Anyone who willfully and deliberately sins doesn't know God, just ask Ananias!

[Sherlock]

Giver:

. Anyone who knows wouldn’t sin.
Giver

So, can I assume that you think you know God? In which case, I assume you don’t commit any sins? I wonder if we were to ask your family and co-workers if they would agree.

I have an acquaintance that used to believe the very same thing. Very adamant about it, he was. He spoke just like you do, and was entirely sincere—he really believed what he said was true. But over the years I watched as he slowly lost his fervor, ending up divorced after cheating on his wife and defrauding insurance companies.

Now, I suppose you’ll tell me that he never really knew God to begin with. However, he thought he did—just like you. Which shows that you can’t really be sure of such a thing, human understanding being limited as it is and capable of self-deception.

 

[Giver]

## The problem with the assertion in the heading, is that it makes membership of Christ impossible; because no one can guarantee that he will not sin - to expect that, is to deny that we are reliant on the grace of God.

I think you are confusing perfectionism with freedom from grave sin. ##

I am not confusing anything. If a person has been given the Holy Spirit and knows God that person will not sin. Please understand they won’t commit a willful, deliberate, serous sin.

Galatians 5:16
“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence…”.

 

[Pax]

Giver:

The people who translated the Bible should have consulted you first right? You would have told them how it should have been done.

I gave you a well reasoned response on the meaning of the scriptures that we were discussing. This is your well reasoned and charitable response?

Please explain to me how we are now getting on the issue of “translations” of scripture. I do not speak the original languages and I am not capable of consulting with anyone about translating scripture and I have never hinted that I could. I depend solely on English translations because that is all I can read.

 

[Pax]

Giver:

I am not confusing anything. If a person has been given the Holy Spirit and knows God that person will not sin. Please understand they won’t commit a willful, deliberate, serous sin.

Galatians 5:16
“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence…”.

And what happens if we follow our selfish interests and do not happen to follow the Holy Spirit on a given occassion?

 

[Giver]

Daniel Marsh:

Romans 6**
19I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves**. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 12
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual[a] act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 5:25
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

James 3:2
We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check.

Romans 11:11
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

Paul was speaking of the Jews and they never knew God the way a Christian can know God, through the Spirit of God. I think you know that and were just trying to confuse people.

 

[Pax]

Robert,

I’m still waiting for a careful and thoughtful view of James 4:1-10.
You need to show me why I am wrong about this passage.

 

[Giver]

Eireann:

Giver when are you going to answer this question ???

Title of thread, as we do seem to have drifted. " **Anyone who willfully and deliberately sins doesn’t know God, just ask Ananias! **

And your title does point to mortal sin, up above you all but admitted mortal and venial sins.

Jesus came here to take away man’s sins, not the angels’ sins. God became man, not an angel. The apostles were telling us about man’s sins.

Everyone should take a lesson from what happened to Satan. He sinned and is now in Hell, forever. Now maybe you don’t think that is death, but for me that is the worse kind of death.

 

[Pax]

Giver:

I see James as supporting what I have been saying all along. He is telling sinners to get close to God. I hope you don’t think he was talking to people who knew God. Anyone who knows wouldn’t sin.
Giver

It is obvious that James is talking to people that knew God. He uses the term “brethren” nine times before he gets to Chapter 4 verses 1-10. He is talking to Christians. Brethren is the term used by the apostles in addressing believers. He even says in James 2:1"MY BRETHREN, show no partiality as you hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory.

You have absolutely no scriptural evidence that suggests that James is speaking to people that don’t know God. You are making this up.

 

[Pax]

Giver:

Jesus came here to take away man’s sins, not the angels’ sins. God became man, not an angel. The apostles were telling us about man’s sins.

Everyone should take a lesson from what happened to Satan. He sinned and is now in Hell, forever. Now maybe you don’t think that is death, but for me that is the worse kind of death.

I agree with this but you didn’t answer the posters point.

 

[Pax]

Giver:

Paul was speaking of the Jews and they never knew God the way a Christian can know God, through the Spirit of God. I think you know that and were just trying to confuse people.

Only the last verse quoted by Daniel Marsh could be construed to meet your criticism, but none of the others. The last verse, however, does not apply simply to the Jews. They are used as an example to us.

 

[Giver]

Sherlock:

So, can I assume that you think you know God? In which case, I assume you don’t commit any sins? I wonder if we were to ask your family and co-workers if they would agree.

I have an acquaintance that used to believe the very same thing. Very adamant about it, he was. He spoke just like you do, and was entirely sincere—he really believed what he said was true. But over the years I watched as he slowly lost his fervor, ending up divorced after cheating on his wife and defrauding insurance companies.

Now, I suppose you’ll tell me that he never really knew God to begin with. However, he thought he did—just like you. Which shows that you can’t really be sure of such a thing, human understanding being limited as it is and capable of self-deception.

