Anyone Else Find Vatican II's Efforts for Ecumenism Ironic?

[holdencaulfield]

I would agree, that by traditional Catholic standards, Protestants are still heretics. Just as by the standards of traditional Judaism, reform Judaism is heresy as well.

Yes, I would agree with you. How would you like, it if we made you accept Christ. I don’t think so, that’s religion. My point was just that Pope Paul VI should be ashamed. He airs on being heretical for hurting so many peoples faith.

 

[holdencaulfield]

I thought informed Catholics knew all of this? That nonCatholics were involved in V2? Surely the traditionalists (and people like me) are not the only ones to have known this??

I must ask, what was your purpose for joining this forum. Was it to learn about other peoples religious beliefs or to merely be a troll. I only ask because of your signature. Many people here with the exception of the liberal heretics, would agree that it is fairly offensive.

 

[HashemEchad]

I must ask, what was your purpose for joining this forum. Was it to learn about other peoples religious beliefs or to merely be a troll. I only ask because of your signature. Many people here with the exception of the liberal heretics, would agree that it is fairly offensive.

I originally found this forum after doing a websearch a couple of weeks ago, after my mother’s death. I wanted to find the origin of some customs she had told me about (from her childhood as a Catholic), having to do with Holy Week.

After I got an answer to my question, I stuck around after seeing some threads about attempts to convert Jews to Catholicism.

As for my sig line, I used to have a much more congenial one, until a number of people here started trying to convert me to Catholicism, and kept asking me why Jews do not accept Jesus. To save myself LOTS of typing, I just decided to put that link in my sig line so people could click on it and get their answers themselves.

 

[holdencaulfield]

I originally found this forum after doing a websearch a couple of weeks ago, after my mother’s death. I wanted to find the origin of some customs she had told me about (from her childhood as a Catholic), having to do with Holy Week.

I am sorry for your loss.

As for my sig line, I used to have a much more congenial one, until a number of people here started trying to convert me to Catholicism, and kept asking me why Jews do not accept Jesus. To save myself LOTS of typing, I just decided to put that link in my sig line so people could click on it and get their answers themselves.

I used to go quite often on the “Non-Catholic Religions” forum on this website I stopped for several reasons. There were way to many Mormon trolls who wouldn’t listen to reason. There were way to many trolls in general who wouldn’t have a real argument to be had with people. It consisted of bad quoting, taking things out of context and was not a very good example of Christian behavior. I personally don’t care that you are Jewish. In fact I praise you for the fact that you are not “Reform” Judaism. A point that I may point out however that I think you might agree with is that there was no correct formula for the Messianic Prophecies. Nothing ever said a must equal b.

 

[I_Believe]

Do you have any documents, speeches, excerpts, etc. to support the hatred of Walter Cardinal Kasper, or is this some right wing nut talking - talking but not walking.

Oh, right, it’s you Pax.

Thankfully, with only sixty posts, mostly one liners, one can skim through your posts and see that from day one, you are here for one reason only.

 

[dyspepsic]

Protestants are heretics. There is no exception to this. They teach and follow all the heretical followings that people did for many times, that were always condemned. Why the hell would Jews and Protestants get to attend Vatican II. There not Catholic, why should they care what goes on in our faith. Shame on Pope Paul VI.

You will get nowhere by calling Jews and Protestant names. That accomplishes nothing.

Paul VI did what the Holy Spirit directed him; apparently, you know better.

 

[holdencaulfield]

You will get nowhere by calling Jews and Protestant names. That accomplishes nothing.

I don’t believe I did call them names. Besides I wouldn’t as most of my friends are Jews and Protestants, it doesn’t mean I have to agree with them however.

Paul VI did what the Holy Spirit directed him; apparently, you know better.

No I’m not going to say that I do know better, because I don’t. My point was that he made some bad choices. We all know that Popes are not Impeccable. Regardless you cannot say that Vatican II did not put the Church in trouble.

 

[pnewton]

Pnewton likewise tolerates this error by making excuses for Cardinal Kasper.

Besides the fact that this statement does nothing but continue to beg the question, it is placing on me guilt by association. Because I refuse to sit in judgment over the Cardinal, I am tolerating error. This is a mistake. I would only be guilty of tolerating error if I knew of an error, which I know of nothing other than heresay posted here. Also, I have no opportunity to address this with Cardinal Kasper. I am trying to avoid the sin of gossip. This I know to be sinful.

 

[pnewton]

Cardinal Kasper is bizarre and, while I know people think we tend to give a big “hooray” to everything the Vatican does, I think it a huge mistake to keep Kasper around. I have no idea what the Holy Father is thinking in regards to Kasper but hopefully he gave him a BIG talking to after the Anglican debacle. .

