Anyone notice the irony here: Catholics criticising Muslims and Islam on this forum

[morning_star777]

Why do you not capitalize the “G” in God

sorry i was unconscious about “G”.

 

[c659smith]

sorry i was unconscious about “G”.

in the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was god

Why do you then still post with the “g” in God not capitalized?

 

[planten]

Dear Planten,

Jesus tells us that He is the ONLY WAY to God (John 14:6). No one can come to God without Jesus. Jesus is also the Words of God. Off course you are correct that NO ONE including Mohammad and Moses ever have the same claim as Jesus, because they are much less than Jesus, and still need to be saved.

** I am sorry. I do not have the exact words of Jesus. I feel that he siad “I am the way…” He did not say “I am the only way…” His words we Muslims understand very well. We believe he was right.**

You are still praying for Muhammad, so that God will reward him, correct? If I can’t get the verse in Quran, I can ask my brothers Sam and/or Morningstar to help me. If it is true, then tell me why? You are not sure that Muhammad has been rewarded?

There is no need to look for the verse. Muhammad was a humble servant of Allah as was jesus too and all other prophets. So it is all right for the Muslims to pray for their dear ones, Muhammad and Jesus being some of them. This is true. No need to look for that verse to prove it. It is already proved and we admit our weakness in that matter compared to the christians who have raised the rank of a humble servant of God (Jesus) to undue heights. That is illegal.
Muslims do not believe in any walking and talking human god.

We don’t pray for Jesus, but we pray to Jesus, because Jesus is the Words of God, With God, and is God.

**This is wrong. We Muslims do not believe that and I am sure that the Jews also who are the leaders (predecessors) in religion of the christian and Muslim religion, they also do not believe what you have written above.

In fact it is the greatest sin to qualify some one equal to God. The Jews know it as blasphemy. The Muslims consider it as the greatest sin. So, now you understand where you stand as per Judaism and Islam. None of the Jews or the Muslims will go near your religion. But you can have what you like.**

You are correct that we can’t beat your “Good” teaching of Muhammad. You see, Jesus never teach us to KILL the Unbeliever, never teach us to LIE in whatever condition (because the devil is the father of all lies), never teach us to SUBDUED other human by imposing funny tax system, never teach us BEAT our wife, and… (shall I proceed?, I better let others fill in the blank for me).

**You are right. Jesus did not teach to kill any unbeliever. Muhammad also did not teach that. Muhammad never taught to kill any innocent peaceful person.

Where Jesus could not teach his followers the complete truth, Muhammad did it. Jesus had the paln to do it but did not have time for that. Remember that the word Kaafir means a hostile disbeliever, an antagonist type of disbeliever, an aggressive disbeliever.

That is the disbeliever who tries to beat and kill the believers, like the Jews of the time of Jesus, or like the people of King Pharoah of Egypt. More in next post soon…**

 

[planten]

Swariffin: .
You are really really correct, Planten. In the killing business, Muhammad is number one. No one can beat Muhammad, and I agree with you in this case. Muhammad did not preach that Jesus is God, because of the last two paragraph of this posting. If Muhammad preach that Jesus is God, then he must follow Jesus’ teaching, otherwise he could never declare himself as prophet.

**Thanks for the post. Your religion is unnatural. See any book of law of any country. There are punishments prescribed for the crimes. Even beating the wife may be necessary. The students are punished in school, specially, in U.K. the teachers previously had the right to punish the students with stripes. Is that in the love of Jesus??
Please be kind and think if your misconstructed self made teaching (not the teachings of Jesus) are quite unnatural. Jesus did not teach all that. If he did something good then you did not understand it and made a mess of it by your own ideas. That is not the fault or failure of Jesus.
I did not know that you were a christian. I thought that you were a free thinker and more inclined to atheism. Please clarify your faith. Thanks.
**

The problem that we see that Muhammad’s teaching is completely the opposite of Jesus’ teaching. So, no wonder that Muhammad did not and could not preach that Jesus is God. I personally happy that Muhammad did not preach much about Jesus because his teaching is contradictory to what Jesus’ teaching.

**There is no contradiction between the Muhammad’s teachings and the Jesus teachings. Only difference is in your self induced (human intervention) teachings and Muhammad’s teachings.