So you know one person who has agreed with me and he failed and from that you can paint everyone black?

 

[Sherlock]

Giver:

So you know one person who has agreed with me and he failed and from that you can paint everyone black?

What??

You’ve totally ignored the point I was making. One or one million examples, it doesn’t matter: one is enough to show the problems of your particular private interpretation. Why don’t you try addresssing the points I’m raising, instead of responding with this non-answer? It tells me that your position is weak.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Giver:

Jesus came here to take away man’s sins, not the angels’ sins. God became man, not an angel. The apostles were telling us about man’s sins.
**
Everyone should take a lesson from what happened to Satan. He sinned and is now** in Hell, forever. Now maybe you don’t think that is death, but for me that is the worse kind of death.

Ah, ever read the Book of Job?

Job 1:7
The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”

And, who tempted Jesus?

Matthew 4:10
Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’ "

Mark 1:13
and he was in the desert forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him.

And,

Luke 13:16
Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?"

And,

Luke 22:3
Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve.

And, your own proof text

Acts 5:3
Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?
**
It seems to me, since you keep making statements that are contradicted by scripture, you are NOT listening to the real Holy Spirit.
**

 

[Giver]

Daniel Marsh:

Ah, ever read the Book of Job?

Job 1:7
The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”

And, who tempted Jesus?

Matthew 4:10
Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’ "

Mark 1:13
and he was in the desert forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him.

And,

Luke 13:16
Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?"

And,

Luke 22:3
Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve.

And, your own proof text

Acts 5:3
Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?
**
It seems to me, since you keep making statements that are contradicted by scripture, you are NOT listening to the real Holy Spirit.
**

Satan was cast out of Heaven, isn’t that death? A spirit lives forever, but living in Hell has to be worse than not living.

 

[Giver]

Pax:

It is obvious that James is talking to people that knew God. He uses the term “brethren” nine times before he gets to Chapter 4 verses 1-10. He is talking to Christians. Brethren is the term used by the apostles in addressing believers. He even says in James 2:1"MY BRETHREN, show no partiality as you hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory.

You have absolutely no scriptural evidence that suggests that James is speaking to people that don’t know God. You are making this up.

Pax, The Scriptural evidence that James was not talking to people who knew God:
(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

Now it is your turn.

 

[Eireann]

Giver:

I am not confusing anything. If a person has been given the Holy Spirit and knows God that person will not sin. Please understand they won’t commit a willful, deliberate, serous sin.

Exactly, mortal and venial sin.

CCC 1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin

1854 *Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture, became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience. *

Mortal sin

Venial sin

 

[cheeto1]

So Giver,

Are you saying that a Christian won’t commit a mortal sin
or just any sin at all? It would be so helpful if you could give
just a few examples of sins that a Christian would never
commit or else he’d be lost.

 

[Pax]

Giver:

Pax, The Scriptural evidence that James was not talking to people who knew God:
(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

Now it is your turn.

Please show me anywhere in John’s letters where it says that James was talking to people that did not know God when he wrote his epistle or at least the passage of James 4:1-10. Since that won’t happen, please try to directly analyze and understand the passage and then present a credible case for your view.

You have done once again exactly what I complained about. You have not directly addressed the scripture set before you. Instead you simply went back to another scripture verse that you have already presented. You have again cited 1 John 3:3-9. This passage was explained to you two or three times. John is refering to “habitual sin.” This is made very clear in the original Greek because it uses the present tense of the verb. That is why bible scholars, church leaders, writers of commentaries, and everyone else disagrees with your interpretation.

 

[Tonks40]

Giver:

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law.

I am not a Scripture scholar - I can read Scripture and understand that in this verse, he is talking about how believers ought to live their lives.

Giver:

Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been **begotten **by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been **begotten **by God.”

I read, and I understand that Paul is speaking about Christ, His work on earth, and how we are to be like Him. It’s not talking about how those on earth who’ve seen him do not sin.

Simple, ain’t it??? “Begotten” = from God. Meaning Christ.

 

[Giver]

cheeto1:

So Giver,

Are you saying that a Christian won’t commit a mortal sin
or just any sin at all? It would be so helpful if you could give
just a few examples of sins that a Christian would never
commit or else he’d be lost.

We should know that Jesus is God and he became man so we could be with him forever. He told us we needed to hear his Word and live it, in order to attain that goal. Most of his Word is how to love, man and God.

People because of hurts, or whatever sometimes strikes out at others or maybe reacts to a situation is a sinful way. They may be sinning, but maybe not even knowing they sinned until someone points it out to them or maybe later as they think about it see they have sinned. I believe all we need to do, is pray about these human faults, and they will be forgiven and healed.

Now if a person knows something is wrong, thinks about doing the wrong deed, and decides that their wants are more important than God’s desires, and if that person has once been brought into the light etc.

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

The Holy Spirit gives a person who knows God the grace to say no to sin.

Galatians 5:16
“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence…”.
Giver