Anyone notice the irony here: Catholics criticising Muslims and Islam on this forum

[Lapell]

Too bad the muslims don’t have some rules of conduct - like telling the truth on these sites instead of following their koran and deceiving us.

No one is asking them to fight the radicals because if they haven’t done it so far - they won’t and are in fact, just following their koran and hadiths and deceiving us and supporting the jihadists by telling us either that islam is peaceful, or the radicals are misinterpreting the koran when in fact they are following it to a ‘T’. And there are other things they do to confuse the issue like calling us bigots, islamophobes, etc.

While the word ‘victim’ and ‘persecution’ are thrown around by them while muslims slaughter Christians and other non-muslims worldwide. I suppose that is not being a ‘victim’ or being ‘persecuted’ in a muslim’s viewpoint since they are only infidels.

Heaven forbid that anyone ask the masses of ‘moderates’ to do anything to stop this violence. Even in the countries that they are newly establishing themselves into. With rape, beatings, kidnappings, chaos and destruction going on in Europe and India and elsewhere where they are gaining a strong foothold - heaven forbid we ask them to stop it and speak against those who do such things. No, no, no - we should not even hint at such an action by these so called ‘moderate’ ones. Anyway, no one has asked that of them on these threads - just to stop the deception though has been asked. Instead what happens is that one brave soul might speak up and viola - there goes his head! I personally do not want to see that.

but, if we don’t call them on what they are doing and to change their ways - we are just blowing hot air into the wind. If they don’t stop their utter arrogance that makes them feel superior while we are there as cattle for them to slaughter - then why are we doing this?! On a different thread a muslim woman came out and is thumbing her nose at our laws and committing polygamy. What this means is that they are indeed bringing sharia law into our lands and just ignoring our laws.

As an infidel, I find this disgusting. We give them freedoms and the ability to peacefully raise their families and live - and they thumb their nose at us, our laws and work towards establishing sharia law in our lands whether by violence, or deception - the end result is the same - death to us, conversion, or subjugation of us (dhimmitude).

How are you so sure, R_not, that paarsurrey was lying? And to assume ALL of them lie is a rather grave thing in my view!

 

[Lapell]

Catholics and the Church are bombarded with insults by the wider society, and yet many of us are more interested in criticising Islam and its followers. Many of you are saying how illogical and unbelievable Islam is, yet have nothing to say in answer to the same charges being pressed against you by atheists.

The thing is, many of you seem to be claiming to be devout Catholics. Yeah right. I hope you guys don’t expect those oh so sarcastic atheists that post here to start believing in Catholicism after reading the trash that gets posted here.

Why don’t we unite against secularism? Or is that a stupid idea? We all worship the one God after all. The CCC says so. Or is the CC wrong about that?

If it’s the CCC that says so, I do believe it’s the truth.

 

[Joero]

Joero,I still believe the whole of each Surah and of the whole Qor’an must be read in their context. Even though it’s not our Sacred Book!

Not necessary, I think, for there are explicit verses that no need of contextual understanding. Such as these:

Surah 4: 89 ---- " Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. "

Surah 4: 76 ---- " Believers fight for Allah, disbelievers fight for the devil. So fight the minions of the devil. "

Surah 5: 45 ---- " Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth. Non-muslims are wrong doers."

These are the example of explicit verses and no need for one to scrutinize the real meaning of it. Even a grader pupil can understand it. And for me to read the Koran, I think, it would be a waste of time. The posts of R_not exposing those verses of Koran, important verses, are enough for me.

 

[planten]

Not necessary, I think, for there are explicit verses that no need of contextual understanding. Such as these:

Surah 4: 89 ---- " Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. "

Surah 4: 76 ---- " Believers fight for Allah, disbelievers fight for the devil. So fight the minions of the devil. "

Surah 5: 45 ---- " Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth. Non-muslims are wrong doers."