Jesus was not God and he did not send Muhamamd as a prophet because he Jesus was not a God. Jesus did not send Abraham or Moses as a prophet. Please be kind and think. Did Jesus ever say that he sent Moses and Issac and Jacob as prophets in the world. Nowhere is such a thing written inbible NT and you are making up things for nothing. Your teachings cannot stand at all. Jesus says that was himself sent. And he never said that he sent or made any one a prophet. Can you show such things from yoru bible NT??

They are your personal teachings. they are not from Jesus. You have made them up yourself. So they cannot stand up to any impartial fair minded investigation.**

Good posting Planten, you admit yourself that Muhammad is number one and no one can beat him in his kind of teaching

.

** I do not say anything about it now because I have discussed the various teachings in detail above. Thank you.

In the end, I may say that the teachings of Judaism and Islam can stand up well. But the teachings of church (Not the real teachings of Jesus) cannot stand up any more. Those church teachings will disappear soon by the will of God.**

 

[swariffin]

** **You are right. Jesus did not teach to kill any unbeliever. Muhammad also did not teach that. Muhammad never taught to kill any innocent peaceful person.

Where Jesus could not teach his followers the complete truth, Muhammad did it. Jesus had the paln to do it but did not have time for that. Remember that the word Kaafir means a hostile disbeliever, an antagonist type of disbeliever, an aggressive disbeliever.

That is the disbeliever who tries to beat and kill the believers, like the Jews of the time of Jesus, or like the people of King Pharoah of Egypt. More in next post soon…****

Dear Planten,

Sorry I cut your other posting, because I do not wish to touch the differences of our theology. As I mentioned in my previous posting, you are a kind of Muslim that have good view toward others. You can see also how hard I try to persuade others not to be sarcastic to you and other, because I also believe in peaceful approach.

It is sad for me Planten (perhaps to you too), that not all Muslims share the same thinking as yours. I do have many Muslim friends whom I trust very much. It is to me that your Quran happens to be so easily be twisted so much that other groups of Muslims can have their own interpretations. Further, to the point of view of us, the non-Muslims, those interpretations at a certain level are contradictory to one another. It is also happen that there is no single authority in your religion who can be the representative of all Muslims.

Logically, Planten, you may claim that the only representative of Islam is Muhammad, himself. I can understand that, but at this point, Muhammad is no longer with us, correct? Since there is no single representative of Islam, and many Islamic groups have different interpretations, that sure looks like chaos to us, as the outsider. Do you see my point? That condition can be interpreted, also logically, that Islam is some sort of “leaderless people” (perhaps I need to say sorry for this word). Consequently, history also said that “leaderless people” tends to be a “disturbance” to the surrounding civilization (although actually it is not necessarily be that way).

To my regret, that many people (in my view) tend to see Islam as some sort of threat to others. Where is the root? Again, logically they will tend to look for the earliest source, which is the Quran and Muhammad himself. As the result, they go against both the Quran and Muhammad. The problem for Muslims, the issue of Quran and Muhammad is “non-negotiable” or “untouchable”. The result is, we have a circular problem that is endless.

 

[Memaw]

not all terrorists are Muslim, what about the Colombian rebels who kidnap westerners? they’re labelled as terrorists and yet, they ALL bless themselves before they say the Hail Mary.

We all all what Muslims call “people of the book”. This means we all follow the one God.

The tactics of Satan are completely visible in this global issue. He has employed the tactic of divide and conquer. He has us fighting each other to the point where we are starting to use his influence in dealing with others. The words against Muslims and other Christian beliefs I have seen recently written and spoken by Christians and Catholics have been loaded with HATE. We cannot hate, we must love God with all our hearts and our neighbour as ourselves.

Does this mean that we can only love neighbours who think like us? I don’t think this is what Jesus meant.

PLEASE STOP THE HATRED. We must not go to heaven to see the one God with any hate on our hearts.

I love you all.

You have that backwards, I’m afraid, Its not in Catholic teaching to kill all infidels, and it is not the Catholics that spread lies and more lies about other Christian denominations. Seems to me the hate or whatever you call it comes from them not us. I do love my enemies, and I do pray for them, but I DON"T have to like what they do or stand for, if it is against the teachings of Jesus Christ. Jesus stood against evil and sin and so should we, no matter where it comes from.

 

[Lapell]

dear brother swariffin,i agree with ur post.actually you know when muhamed met the nestorian(heretic) priest bahira then bahira addressed that he(M) wil be the prophet of god.later this story make the way easy for muhamed to claim himself as a prophet.but is a nestorian a christian?never.so who knows maybe it was the conspiracy,between BAHIRA&MUHAMED.actually a heretic man can be a good fellow to another heretic man..

