Anyone Else Find Vatican II's Efforts for Ecumenism Ironic?

[I_Believe]

(See bolded part).

This is NOT true. I was evangelical Protestant for over 40 years…

…If an “interfaith service” exposes ignorant Protestants to Catholicism and gets them started on the Road to Rome, then it is a good thing, not a bad thing.

Wonderful theory, but a failure in practice. See posts 17 and 18 in this thread for the truth of the matter.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Ecumenism - one of the best things to come from V II. I don’t think y’all realize just what agony some of us went through as kids. My father was Protestant. My mother and father had to get permission to marry and my father had to agree that he would raise his children Catholic. He did. Who do you think drove me to serve 6am Mass?

My mother, brother, sister and I agonized about what might happen to my father. In 1967 when my grandmother died we had to get permission from our pastor to attend her funeral services - because she was a Protestant. And many of you will have no idea of just how uncomfortable I was attending those services. Catholics simply did not attend Protestant services.

I am so happy to be able to attend the funeral services of friends, attend weddings, shoot even sing for a fellow cathedral chorister who was marrying an Episcopalian. You need to look at Ecumenism through those eyes.

 

[sphilomena]

What Vatican II called for and what is actually happenning are two different things.

THAT is the key! So much has been written in 40+ years about all of this. One of those whom I respect greatly is the late Dietrich von Hildebrand. Trojan Horse in the City of God
is a real eye-opener. (He minces no words about ecumenism.) The Pope (Pius XII, as I recall) wouldn’t have called him a 20th century doctor of the Church, if he hadn’t respected him and his opinion. Anne Roche Muggeridge wrote The Desolate City, another revealing perspective.

I’ll never forget my friend telling me about going to her parents’ anniversary celebration a few years ago. It was Lutheran and she was astounded that it was just like a NO Mass. (She’s a convert and hadn’t been to a Lutheran service in years.) That tells me a lot about the changes that were made to the Mass, many never intended.

 

[bear06]

Divisions in our Church have always been and will probably continue until the Second Coming. Take a darn good look at the aftermath of the Council of Trent. I think we’d all agree that it was very clear and yet more division happened after it. As Genensis pointed out, the teaching of the Church is very clear. People will still trod all over it if they want to. Our human nature constantly fouls things up!

 

[brotherhrolf]

I think that what V II actually called for and what has happened since are indeed two different things on more than one score. Sphilomena, I served my maternal grandmother’s funeral at St. Alphonsus in 65 along with my brother. My paternal grand mother died in 67. We went to the wake but not to the burial. Had to get permission to go to the “memorial service”. You and I both know about that “barrier”. We loved our grandmother.

 

[I_Believe]

Ecumenism - one of the best things to come from V II. I don’t think y’all realize just what agony some of us went through as kids. My father was Protestant. My mother and father had to get permission to marry and my father had to agree that he would raise his children Catholic. He did. Who do you think drove me to serve 6am Mass?

My mother, brother, sister and I agonized about what might happen to my father. In 1967 when my grandmother died we had to get permission from our pastor to attend her funeral services - because she was a Protestant. And many of you will have no idea of just how uncomfortable I was attending those services. Catholics simply did not attend Protestant services.

I am so happy to be able to attend the funeral services of friends, attend weddings, shoot even sing for a fellow cathedral chorister who was marrying an Episcopalian. You need to look at Ecumenism through those eyes.

Hi brotherolf, I always enjoy hearing your perspective. I’ve never heard you say much to disagree with friend.

I’m just not convinced this new brand of ecumenism is working. My job requires me to be on the campus of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary at times. Many times, I see anti catholic propoganda on the fliers students tape to their dorm room doors.
These are not isolated incidents. I’ve encountered them for three years. If the administration of that seminary has no problem with this, and allows it, then that sends a loud and clear message to me.

A co-worker of mine is a Baptist. I asked him what his view of Apostolic Succession was. His answer ? "It’s a phrase used do describe the ordained ministers of various faiths "

it’s just not working.

 

[Like]

I think there is more truth to that than we realize. Have you ever read the book “Desire to Destroy”? When I first bought the book, about 8 years ago, and began to read it, I couldn’t finish it. That’s how hard hitting it was.

About 3/4 of the book consist of quotes from leading post Vatican II theologians. Their stated goal was to destroy the Church. They believed that in destroying the Church from within would result in a glorious resurrection. Therefore, they took concrete measures to destroy the Church from within.

