? The right to choose our own providers, and demand necessary testing for life-threatening conditions, regardless of our “quality of life”?

Please cite a credible source that guarantees us the right to manage our own healthcare, including the right to seek second opinions and alternative care when we deem it necessary. Please demonstrate that physicians and their overseeing government administrators will not calculate our “quality adjusted life years” and determine when our lives are no longer “worth living” or “worth saving.”
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Please show me where we have the rights and protections you’ve outlined above NOW.
 
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