Anyones faith get shaken by terrible evils like the Connecticut shootings?

[Jeanne_S]

The God of Classical Theism is claimed to be perfect - and that by human judgement. Humans have declared him so. Somewhere along the line, there has been a grave disconnect, if a perfect God can allow a crazed shooter to cut off the lives of innocents, under his own supervision. Welcoming them into heaven is just bandaging the wound after it has been inflicted - a genuinely benevolent god would prevent the suffering before it happened, surely.

As for it not being God’s fault when people sin - didn’t he know before the fact that humans would sin? Isn’t he meant to be all-powerful? There’s really no excuse here. Even the free-will clause doesn’t get God out of jail free - he must be able to prevent evil without interfering with free will, since there is no logical contradiction in creating people who will tend towards choosing good…

The short version is - the argument from evil has no adequate counter. Give up trying.

Jesus Christ came to redeem all sinners,past,present and future. He suffered the ultimate evil,however,through this evil also came the greatest good.Our redemption. God is not a puppet master,pulling the strings.He respects our free will ,to either choose Him or not.God permits evil to occur only to the extent that good will come out of it. Your views re good/evil are simplistic at best.

 

[itullian]

Jesus Christ came to redeem all sinners,past,present and future. He suffered the ultimate evil,however,through this evil also came the greatest good.Our redemption. God is not a puppet master,pulling the strings.He respects our free will ,to either choose Him or not.God permits evil to occur only to the extent that good will come out of it. Your views re good/evil are simplistic at best.

he intervened in the past for good, no?

 

[bilop]

he intervened in the past for good, no?

I think you are confused. God does not think like man.

It is very possible that he is not at all concerned by our material condition, only our spiritual condition.

It the eternal scheme, physical suffering and death mean nothing if we have faith and achieve salvation.

God Bless

 

[Jeanne_S]

he intervened in the past for good, no?

Someone posted a statement a few days ago,regarding Obama’s response to this horrific tragedy.Something about these young lives being cut short,denying them opportunities to go to college,proms,get married,etc. The poster went on to say,How many tears has Obama shed for all the lives cut short through abortion? I believe this is the crux of the issue.When we no longer value life in it’s most nascent form,it then follows that we will no longer value life at any stage.Perhaps the good that will come out of this unspeakable evil is those who support abortion will pause and rethink it’s destructive consequences,Have a conversion of heart.

 

[bilop]

Someone posted a statement a few days ago,regarding Obama’s response to this horrific tragedy.Something about these young lives being cut short,denying them opportunities to go to college,proms,get married,etc. The poster went on to say,How many tears has Obama shed for all the lives cut short through abortion? I believe this is the crux of the issue.When we no longer value life in it’s most nascent form,it then follows that we will no longer value life at any stage.Perhaps the good that will come out of this unspeakable evil is those who support abortion will pause and rethink it’s destructive consequences,Have a conversion of heart.

Exactly. Probably 3000 babies were aborted last Friday alone.

God Bless

 

[fred_conty]

Jesus Christ came to redeem all sinners,past,present and future. He suffered the ultimate evil,however,through this evil also came the greatest good.Our redemption. God is not a puppet master,pulling the strings.He respects our free will ,to either choose Him or not.God permits evil to occur only to the extent that good will come out of it. Your views re good/evil are simplistic at best.

Sair,
The short and long of it is this: people either aline themselves with God, or they depart from God.

And free-will is exactly this: yeh or neh. Are we only fair wheather friends of God? Suffering is one of “them” aline/depart issues. Aline/depart means love/hate. That is the test.

Mary, the mother of Jesus, watched as her son’s hands and feet were nailed. Her heart broke. She said and meant it, “let it be done to me according to your word.” The answer to the test: faithful in hardship and suffering.

The only answer to hate is love, the one Mary gave.
It is the same one Job gave, “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, naked I shall return. The Lord gave, the Lord has taken back. Blessed be the name of the Lord!” Job 1,21

“After his trials, Job lived on until he was a hundred and forty years old, and saw his children and his children’s children up to the fourth generation. Then Job died, an old man and full of days”
Job 42, the end of the book and the end of the story, but not the end of life.

“He will wipe away all tears from their eyes; There will be no more death, and no more mourning or sadness. The world of the past has gone.” Rev 21,4

Some promises to think about for young and old.

 

[cheezey]

Sair,
The short and long of it is this: people either aline themselves with God, or they depart from God.

The only answer to hate is love, the one Mary gave.
It is the same one Job gave, “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, naked I shall return. The Lord gave, the Lord has taken back. Blessed be the name of the Lord!” Job 1,21

…Then Job died, an old man and full of days"
Job 42, the end of the book and the end of the story, but not the end of life.