Is a Nestorian a Christian, though a heretic? I think the answer is yes, just as our Protestant brothers do not agree with all of the teachings of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, yet they still are Christians because they believe in Jesus the Christ. Though mistaken on certain things about Jesus, Nestorians believe in Him, so we can indeed call them Christians, it seems to me…

 

[Lapell]

My own father used to say: “Never beat a woman, not even with a flower!” (whatever he meant by that last part it eludes me!!!)

 

[Lapell]

You have that backwards, I’m afraid, Its not in Catholic teaching to kill all infidels, and it is not the Catholics that spread lies and more lies about other Christian denominations. Seems to me the hate or whatever you call it comes from them not us. I do love my enemies, and I do pray for them, but I DON"T have to like what they do or stand for, if it is against the teachings of Jesus Christ. Jesus stood against evil and sin and so should we, no matter where it comes from.

In theory, I agree with you. But what he was referring to was about some people on our side in these threads who have had expressed themselves in a rather prejudiced way…

 

[Lapell]

Planten, I understand that you mean well, but you don’t read the Gospel the way we do, and you don’t seem to accept the New Testament as it is, and you are apparently trying to tell the Christians what to believe, especially in a Catholic website… What we believe we are sure it’s true, and what you believe I am sure you are sure it’s the truth. If you want to say that some, or many, of us are attacking your faith, you are free to ask them to speak in defense of your faith. You don’t have to attack our faith because of those, O. K.! Not all of us agree with those who make generalizations against all of Islam, but don’t attack what we believe if you are a man of peace like you say (for example that Jesus is God we Christians do believe it, it’s all true Christians who do so, it’s part of our faith, we believe it to be the truth and you can’t change it! O.K.?)

I guess you haven’t read this post of mine, or you chose to ignore it, Planten. What we Catholics and Christians believe about Jesus being God we have always believed that from the very beginnings of the Church. That WON’T CHANGE. Why do you keep going back to the argument that it’s a man-made doctrine even after our telling you repeatedly this? My friend, please don’t bring this argument again, if you’re a man of peace. Otherwise I won’t believe you if you say you are just looking for peace between us. Thanks!

 

[inJESUS]

** I am sorry. I do not have the exact words of Jesus. I feel that he siad “I am the way…” He did not say “I am the only way…” His words we Muslims understand very well. We believe he was right.**

what is this Planten? Islamic logic? He says am THE way, not “a way”.

Muslims do not believe in any walking and talking human god.

i guess your salafi brothers did not mind saying that Allah has a real hand and chin and face and feet and hands, that He ascends and descends and walks…if you have a problem, then at least Allah did not mind attributing to himself human characteristics…if he was so scandalized, he could have used different words yet Allah chose human characteristics to describ himself, though Muslims will run saying that Allah’s face and chin and eyes and hands are not like ours (whatever that means, if it means anything anyway).

This is wrong. We Muslims do not believe that and I am sure that the Jews also who are the leaders (predecessors) in religion of the christian and Muslim religion, they also do not believe what you have written above. Jews do not believe this because they do not believe in Jesus in the first place. Muslims do not believe in this because you follow gnostics. So your argument is flawed.

In fact it is the greatest sin to qualify some one equal to God. .

in fact, you believe the Quran is eternal and uncreated, you are polytheistic.

You are right. Jesus did not teach to kill any unbeliever. Muhammad also did not teach that. Muhammad never taught to kill any innocent peaceful person. yet he taught to kill unbelievers…their “innocence” was determined was Muhammad…like if a Jew wrote a satirical poem, he was not “innocent” to Muhammad so go kill him.

Where Jesus could not teach his followers the complete truth,

unbiblical

Muhammad did it.

and the complete truth lies in plaiarizing gnosticism , apocrypha and legends? is that how Muhammad perfected your religiion by attributing to God legends and gnosticism?

That is the disbeliever who tries to beat and kill the believers, like the Jews of the time of Jesus,

yet Jesus did not ask His followers to kill them. You just shot your argument.