See, that is the one who is supposed to address his errors.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

I think you misunderstood me. I am a religious Jew. But I recognize that there were liberal Jewish and Protestant theologians in attendance at the 2nd Vatican Council, and they did give (name removed by moderator)ut as to some of the changes that were made regarding their own faiths (which is how Protestants went from being “heretics” to “separated brethren”, for example.)

I understand that some traditionalists feel outsiders changed their church…I just don’t feel they should blame ALL Jews, or ALL Protestants for it.

I don’t think Traditionalists blame outsiders for changing the Church. They blame the changes on liberalism, and Liberals, from within the Church. I certainly don’t blame Jews or Protestants. If the Jews or Protestants had any influence on the changes in the Church, it is the fault of those within the Church who listened to them.

 

[pnewton]

I originally found this forum after doing a websearch a couple of weeks ago, after my mother’s death. I wanted to find the origin of some customs she had told me about (from her childhood as a Catholic), having to do with Holy Week.

I like the verse in your signature. It is one of my favorites and the text of the first sermon I gave when I was younger.

 

[JReducation]

What I fail to understand is how so many people can claim to be “more Catholic than the Pope” and yet fail to follow the teachings of the popes.

Et Unum Sint and the Ecumenical Directory make several things very clear and we continue to disobey.

1. Protestants are not to be called heretics or by any other language that is offensive to them.
2. The Jews have a special link in the faith to the Catholic Church and are our older brothers and sisters in the faith. If they are our older brothers and sisters, they belong to our family, of which Christ is the head. Therefore, there must be something of the Church to be found in Judaism and thus they are not totally cut off from us.
3. The covenant with Israel has never been revoked. There aren’t two covenants. We and the Jews are part of the same covenant. In the old form of the covenant Jesus is inferred and predicted. In the new form of the covenant, Jesus is revealed and he fulfils the covenant. A covenant is not a contract which can be annulled or revoked. It is a relationship between persons. God does not discontinue his relationship with the Jewish people, because they are not Catholic. Therefore, they are united to the Catholic Church in another way, through the bond of the covenant which the Catholic Church believes. The hope is that someday the Jewish people will see the how Jesus fulfils the covenant, not to discourage them of their place in God’s heart.
4. Ecumenism is a moral obligation of every Catholic.
5. Ecumenism must begin through dialogue and prayer. It is a slow process, which will not be accomplished for a long time. But you have to begin somewhere.
6. Muslims worship the same God that we do. The Quran contains parts of revelation found in the Old Testament. Therefore, there is a connection with the Catholic Church, even if it’s a weak one.
7. The Orthodox Churches are no longer excommunicated and the Holy Father recognizes their sacramental validity and their apostolic succession.
8. Conversion to Catholicism is not done en masse, but individually. (This happened once already with the Franciscan Friars of the Atonement. When the congregation decided to join their Catholic Franciscan brothers and sisters, each friar had to be received into the Church individually. Speaking of the Franciscan Friars of the Atonement, they were commissioned by Pius XII to maintain open the relationship between the Anglicans and the Catholics. They were not aggregated to the Catholic Franciscans, but set up as an independent branch of the Order so that their primary work was to be Ecumenical dialogue with the Anglicans).

JR

 

[catharina]

I don’t believe I did call them names. Besides I wouldn’t as most of my friends are Jews and Protestants, it doesn’t mean I have to agree with them however.

No I’m not going to say that I do know better, because I don’t. My point was that he made some bad choices. We all know that Popes are not Impeccable. Regardless you cannot say that Vatican II did not put the Church in trouble.

The notion that we are called to state that a Pope “made some bad choices” is a notion that staggers me. Such a conclusion is not within our realm as members of the faithful. It would be more accurate to say that some of the faithful have made bad choices (such as choosing divisivenss following Vatican II) than to offer a comment that a Pope made some bad choices.

This sort of thinking is, for me, a heartbreaker.

 

[stmaria]

=JReducation;3523639]Et Unum Sint and the Ecumenical Directory make several things very clear and we continue to disobey.

1. Ecumenism is a moral obligation of every Catholic

.