These are the example of explicit verses and no need for one to scrutinize the real meaning of it. Even a grader pupil can understand it. And for me to read the Koran, I think, it would be a waste of time. The posts of R_not exposing those verses of Koran, important verses, are enough for me.

**Please see the verses again, below with additional few verses next to them for easy understanding:

[4:74] Let those then fight in the cause of Allah who would sell the present life for the Hereafter. And whoso fights in the cause of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, We shall soon give him a great reward.

[4:75] And why should you not fight in the cause of Allah and for the rescue of the weak men, women and children - who say, 'Our Lord, take us out of this town whose people are oppressors,** and give us a friend from Thyself and give us from Thyself a helper.' 

[4:76] Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who are Kafir ( i.e. enemies of Islam) fight in the cause of the Evil One. Fight ye, therefore, against the friends of Satan; surely, Satan's strategy is weak. 

[4:77] Hast thou not seen those to whom it was said : 'Restrain your hands, observe Prayer, and pay the Zakat.' And when fighting is prescribed for them, behold! A section of them fear men as they should fear Allah, or with still greater fear; and they say, 'Our Lord, why hast thou prescribed fighting for us? Wouldst Thou not grant us respite yet a while?' Say, 'The benefit of this world is little and the Hereafter will be better for him who fears Allah; and you shall not be wronged a whit.' 

[4:78] Wheresoever you may be, death will overtake you, even if you be in strongly built towers. And if some good befalls them, they say, 'This is from Allah;' and if evil befalls them, they say, 'This is from thee (Muhammad).' Say, 'All is from Allah.' What has happened to these people that they would not try to understand anything?

Please read the verse 4:76 with other verses to understand things that Islam does not prescribe to fight against any decent peaceful person. That matter is proved to you with context. More later.

 

[Lapell]

Not necessary, I think, for there are explicit verses that no need of contextual understanding. Such as these:

Surah 4: 89 ---- " Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. "

Surah 4: 76 ---- " Believers fight for Allah, disbelievers fight for the devil. So fight the minions of the devil. "

Surah 5: 45 ---- " Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth. Non-muslims are wrong doers."

These are the example of explicit verses and no need for one to scrutinize the real meaning of it. Even a grader pupil can understand it. And for me to read the Koran, I think, it would be a waste of time. The posts of R_not exposing those verses of Koran, important verses, are enough for me.

It’s not just the Bible that it’s dangerous to read out of context. It’s like clips of quotes taken out of context in the news on T.V. , they’re not always faithful to the true picture, and it’s not as rare as you may think!

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

**Please see the verses again, below with additional few verses next to them for easy understanding:

[4:74] Let those then fight in the cause of Allah who would sell the present life for the Hereafter. And whoso fights in the cause of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, We shall soon give him a great reward.

[4:75] And why should you not fight in the cause of Allah and for the rescue of the weak men, women and children - who say, 'Our Lord, take us out of this town whose people are oppressors,** and give us a friend from Thyself and give us from Thyself a helper.' 

[4:76] Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who are Kafir ( i.e. enemies of Islam) fight in the cause of the Evil One. Fight ye, therefore, against the friends of Satan; surely, Satan's strategy is weak. 

[4:77] Hast thou not seen those to whom it was said : 'Restrain your hands, observe Prayer, and pay the Zakat.' And when fighting is prescribed for them, behold! A section of them fear men as they should fear Allah, or with still greater fear; and they say, 'Our Lord, why hast thou prescribed fighting for us? Wouldst Thou not grant us respite yet a while?' Say, 'The benefit of this world is little and the Hereafter will be better for him who fears Allah; and you shall not be wronged a whit.' 

[4:78] Wheresoever you may be, death will overtake you, even if you be in strongly built towers. And if some good befalls them, they say, 'This is from Allah;' and if evil befalls them, they say, 'This is from thee (Muhammad).' Say, 'All is from Allah.' What has happened to these people that they would not try to understand anything?

Please read the verse 4:76 with other verses to understand things that Islam does not prescribe to fight against any decent peaceful person. That matter is proved to you with context. More later.