 

[inJESUS]

Thanks for the post. Your religion is unnatural. See any book of law of any country. There are punishments prescribed for the crimes. Even beating the wife may be necessary. The students are punished in school, specially, in U.K. the teachers previously had the right to punish the students with stripes. Is that in the love of Jesus??

no beating has nothing to do with love. When Muhammad asked you to beat your wives, he was putting words in God’s mouth that God is free from.

There is no contradiction between the Muhammad’s teachings and the Jesus teachings. Only difference is in your self induced (human intervention) teachings and Muhammad’s teachings.

 

[Memaw]

The worst enemies of the Church are Satan and his minions.

Christ promised that the “gates of Hell” will NOT prevail against HIS Church, the Catholic Church. And they haven’t!

 

[inJESUS]

forget about logical answers…there are none…the answer is : Muhammad said so.

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

Please stay on topic folks. Thanks

God bless-

Rachel

 

[rinnie]

i want to add something in my previous post.i wont discuss about islam soon that not meant that i am leaving the field.i will just wait&see.then i will say something with more prove.but it will depend upon the next situation.as an ex muslim how can i stop argue with them?after all i am in life threat.if the peacefull muslim will know that i became christian secretly then they will cut me in piece!(its the order of islam)is it peace?maybe YES

Morning Star i couldnt help thinking of you all weekend, you are a truely amazing person. I have prayed for you all weekend and will continue to pray for you. You have told the truth of what it is like, and taught me alot. The day Jesus Christ takes you out of this world morning star, you will meet him. I know you will, you faith rather short and new is Beautiful, and amazing. To be able to worship Jesus Christ is so easy for us, you have showed me how lucky we are. You are a chosen one, God chose you and you ran straight to him. You sure showed me alot. Again you will be in my prayers until the day i die.

 

[morning_star777]

dear friend rinnie,thanks alot that you prayed for me.i am gratefull to you and also gratefull to those ppl who pray for me.yes my friend continue to pray for me in future.your pray will be very usefull for me.thanks again.may lord jesus make you the happiest lady in the world.

 

[swariffin]

Thanks for the post. Your religion is unnatural. See any book of law of any country.

Why do a religion must have something to do with public law? You just confirm that ISLAM and POLITIC are one.
"planten'3730690:

There are punishments prescribed for the crimes. Even beating the wife may be necessary. The students are punished in school, specially, in U.K. the teachers previously had the right to punish the students with stripes. Is that in the love of Jesus??

Who has the right to deliver punishment? You violate the law of a country, the country will punish you. You violate the law of God, then God will punish you. It is simple. Why do you think a husband can punish the wife, does the husband make law?

Why do you compare the teaching of Jesus with the teachers in the UK? Are you saying that Jesus teach in UK elementary school? I don’t understand your logic.

Please be kind and think if your misconstructed self made teaching (not the teachings of Jesus) are quite unnatural. Jesus did not teach all that. If he did something good then you did not understand it and made a mess of it by your own ideas. That is not the fault or failure of Jesus.
I did not know that you were a christian. I thought that you were a free thinker and more inclined to atheism. Please clarify your faith. Thanks.

What do you thing the teaching of Jesus? What do you understand about Jesus? Why do I need a Muslim like you to judge the Christianity of somebody? Another of your logic I don’t understand.

There is no contradiction between the Muhammad’s teachings and the Jesus teachings. Only difference is in your self induced (human intervention) teachings and Muhammad’s teachings.

You admit in the previous post that Jesus do not Kill. You also agree that Muhammad killed the unbeliever (whatever judgement of unbeliever that he had). Why do you say that NOT KILL equals to KILL. Moses also bring the law of God “Thou shall not KILL”. Not only Muhammad teaching in contradiction with Christianity, he is also in contradiction with Judaism as well.

Jesus was not God and he did not send Muhamamd as a prophet because he Jesus was not a God. Jesus did not send Abraham or Moses as a prophet. Please be kind and think. Did Jesus ever say that he sent Moses and Issac and Jacob as prophets in the world. Nowhere is such a thing written inbible NT and you are making up things for nothing. Your teachings cannot stand at all. Jesus says that was himself sent. And he never said that he sent or made any one a prophet. Can you show such things from yoru bible NT??

In this Christianity a la Islam? Congratulation, you are opening a new Christian denomination.

They are your personal teachings. they are not from Jesus. You have made them up yourself. So they cannot stand up to any impartial fair minded investigation.

When I say Jesus is God, is it my personal teaching? When I say Jesus never teach to kill, is it my personal teaching? Now, you tell me, what do you know about Christianity?