What kind of ecumenism? The kind envisioned by Cardinal Kasper, where the Anglicans are declared to have Apostolic Succession and where the primacy of the Pope is no longer required.? Only a matter of time before the Lutherans, Methodists and maybe even the Rev. Jerimiah Wright of the Trinity Church of Christ is declared to have Apostolic Succession.
It seems as if Pope Pius XI was speaking directly to Cardinal Kasper

MORTALIUM ANIMOS
ON RELIGIOUS UNITY
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI JANUARY 6, 1928

1. And here it seems opportune to expound and to refute a certain false opinion, on which this whole question, as well as that complex movement by which non-Catholics seek to bring about the union of the Christian churches depends.** For authors who favor this view are accustomed, times almost without number, to bring forward these words of Christ: “That they all may be one… **And there shall be one fold and one shepherd,”[14] with this signification however: that Christ Jesus merely expressed a desire and prayer, which still lacks its fulfillment. For they are of the opinion that the unity of faith and government, which is a note of the one true Church of Christ, has hardly up to the present time existed, and does not to-day exist. They consider that this unity may indeed be desired and that it may even be one day attained through the instrumentality of wills directed to a common end, but that meanwhile it can only be regarded as mere ideal. They add that the Church in itself, or of its nature, is divided into sections; that is to say, that it is made up of several churches or distinct communities, which still remain separate, and although having certain articles of doctrine in common, nevertheless disagree concerning the remainder; that these all enjoy the same rights; and that the Church was one and unique from, at the most, the apostolic age until the first Ecumenical Councils. Controversies therefore, they say, and longstanding differences of opinion which keep asunder till the present day the members of the Christian family, must be entirely put aside, and from the remaining doctrines a common form of faith drawn up and proposed for belief, and in the profession of which all may not only know but feel that they are brothers. The manifold churches or communities, if united in some kind of universal federation, would then be in a position to oppose strongly and with success the progress of irreligion. This, Venerable Brethren, is what is commonly said. There are some, indeed, who recognize and affirm that Protestantism, as they call it, has rejected, with a great lack of consideration, certain articles of faith and some external ceremonies, which are, in fact, pleasing and useful, and which the Roman Church still retains. They soon, however, go on to say that that Church also has erred, and corrupted the original religion by adding and proposing for belief certain doctrines which are not only alien to the Gospel, but even repugnant to it. Among the chief of these they number that which concerns the primacy of jurisdiction, which was granted to Peter and to his successors in the See of Rome. Among them there indeed are some, though few, who grant to the Roman Pontiff a primacy of honor or even a certain jurisdiction or power, but this, however, they consider not to arise from the divine law but from the consent of the faithful. Others again, even go so far as to wish the Pontiff Himself to preside over their motley, so to say, assemblies. But, all the same, although many non-Catholics may be found who loudly preach fraternal communion in Christ Jesus, yet you will find none at all to whom it ever occurs to submit to and obey the Vicar of Jesus Christ either in His capacity as a teacher or as a governor. Meanwhile they affirm that they would willingly treat with the Church of Rome, but on equal terms, that is as equals with an equal: but even if they could so act. it does not seem open to doubt that any pact into which they might enter would not compel them to turn from those opinions which are still the reason why they err and stray from the one fold of Christ."

 

[JReducation]

No I’m not going to say that I do know better, because I don’t. My point was that he made some bad choices. We all know that Popes are not Impeccable. Regardless you cannot say that Vatican II did not put the Church in trouble.

In the Middle Ages Pope Innocent III led the Church through a very terrible time. The Church was involved in the Crusades. Monasteries were becoming centres of materialism and comfort. Secular priests did not have enough theological and philosophical education to combat the Albigensen heresy.

Dominic and Francis of Assisi saw all of this. They also saw how the power of the papacy was not serving the needs of the Church. They never mentioned a word about it. Instead, they decided to pray about it. They recieved an answer.

The Holy Spirit led Dominic to leave the secular priesthood and to become a religious. He was to found a religious order of Brother Preachers who were to be trained in the best theology and philosophy possible. They were to be men and women of prayer, aseceticism, kindness and knwoledge. They were to preach to anyone who was ready to listen, but they were not to debate.

When he approached the Pope with is vision, he was rejected. Innocent said there was no more room in the Church for another order. He ordered Dominic to join the Augustinians. Dominic was disappointed, but he did. Today the Domnicans are the largest branch of the Augustinian family. Dominic never told the Pope of his mistakes or made mention of them.

Francis too heard a voice that told him to rebuild the Church that was falling into ruins. He shared his experience with 12 others. When he had persuaded them to join him, he left to see Innocent III. Innocent declined Francis’ request to found an order to preach penance and conversion. Francis asked the Pope what he should tell Christ, for Christ had given him the rule and the mission. The Pope bowed and said, that he would allow one more religious rule into the Church, the Franciscan rule. Francis asked for his blessing and left. He never told the Pope that his church was falling into ruins. He only shared this with his friars. Today, the Franciscan order is the largest religious family in the Catholic Church with over 1 million members.

The making of great saints requires great humilty before Peter and before God.

JR

 

[PKinsale]

Et Unum Sint and the Ecumenical Directory make several things very clear and we continue to disobey.