Your interpretation of the text is interesting. If anything, your added verses show just how hateful the Koran is. Who these oppressors are is the crux of the matter. And you even add “decent peaceful person”. Well, who that decent peaceful person is depends on your opinion and the opinion of Muslims worldwide.

And who are the oppressors is also up to debate. Your definition of the oppressors is anyone who is not a Muslim and struggles against Islam. So, there you have it. Jews and Christians are the oppressors. You are caught in your own web of deceit.

MW

 

[Lapell]

At the time those verses were written, were the “enemies of Islam” not prone to persecute the Muslims, harm them and kill them out of rejection and hatred?

 

[Joero]

**Please see the verses again, below with additional few verses next to them for easy understanding:

[4:74] Let those then fight in the cause of Allah who would sell the present life for the Hereafter. And whoso fights in the cause of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, We shall soon give him a great reward.

[4:75] And why should you not fight in the cause of Allah and for the rescue of the weak men, women and children - who say, 'Our Lord, take us out of this town whose people are oppressors,** and give us a friend from Thyself and give us from Thyself a helper.' 

[4:76] Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who are Kafir ( i.e. enemies of Islam) fight in the cause of the Evil One. Fight ye, therefore, against the friends of Satan; surely, Satan's strategy is weak. 

[4:77] Hast thou not seen those to whom it was said : 'Restrain your hands, observe Prayer, and pay the Zakat.' And when fighting is prescribed for them, behold! A section of them fear men as they should fear Allah, or with still greater fear; and they say, 'Our Lord, why hast thou prescribed fighting for us? Wouldst Thou not grant us respite yet a while?' Say, 'The benefit of this world is little and the Hereafter will be better for him who fears Allah; and you shall not be wronged a whit.' 

[4:78] Wheresoever you may be, death will overtake you, even if you be in strongly built towers. And if some good befalls them, they say, 'This is from Allah;' and if evil befalls them, they say, 'This is from thee (Muhammad).' Say, 'All is from Allah.' What has happened to these people that they would not try to understand anything?

Please read the verse 4:76 with other verses to understand things that Islam does not prescribe to fight against any decent peaceful person. That matter is proved to you with context. More later.

The verses that I have posted were from the former posts of R_not. You can see it if you would try to seek for it. As to the veracity of his posted verses and as well as your’s, I can not comment on that because I do not have the Koran at hand.
It would be better if R_not would be the one to follow it up or anybody on this fora who is a christian that knows about your holy Koran.
I’m sorry, I can not make any comment on that as of now.

 

[Joero]

It’s not just the Bible that it’s dangerous to read out of context. It’s like clips of quotes taken out of context in the news on T.V. , they’re not always faithful to the true picture, and it’s not as rare as you may think!

I know that! That’s why christians were divided into many denominations. The tone of your statement seems to suggest that you know the Koran. Why not try to evaluate the veracity of the posted verses of R_not and planten?

 

[whiteknite]

Originally Posted by planten
Please see the verses again, below with additional few verses next to them for easy understanding:

[4:74] Let those then fight in the cause of Allah who would sell the present life for the Hereafter. And whoso fights in the cause of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, We shall soon give him a great reward.

[4:75] And why should you not fight in the cause of Allah and for the rescue of the weak men, women and children - who say, ‘Our Lord, take us out of this town whose people are oppressors, and give us a friend from Thyself and give us from Thyself a helper.’

[4:76] Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who are Kafir ( i.e. enemies of Islam) fight in the cause of the Evil One. Fight ye, therefore, against the friends of Satan; surely, Satan’s strategy is weak.

[4:77] Hast thou not seen those to whom it was said : ‘Restrain your hands, observe Prayer, and pay the Zakat.’ And when fighting is prescribed for them, behold! A section of them fear men as they should fear Allah, or with still greater fear; and they say, ‘Our Lord, why hast thou prescribed fighting for us? Wouldst Thou not grant us respite yet a while?’ Say, ‘The benefit of this world is little and the Hereafter will be better for him who fears Allah; and you shall not be wronged a whit.’