In the end, I may say that the teachings of Judaism and Islam can stand up well. But the teachings of church (Not the real teachings of Jesus) cannot stand up any more. Those church teachings will disappear soon by the will of God.

The two religions (Islam and Judaism) which you claim can stand up well, are now fighting each other. But, that is not what I want to discuss about those two.

 

[swariffin]

Is a Nestorian a Christian, though a heretic? I think the answer is yes, just as our Protestant brothers do not agree with all of the teachings of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, yet they still are Christians because they believe in Jesus the Christ. Though mistaken on certain things about Jesus, Nestorians believe in Him, so we can indeed call them Christians, it seems to me…

Dear Lapell,

You are correct. Nestorius also believe the Deity of Jesus. The difference is how that Deity is described. Basically, all others things with the teaching of the Church were agreed by him. Perhaps the term heresy is not 100% correct either. Modern Theologist found out differences of terminology used by Nestorius for the same Greek word yield the misunderstanding with other Theologist at his time, especially to Cyrillus.

 

[planten]

Dear Planten,

Sorry I cut your other posting, because I do not wish to touch the differences of our theology. As I mentioned in my previous posting, you are a kind of Muslim that have good view toward others. You can see also how hard I try to persuade others not to be sarcastic to you and other, because I also believe in peaceful approach.

Thanks for your good attitude. I had noticed all that before. About your this post, I will reply point to point. But generally, I say that it is perfectly true. You are right in almost everything, every word. Thank you. Now goes…

It is sad for me Planten (perhaps to you too), that not all Muslims share the same thinking as yours. I do have many Muslim friends whom I trust very much. It is to me that your Quran happens to be so easily be twisted so much that other groups of Muslims can have their own interpretations.

Again true. It is applicable to all sacred books. Not only to the Quran. It also applies to bible and Torah…

Further, to the point of view of us, the non-Muslims, those interpretations at a certain level are contradictory to one another. It is also happen that there is no single authority in your religion who can be the representative of all Muslims.

It is correct. It is same as many oher religions. Do you agree that there are many sects of Christianity, the Catholics, the Protestants, the JW’s and Methodists and non church go –ists. I see that that you are right in what you said.

Logically, Planten, you may claim that the only representative of Islam is Muhammad, himself. I can understand that, but at this point, Muhammad is no longer with us, correct? Since there is no single representative of Islam, and many Islamic groups have different interpretations

My reply is same as above. You are right. It is causing lot of confusion. But the real book (Quran) is with us now unchanged. It is possible to discuss and reach the truth. Otherwise you are right all along… I agree with you.

, that sure looks like chaos to us, as the outsider. Do you see my point? That condition can be interpreted, also logically, that Islam is some sort of “leaderless people” (perhaps I need to say sorry for this word).

** That is correct. We can say that the Muslims do not have a leader, or a single leader. Also we can say that they have many leaders all differing with each other on many issues. That is bad enough. That is a dis-array. There is no need to be sorry. It is true that they are without a leader.**

Consequently, history also said that “leaderless people” tends to be a “disturbance” to the surrounding civilization (although actually it is not necessarily be that way).

That is also true. The leaderless people are a some danger. But they are more danger to themselves. So you need not worry too much. The people following the false teachings will be destroyed automatically, gradually. That is the law of nature, i.e. survival of the fittest ( It is supported by the Quran ).

To my regret, that many people (in my view) tend to see Islam as some sort of threat to others. Where is the root? Again, logically they will tend to look for the earliest source, which is the Quran and Muhammad himself. As the result, they go against both the Quran and Muhammad. The problem for Muslims, the issue of Quran and Muhammad is “non-negotiable” or “untouchable”. The result is, we have a circular problem that is endless.

**You have gradually brought it down to a book and the prophet of peace (Muhammad). Please do not put the blame of the bad people onto a man of God. Likewise, I will also never try to throw your bad beliefs and bad deeds on to Jesus or the bible.

I have written before that Muhammad never allowed the killing of any innocent person. That is final. But if you say that the culprits should also be set free (scott free, and may even be kissed and given presents) as per teachings of your religion, then I would say that your religion is un-natural. It does not conform to nature.

I have agreed to most of what you said in your post because it was true. But please try to sense the good message in Quran. Do not blme Quran for the bad doings of its readers. Also, do not support those silly readers of the Quran. In that case you will be as bad as all of them.**