“He will wipe away all tears from their eyes; There will be no more death, and no more mourning or sadness. The world of the past has gone.” Rev 21,4
~

Originally Posted by Jeanne S
Jesus Christ came to redeem all sinners,past,present and future. He suffered the ultimate evil,however,through this evil also came the greatest good.Our redemption. God is not a puppet master,pulling the strings.He respects our free will ,to either choose Him or not.God permits evil to occur only to the extent that good will come out of it. Your views re good/evil are simplistic at best.
~
God’s message is simple. We are the ones circuitously debating it to the point of confusion for some some, apathy for others, and paralysis of knowing what to think and do for still others who simply want to live God’s Message, which simple. To Love.
~
I wonder the second quote doesn’t appear as one?

 

[Viki63]

i guess im thinking that maybe a good God could have designed a system with less horror and suffering in it.

i just cant understand the suffering of the innocent, i just cant.

The suffering of the children who died lasted only a brief time. They are now with Our Lord in heaven, safe in the arms of the saints who love them.
The suffering of their parents is only beginning, they will mourn for their children all their lives. But that is because they appropriately loved them.

We don’t take care of the mentally ill, we lack the resources, the will and often the wisdom. We allow people to buy guns that are designed to kill others.
What happened is pretty much because of choices human beings have made. Since God chose to allow free will, He allows our choices, and we have to live with the results. The only way around it was to not allow free will, and create robots.

 

[SonCatcher]

i really have a hard time with a God that allows such horrible evil and suffering like that.

i know, free will and all, but , well, idk.

it does make me question things.

Yet even in such difficult times it is possible to find blessing.

Yesterday’s OT reading was from Zephaniah. The only time in the three year Sunday cycle that book is read.

My pastor focused his homily on that reading because of the recent violence. Jerusalem at the time of Zephaniah suffered through extreme violence, which the prophet addressed. Yet while they so suffered, God spoke healing through the prophet.

 

[Bill_7154]

Not a bit. If anything I see it as a message that having gun free zones is dangerous.

 

[jmcrae]

The God of Classical Theism is claimed to be perfect - and that by human judgement. Humans have declared him so. Somewhere along the line, there has been a grave disconnect, if a perfect God can allow a crazed shooter to cut off the lives of innocents, under his own supervision. Welcoming them into heaven is just bandaging the wound after it has been inflicted - a genuinely benevolent god would prevent the suffering before it happened, surely.

It was not God who broke the Creation - it was a human being - Adam.

Instead of annihilating the Creation, God chose to have mercy on Adam and Eve, and allow them to live out their lives.

But the Creation remains broken, because God has chosen not to fix it. He has chosen to allow us to live with the consequences of Adam’s sin. Perhaps He prefers to know people who have interesting stories to tell.

As for it not being God’s fault when people sin - didn’t he know before the fact that humans would sin?

And yet, created us anyway - because He loves us.

Isn’t he meant to be all-powerful? There’s really no excuse here. Even the free-will clause doesn’t get God out of jail free - he must be able to prevent evil without interfering with free will, since there is no logical contradiction in creating people who will tend towards choosing good…

"He must … " There you go again, telling God what to do.

It doesn’t actually work that way. You don’t give your boss a list of items to complete today, and nor do you tell God how to run His Universe. We have the privilege of being allowed to live in it - and it contains enough beauty and happiness to more than make up for the bad stuff.

 

[Christianus_Dei]

Perhaps He prefers to know people who have interesting stories to tell.

Sorry, but you should try not to use arguements like this sentence. It wouldn’t really work to allow evil just because it’s interesting.

However, it does work to allow evil because without the ability to choose between one or the other, either choice, for good or evil, is meaningless.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I’m from Australia so I am looking at this situation from the outside. To tell you the truth your country does not have proper gun countrol. How can a women who is a teacher have 3 guns.

In Australia all semi automatic guns are illegal and you must have a very very good reason to have a gun eg you are a farmer and you need a gun to protect your cattle. Also the gun and bullets must be stored sepertly.

Thought you might be interested to know that the President is going to make some announcement on gun policy today. Some sporting good sales have also taken certain types of guns off the shelf. Though since the incident it has been reported that sales on certain types of guns (especially the model used at the incident) has gone up from some concern that those guns will be made more difficult to acquire.

 

[PRmerger]

The short version is - the argument from evil has no adequate counter. Give up trying.

Of course it does. The answer is that God makes it up to those to whom evil is visited upon.

Rather, the atheistic worldview has no answer to the sickening evil in the world. Their answer is only:

 

[cheezey]

God doesnt give us the ability to understand or think about many things, so we are limited already right?

is this not part of the mystery? believing and knowing that something IS without knowing the HOW? know what you believe, find a reason for your faith, and live it. Not all things can be explained. I’d rather live love than try to explain what love is.

 

[hsmomforlife]

Nope, not for one second. It only makes me realize although Satan can perpetuate all sorts of evil…only God can make good come from it!