[4:78] Wheresoever you may be, death will overtake you, even if you be in strongly built towers. And if some good befalls them, they say, ‘This is from Allah;’ and if evil befalls them, they say, ‘This is from thee (Muhammad).’ Say, ‘All is from Allah.’ What has happened to these people that they would not try to understand anything?

Please read the verse 4:76 with other verses to understand things that Islam does not prescribe to fight against any decent peaceful person. That matter is proved to you with context. More later.

That shows you how inteligent Muslims must be…
They sound like the words of a madman rambling on…
Muslims need to re-educate themselves and find some sort of hobbie…
Maybe Flower arranging??
If i remember right didnt the Muslims Burn a church down in spain a few Centrys ago, Which was the first strike against Christians??
That was the reason for the Knights being sent by the Pope…
I might be wrong…
Muslims that blow Muslims up is the 1 thing i cant understand…
It seems to me that the hole world is against Muslims,
Even MUSLIMS… Dont make sense to me no matter how its put.

 

[kungfubob]

Islam is just wrong.It is the work of Satan. The Catholic Church also cannot point the finger at Islam as it has murdered on a genocidic scale for centurys yet they think they have done nothing wrong. The political similarities over centuries are uncanny and the historical facts are there for anyone to see. To me both are dominated with evil,we see it everyday but followers are so indoctrinated since their birth that they believe they are right.Many Catholics dont know the truth and dont want to know it in fear of the back-lash from priests etc. as for followers of Islam,your all going straight to Hell unquestionably along with many Catholics. We are told in black and white not to worship false idols,or say babbling prayers yet both religions do both and center their faith on them. I left the Catholic Church after reading the Bible,i havent joined any other Church and nor will i return as i now see the truth that Jesus wanted us to know. I suggest followers of both religions do the same before its too late.

 

[Lapell]

I see many Catholics debating the absurdity of atheism in the philosophy and apologetics section. There’s always several atheism threads going there. Plus, Muslims come to this forum telling Christians that Jesus is not Divine, He didn’t die on the cross, etc. ad infinitum and use the Koran and the Bible to do so. At least atheists use their misguided philosophy against us instead of our own Bible to tell us how wrong we are.
A little judgmental about fellow Catholics, aren’t you?

For all the things I usually disagree with R_not and Mystic Warrior, I find this, however, to be a point unfortunately true. I confess that I disliked the way Hamba2han, for one, used verses from the Gospels to “justify” “Jesus’ call to jihad” (material and physical) and the way he didn’t seem to care what we did respond; and he also said that we were wrong.
Was he just doing this in response to someone among us who was trying the same thing with the Muslims? Maybe, I don’t know.
(I don’t think I was, though, it was only my first participation… under another name. I changed it afterwards and have kept it up to now…)
Anyway, I didn’t think it was a respectful way to deal with Biblical Scripture and Christians… I hope our Muslim friends won’t mind my having said this.
That being said, I still think it unwise to generalize and make all of the Muslims like they’re all devils and dragons, liars and all that.

 

[Lapell]

Islam is just wrong.It is the work of Satan. The Catholic Church also cannot point the finger at Islam as it has murdered on a genocidic scale for centurys yet they think they have done nothing wrong.

Even though Catholics did wrong things supposedly in the name of God, can you prove me that in doing so they were acting according to a teaching of the Church?
If the Catholic Church taught it, you could say the Church did it, but if it were not the case, no matter how many Catholics would be involved (and it never was the totality of her members, not even the whole of the clergy!), then you cannot say it’s the Church! It’s Catholics, maybe, but not “the Catholics” or “the Catholic Church”!
You have a lot to learn about the Church as founded by Jesus Himself! Please be careful what you say about “the Church”, you might become guilty of false testimony before God, you know! (You might fall among the millions who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church… )

 

[whiteknite]