Their “logic” for doing so was this: Just as Christ “emptied Himself” (Kenosis) so too the Church must “empty itself” (Kenosis), to be more like Christ. How does the Church practice this kenosis? By “raising the bastions” and destroying itself from within. You would probably be surprised to find out which of the post Vatican II theoogians subscribed to that theory, which no doubt originated in the mind of the devil himself.

If you want to understand what is taking place in the Church, and why it is in the condition it is, all you need to do is read Animus Delendi “Desire to Destroy”. Here’s a review: traditioninaction.org/bkreviews/G_011br_AD1_Vennari.htm
Why do the RADICAL Traditionalist almost always use links to those who are not in communion with the Roman Church?!?
So, when you said that the devil somehow worked his way into the Church (which he did this by deceiving leading theologians who willingly obeyed him), and got the Church to attempt suicide, you were exactly right.

This is ONLY your opinion & those who are not in communion with Rome! Do you believe Benedict XVI is one of those “leading theologians” who obeyed the devil?!?!
After all, the link you post-ed did list him as one of the “leading theologians”.
As for me, I’ll stick to more trust worthy sites, such as
catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?id=6848&repos=1&subrepos=&searchid=217139
which are, along with Catholic World News,cwnews.com/
a Trinity Communications project at
trincomm.org/projects/internal.cfm

 

[brotherhrolf]

Hi brotherolf, I always enjoy hearing your perspective. I’ve never heard you say much to disagree with friend.

I’m just not convinced this new brand of ecumenism is working. My job requires me to be on the campus of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary at times. Many times, I see anti catholic propoganda on the fliers students tape to their dorm room doors.
These are not isolated incidents. I’ve encountered them for three years. If the administration of that seminary has no problem with this, and allows it, then that sends a loud and clear message to me.

A co-worker of mine is a Baptist. I asked him what his view of Apostolic Succession was. His answer ? "It’s a phrase used do describe the ordained ministers of various faiths "

it’s just not working.

Well, yes and no. I’ve kind of danced around the issue of “outside of the Church there is no salvation”. I ask y’all to remember that my father and grandmother were not Catholic. Could one condemn one’s father and grandmother to eternal perdition? Vatican II resolved that for which I am eternally grateful.

My boss is an ex-Catholic and is now a Baptist minister with his own church. He does not want me to speak to him about the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ. For me, that is the gulf that separates us. But I pray for the souls of my protestant co-workers with the same fervor I pray for my Catholic ones. The cow left the barn an awful long time ago. With 32,000 + protestant denominations - surely Our Lord is a Lord of mercy.

 

[Cathryn]

I believe the intention of ecumenism is good. The people implementing it need to know their faith and uphold it, at the same time talk to Protestants, and non-believers about what we believe and listen to them about what their concerns are. Catholics shouldn’t fear other faiths. We need to know our own and defend it in a charitable manner. Cardinals, Bishops and priests who undermine the Catholic faith by pushing a modernist agenda are not working for true ecumenism. They are attempting to level the Catholic Church and destroy it. Of course this won’t happen, but they are putting up a good battle.

 

[Genesis315]

As for inter-faith prayer meetings, as the Second Vatican Council’s declaration one ecumenism states:

I just wanted to add another passage from the Second Vatican Council on this issue:

1. Common participation in worship (communicatio in sacris) which harms the unity of the Church or involves formal acceptance of error or the danger of aberration in the faith, of scandal and indifferentism, is forbidden by divine law.(32)

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_orientalium-ecclesiarum_en.html

 

[jeanannemarie]

I just skimmed thru the link posted by Pax et Cartas. I am so confused about what is going on in the Church at this point. I attend an NO mass in a small parish and my son is 5 years into becoming a priest for the TLM, which I have had no opportunity to join in because it doesn’t exist where I live. I love the Church and all this stuff scares me. I know that God said his Church will prevail against Hell, so I need not fear, but this is serious stuff. There can only be one Truth. It really makes my head spin to hear all the debate.

 

[HashemEchad]

I’ve always looked at it like this:

They opened the doors hoping that there’d be this great surge of people coming in. But in opening the doors, they didn’t consider that it also leaves an exit point.