When I was in high school, there was a boy in my class who murdered his father with a shotgun because his father had been abusing his mother (and who knows who else). All of my friends/classmates wrote him off as spending the rest of his life in prison/living a *&&^%ed up life etc.
That same young man is now a successful criminal defense attorney…

By using the example above, I’m not saying anything positive about murder, the Newtown killings, etc, but just as an example of a young man who was subjected to horrific abuse that brought him to the edge and God moved him to become a servent to those who are in similar situations. Good can come of evil…because of God!

Just you wait and see what sort of good all those little Newtown Angels WILL spread around the world!!

 

[Sair]

Of course it does. The answer is that God makes it up to those to whom evil is visited upon.

A bandaid after the fact. A deity with all the qualities ascribed to the Christian God would prevent suffering before it started, or at least furnish us with some understanding of the purpose of such suffering, a comprehension of why it was necessary - if it was - beyond a lame supposition that all the children killed in this latest massacre were somehow spared from sinning in later life. As if anyone could know this.

How does God make it up? How do you know? How is it not just wishful thinking that takes away the impetus to prevent anything like this from happening again?

Rather, the atheistic worldview has no answer to the sickening evil in the world. Their answer is only:

The atheist worldview puts the answer where it belongs - with us, not with an imaginary being who never seems to come through when it counts.

 

[Sair]

It was not God who broke the Creation - it was a human being - Adam.

Whom God knew would ‘break the creation’.

Instead of annihilating the Creation, God chose to have mercy on Adam and Eve, and allow them to live out their lives.

That must have been God’s plan all-along, since he is claimed to be all-knowing - are you saying God could have acted differently?

But the Creation remains broken, because God has chosen not to fix it. He has chosen to allow us to live with the consequences of Adam’s sin. Perhaps He prefers to know people who have interesting stories to tell.

That sounds like a much more reasonable, if considerably less perfect, concept of God.

And yet, created us anyway - because He loves us.

Or at least loves a good soap opera.

"He must … " There you go again, telling God what to do.

I don’t believe God exists - how could I tell him what to do? I’m only extrapolating from the suppositions believers ascribe to their concept of God.

It doesn’t actually work that way. You don’t give your boss a list of items to complete today, and nor do you tell God how to run His Universe. We have the privilege of being allowed to live in it - and it contains enough beauty and happiness to more than make up for the bad stuff.

Awwww…well, I suppose God must be one of the good guys after all. But only if he is sufficiently fallible that he acted with the best of intentions and had them thwarted by mere humans. I do think there is a great deal of beauty and happiness to be found in the world, but my ability to perceive these things has not, thankfully, been obliterated by the kinds of horrendous suffering to which some people have been subjected, under the eye of your God, in this happy, beautiful world.

The thing is, if the universe is entirely natural, we have no reason to expect that things should go our way, no reason to assume that anything was designed for our benefit - it’s only the belief in a personal, designing, human-loving god that allows for any sense of disappointment or betrayal when things go wrong.

 

[TommyStG27]

I was shocked, saddened, but instead of a knee jerk reaction I prayed first. My faith was not shaken because God was there. He and his blessed mother were there to welcome the new souls into his kingdom and to provide comfort for those who survived. God cannot always intervene as we like on our terms, but he never forsakes us.

 

[PRmerger]

A bandaid after the fact.

This demonstrates an impoverished understanding of the beatific vision.

Perhaps this analogy would help: a screaming 5 year old who’s mad about having to get immunized throws the bandaids he’s been given at his father’s face saying, “That doesn’t take away the pain you had inflicted upon me!” but he’s totally lacking in understanding the magnificent events that are now occurring in his immune system, courtesy of those painful shots.

He just doesn’t see the magnificence.

A deity with all the qualities ascribed to the Christian God would prevent suffering before it started, or at least furnish us with some understanding of the purpose of such suffering, a comprehension of why it was necessary -

Even if the father (in the above analogy) tried to explain to the 5 year old why he needs shots, his explanations would not satisfy the 5 year old. Because his little 5 year old mind cannot grasp the intricacies of the wondrous world of immunology.

So no matter what the father tries to tell the 5 yr old, the 5 yr old is going to respond with, “I don’t care! Stop holding me down and letting them stick me with 4 needles!”

if it was - beyond a lame supposition that all the children killed in this latest massacre were somehow spared from sinning in later life. As if anyone could know this.

Yes, that is a lame supposition.

How does God make it up? How do you know? How is it not just wishful thinking that takes away the impetus to prevent anything like this from happening again?

By giving them eternal glory.

I know this because that is God’s revelation.

The atheist worldview puts the answer where it belongs - with us, not with an imaginary being who never seems to come through when it counts.

And the atheist answer to this is…? Stuff happens? Really? That’s the answer that you think is immeasurably better than the Christian answer?