Islam is just wrong.It is the work of Satan. The Catholic Church also cannot point the finger at Islam as it has murdered on a genocidic scale for centurys yet they think they have done nothing wrong. The political similarities over centuries are uncanny and the historical facts are there for anyone to see. To me both are dominated with evil,we see it everyday but followers are so indoctrinated since their birth that they believe they are right.Many Catholics dont know the truth and dont want to know it in fear of the back-lash from priests etc. as for followers of Islam,your all going straight to Hell unquestionably along with many Catholics. We are told in black and white not to worship false idols,or say babbling prayers yet both religions do both and center their faith on them. I left the Catholic Church after reading the Bible,i havent joined any other Church and nor will i return as i now see the truth that Jesus wanted us to know. I suggest followers of both religions do the same before its too late.

I couldnt have put that any better Bob…

Catholics forget about killing in the name of God…
OT is packed full of examples of killing for God…
The only thing now is we all got “Civilised” Supposedly…
Although i did see a thread on here about a Catholic asking should we invade Burma…
Millions are dying, Yes we know. BUT if we invade, How many more will die in fighting??
But then again!! Just point the finger and shout WITCH.
Then every Christian will want to go and Kill [in the name of God]

 

[whiteknite]

Even though Catholics did wrong things supposedly in the name of God, can you prove me that in doing so they were acting according to a teaching of the Church?
If the Catholic Church taught it, you could say the Church did it, but if it were not the case, no matter how many Catholics would be involved (and it never was the totality of her members, not even the whole of the clergy!), then you cannot say it’s the Church! It’s Catholics, maybe, but not “the Catholics” or “the Catholic Church”!
You have a lot to learn about the Church as founded by Jesus Himself! Please be careful what you say about “the Church”, you might become guilty of false testimony before God, you know! (You might fall among the millions who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church… )

Was it not the Church that ordered the Spanish Incuisition??
Was it not the Church that ordered the killing of all witches??
Was it not the DIRECT orders of God for moses to kill 3 thousand men women and children, For worshiping a false idol??

 

[Lapell]

I know that! That’s why christians were divided into many denominations. The tone of your statement seems to suggest that you know the Koran. Why not try to evaluate the veracity of the posted verses of R_not and planten?

I don’t know so many verses of the Qor’an, really… but I do know that there is a connection between the Surahs and specific events… and I have a biography of Muhammad by a Rumanian Orthodox priest who also wrote novels (among them The 25th Hour), Virgil C. Gheorghiu… It seems the verses are to be taken in the context of the events happening then, I certainly believe it. What made some of Muhammad’s opponents stronger than him change their hearts and follow him? And what made some people, among them women, stick to that new faith in face of death threats? You have to think for a minute or two… Also, I doubt that Christians not following a heresy were much around at that time!

 

[Lapell]

But also, it’s a principle I had learned in my couses in translation: a word or a sentence has its proper meaning when in context. Not just in reading a sacred text, we were not then! (We would translate newspaper articles, things like that.)
It’s a general principle. So even in other areas than religion, it’s a very, very important thing to have and keep in mind!
And this is why I find such a thing very worth repeating!
Very simple, yet not simplistic.

 

[rinnie]

Anyone who does not believe in Jesus Christ scares the heck out of me. I guess I will just say I would rather keep my distance from anyone who does not believe in Jesus. Sorry. Also I dont think Catholics are the only ones criticising Muslims on 911 I think the whole country did a pretty good job.

 

[rinnie]

Anyone who does not believe in Jesus Christ scares the heck out of me. I guess I will just say I would rather keep my distance from anyone who does not believe in Jesus. Sorry. Also I dont think Catholics are the only ones criticising Muslims on 911 I think the whole country did a pretty good job.

 

[rinnie]

Anyone who does not believe in Jesus Christ scares the heck out of me. I guess I will just say I would rather keep my distance from anyone who does not believe in Jesus. Sorry. Also I dont think Catholics are the only ones criticising Muslims on 911 I think the whole country did a pretty good job.