Agreed. And then there are non-Catholics like me (Jewish) who are old enough to remember at least the “tail end” of “the good old days”, and mourn along with Traditional Catholics, the loss of the beauty that was Catholic liturgy before Vatican 2.

Truthfully, I lost practically all my respect for the Roman Catholic church when I saw how they threw the Tridentine Latin Mass away as if it was so much garbage.

Just because we don’t want to join your church (especially now), does not mean we did not appreciate the beauty and grandeur that is the Tridentine Mass.

Some of the greatest classical composers wrote music for that very Mass. Some of the most famous saints of your church knew only that Mass.

The fact that the Catholic church could so easily throw such a thing of beauty away and replace it with ridiculousness (clown masses?! WT…?) frankly proves to me that it is not the true religion. Sorry if that offends anyone, I have to say what I truly feel.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

This is ONLY your opinion & those who are not in communion with Rome! Do you believe Benedict XVI is one of those “leading theologians” who obeyed the devil?!?!
After all, the link you post-ed did list him as one of the “leading theologians”.
As for me, I’ll stick to more trust worthy sites, such as
catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?id=6848&repos=1&subrepos=&searchid=217139
which are, along with Catholic World News,cwnews.com/
a Trinity Communications project at
trincomm.org/projects/internal.cfm

This is not my opinion. This is what they actually teach. Like I mentioned above, it made me so sick to my stomach to read the quotes in the book that I couldn’t even finish the book. I only got to about page 150 out of over 500 pages. I did not enjoy reading it.

The book is basically just a bunch of quotes with a little commentary. Anyone who reads that book will understand what is happening to the Church.

jeanannemarie:

I just skimmed thru the link posted by Pax et Cartas. I am so confused about what is going on in the Church at this point.

The Church is going through a serious crisis. It has been predicted many times by saints. In fact, Our Lady of Good success, from the 16th century, actually specified the date. She said the crisis that she was describing would take place “in the second half of the 20th century”. There have been many other saints who predicted it.

But, and keep this in mind: These same saints who predicted the crisis we are in now, also predicted a glorious restoration of the Church, which is probably right around the corner. They described the restoration as miraculous and almost unimaginable. Just as the crisis we are now in is almost unimaginable, so too will be the restoration.

We should not be discouraged. Instead, let us strive all the more to live as God would have us to live and to remain firm in the faith during this time of apostasy.

 

[elt1956]

But we are not brow beating today. We have all these interfaith services and such, and it’s not encouraging conversion, it’s sending the message that it’s ok to remain protestant. If the goal of todays version of ecumenism is having everyone get along, versus ecumenism of return, that is a rejection of Tradition. It’s had 45 years to work and it’s not working.

My job sometimes requires me to be in dorms of the Southern Baptist Theological Semenary here in Louisville. It is not uncommon to see Anti-Catholic flyers taped to the doors of dorm rooms. Quotes from Luther attacking the Church and so forth.

The post VII Church has come very close to becoming a Church of appeasement. Why on earth would Bugnini consult protestants while contriving a new liturgy ? HMC needs advice from those who reject Her ? It’s absurd.

Those ministers should have been given a grand tour of the Vatican and a crash course in catholicism. They should have been instructed in the Truth. Apostolic Succession should have been explained in no uncertain terms. And before they left, they should have been advised, as to leave no doubt, the Churches teaching on the way to Salvation, and been encouraged to discern a vocation in service of HMC. They should have walked out of the Vatican with an understanding of catholicism that they had no inkling of before they came. They would leave the Vatican knowing that their ignorance no longer relieved them from submitting to HMC now that they know Her Truth. They would know if they choose to walk away from Her, they would be walking away from the Church Christ willed his Apostles to establish in His name.

That’s not brow beating, that is ecumenism of return.

But instead, history has given us our current topic to sink our teeth into.

Boy, don’t you wish it could be so?? But I really, really, really believe a door has to remain open to draw a soul through. Peace.

 

[Duke_of_Mantua]

The fact that the Catholic church could so easily throw such a thing of beauty away and replace it with ridiculousness (clown masses?! WT…?) frankly proves to me that it is not the true religion. Sorry if that offends anyone, I have to say what I truly feel.

Don’t be sorry. I personally appreciate an outsider’s view of Catholicism and I would rather hear your opinion than one of Rome’s cheerleaders.