1. Protestants are not to be called heretics or by any other language that is offensive to them.

Source on this, please?

Interestingly, there has been no brouhaha over the Good Friday prayer for heretics and schismatics as there was for the Jews.

 

[JReducation]

Source on this, please?

Interestingly, there has been no brouhaha over the Good Friday prayer for heretics and schismatics as there was for the Jews.

PONTIFICIUM CONSILIUM
AD CHRISTIANORUM UNITATEM FOVENDAM
DIRECTORY FOR THE APPLICATION OF
PRINCIPLES AND NORMS ON ECUMENISM

III-b) When speaking of other Churches and ecclesial Communities, it is important to present their teaching correctly and honestly. Among those elements by which the Church itself is built up and given life, some—even many and very valuable ones—are to be found outside the visible limits of the Catholic Church. The Spirit of Christ therefore does not refuse to use these communities as means of salvation. Doing this also puts in relief the truths of faith held in common by various Christian confessions. This will help Catholics both to deepen their own faith and to know and esteem other Christians, thus making easier the search in common for the path of full unity in the whole truth.

III-68-a) The spirit of charity, of respect, and of dialogue demands the elimination of language and prejudices which distort the image of other Christians.

A heretic is one who abandons the Church to follow error.

Et Unum Sint

Refers to those born into Protestantism as Christian member of the Reformation Churches or Christian members of other ecclesial communties, depending whether their church was a Reformation church or one of the denominations that came out of the Reformation churches, such a Methodists.

The Anglican’s would be a Reformation Church and the Lutherans. The Methodists would be an ecclesial community.

But neither document uses the term heretic. Canon law reserves that term for Catholics who commit heresy. Not for other Christians born outside the Church. The founders were heretics, because they were Catholics who left the Church. The term heretic would apply to Luther, but not to Lutherans.

So, the prayer on Good Friday is really for Catholics who have committed heresy or are schismatic.

For example, the Orthodox are no longer referred to as schismatic by the Holy Father John Paul II. Once the excommunication was lifted and the anathemas, they came to be called Sister Churches.

It’s very tricky reading, but very beautiful. Both documents focus very strongly on the common elements between all of the Christian groups and Catholics and both documents come to the conclusion, that all of the Christian communities are in communion with the Catholic church in one way or another, some more than others. This would explain how the Holy Father can declare that Christ uses them as a means of salvation. Because there is a connection through the Catholic Church to the other Christian and non Christian communities that the Spirit of Christ can use.

Therefore, salvation outside the Church still applies, but when you can find a link to the Church, then you are within the mystical body, even though imperfectly or incompletely.

The analogy that helps me understand it is the difference between an amputated limb and a broken limb. You still have your broken arm, but it needs healing nonetheless. As long as a community of any faith has some spiritual connection with the Church, they are part of the body, even though they still need healing, much like a broken limb.

The real danger here is more for Catholics who commit sins of heresy or apostasy, than for Protestants, Jews, Muslims or others who were born into their respective faiths and are faithful to what has been revealed to them about God and by God.

I know this is more than what you asked for, but I was just thinking as I was rereading the documents.

Sorry for the rambling.

JR

 

[HashemEchad]

I don’t think Traditionalists blame outsiders for changing the Church. They blame the changes on liberalism, and Liberals, from within the Church. I certainly don’t blame Jews or Protestants. If the Jews or Protestants had any influence on the changes in the Church, it is the fault of those within the Church who listened to them.

Sorry if I misunderstood the traditionalist position. Its OK, right now, I have a board member castigating me in PM, accusing me of being antisemitic (!), because I stated historical fact on this forum, which is that there were Jewish and Protestant observers at V2.

 

[PKinsale]

III-68-a) The spirit of charity, of respect, and of dialogue demands the elimination of language and prejudices which distort the image of other Christians.

A heretic is one who abandons the Church to follow error.

Sorry, you are not clear here regarding which is the direct quote and which is not. I will look these source docs up when I can. Is it Et Unum Sint or Ut Unum Sint?

I find your definition of heretic to be simplistic. Are you saying Protestants are not, ipso facto, heretics?

Interestingly, Belloc considered Muslims to be heretics.

 

[HashemEchad]

From my understanding of traditional Catholic belief, the categories are as such:

Heretic: One who claims to be a Christian, yet denies a cardinal tenet of faith (Protestant, etc)

Apostate: a baptized Christian who totally gives up the Christian faith (just about any ex-Catholic)

Infidel: An unbaptized person (Jews, Muslims, etc)

Schismatic: One who claims to be Christian but refuses to be in authority to the Pope of Rome (Eastern Orthodox, etc)