As for it being the true religion, you don’t have to look very far for you to find people mucking up judaism. We both have our enemies, inside and out.

 

[holdencaulfield]

Don’t be sorry. I personally appreciate an outsider’s view of Catholicism and I would rather hear your opinion than one of Rome’s cheerleaders.

As for it being the true religion, you don’t have to look very far for you to find people mucking up judaism. We both have our enemies, inside and out.

It’s true have you ever seen these weird pseudo Jewish congregations? However this is besides the point. Anyone could go and try to mess up Eastern Orthodoxy. The fact that the Roman Church has survived past Vatican II is a sign that it is the Church.

 

[I_Believe]

Boy, don’t you wish it could be so?? But I really, really, really believe a door has to remain open to draw a soul through. Peace.

But the door has been open since 33 A.D. elt.

If traditionalists have it all wrong, then there are members of the Curia that have it all wrong. And from 33 A.D. till 1962 the Church had it all wrong.

Do you honestly believe a Church document can excuse heresy ?
Error never trumps Tradition.

We’ll just have to agree we disagree.

 

[elt1956]

But the door has been open since 33 A.D. elt.

If traditionalists have it all wrong, then there are members of the Curia that have it all wrong. And from 33 A.D. till 1962 the Church had it all wrong.

Do you honestly believe a Church document can excuse heresy ?
Error never trumps Tradition.

We’ll just have to agree we disagree.

No, I don’t believe a CHURCH document can excuse heresy. But it does seem we have problems of personal interpretation in reading some documents.

 

[Like]

I just skimmed thru the link posted by Pax et Cartas. I am so confused about what is going on in the Church at this point. I attend an NO mass in a small parish and my son is 5 years into becoming a priest for the TLM, which I have had no opportunity to join in because it doesn’t exist where I live. I love the Church and all this stuff scares me. I know that God said his Church will prevail against Hell, so I need not fear, but this is serious stuff. There can only be one Truth. It really makes my head spin to hear all the debate.

Hi jeanannemarie, I pray you’ll be on guard for a lot of the anti-Rome, anti-Pope links that you will find post-ed in these forums and especially in this sub forum. The link you said you read, post-ed by Pax and is post-ed quit often by many so called Traditionalist, is VERY much anti-popes Paul VI, JPII and B16 & anything Vatican II. That said link is “Tradition in Action” and would led you to believe they are the great defender of Holy Mother Church, when in reality they are hoping to turn you against the above popes and Vatican Council II. Granted, I do believe V II did create a lot of confusion & some problems, but I do believe Pope Benedict is & will right any wrongs done.
This is a VERY TRUST WORTHY site for reviews of most links you will find post-ed on these forums. Note, this link is a review of “TIA”…
catholicculture.org/reviews/view.cfm?recnum=3026&repos=2&subrepos=&searchid=217369
Now, if you believe this forum site (CAF) is owned and managed by TRUST WORTHY folks, which I do, then they will back up my claim of Catholic Culture to be a trust worthy site!

I don’t know how old you are & if you are a cradle Catholic or convert, but if you are not that learned in the faith and want to find more of what the Church teaches, then I think a better sub forum for you would be Liturgy and Sacraments, Catholic Living & Ask an Apologist.

Other good sites are the home of this forum at catholic.com/
Their library is really good.
Another is
jimmyakin.org/
Mr.Akin is the head apologist for Catholic Answers.
If I can be of help, please PM me.
[SIGN]God bless you![/SIGN]

 

[brotherhrolf]

Sorry if that offends anyone, I have to say what I truly feel.

No offense taken and it is good to hear from others beside our Protestant brethren. I love Haydn Masses.

And, Like? I hate to disappoint you but not all traditional Catholics march in lock step with the anti-Rome, anti-Pope folks. Please keep in mind that there were many, like me, who submitted to the magesterium of HMC back in the late 60s. We were perfectly happy being Catholics. My conscience was formed before Vatican II and as I am wont to point out, I’m in my mid 50s and not dead yet. This broad-brush approach to painting all traditional Catholics as having a strict “back to the past” agenda is simply not true and demeaning to those of us who were educated in Catholic institutions during Vatican II and who took our education seriously. I am not one of those who embraced the “folk culture” of Vatican II. I am also not one of those who severed themselves from HMC. I submitted to the magesterium and I am overjoyed by what the HF has started with the MP.