AOC: A Society With Billionaires Cannot Be Moral

[RCIAGraduate]

There’s probably more to what she said (but I’m not going to look it up). That said, perhaps she has a very valid point; how can a society be just if it exhibits opulent wealth while its needy go without. For example, America as a country may have a lot of wealthy as well as a relatively large upper class (the rich and elite along with an upper middle class) but rhetorically, how can one argue it is just while the country has a poor social infrastructure, one example being underfunded or poorly functioning social and human services like our foster care/child and family services systems as well as others like struggling public schools, poor access to mental health and substance abuse treatment or a struggling if not fragile working class (living paycheck to paycheck, assailed by living costs and only one crisis away from financial/economic catastrophe)?

 

[OneSheep]

Yes, and if we read between the lines, every modern pope has said the same thing.

Also, another important person said this:

The Rich Man and Lazarus​

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

So, the next time a person here on CAF is inclined to promote the morality of having great wealth, maybe it would be a good time to check with Jesus about that.

 

[JonNC]

There’s probably more to what she said (but I’m not going to look it up). That said, perhaps she has a very valid point; how can a society be just if it exhibits opulent wealth while its needy go without.

This country’s general government has spent the effective equivalent of the national budget debt since the start of the Great Society programs of the 1960’s. If there are needy going without, it is not because of “opulent wealth”. Clearly, the injustice is the failure of government, regardless of significant resources provided mainly by the wealthy, to fill those needs.
Considering said failure, AOC proposes to place even greater resources in the hands of the entity most responsible for that failure.
That is injustice!

 

[JonNC]

So, the next time a person here on CAF is inclined to promote the morality of having great wealth, maybe it would be a good time to check with Jesus about that.

Whether or not the mere ownership of wealth is moral is not the question. It is what we do with the wealth.
As I stated above, this country has spent trillions of dollars on social safety nets. No one I’ve heard argues against helping the poor. There is disagreement in how best to do so.
The next time someone promotes confiscation of the property of others needs to provide where Christ says that is moral.

 

[OneSheep]

This country’s general government has spent the effective equivalent of the national budget debt since the start of the Great Society programs of the 1960’s. If there are needy going without, it is not because of “opulent wealth”. Clearly, the injustice is the failure of government, regardless of significant resources provided mainly by the wealthy, to fill those needs.
Considering said failure, AOC proposes to place even greater resources in the hands of the entity most responsible for that failure.
That is injustice!

First, the vast majority of our nation’s federal taxes have gone one place, the military and associated offensive efforts. This is not justice.

Secondly, the government is ridiculously incompetent when it comes to saving money. The government is in debt to its gills and beyond, it is grossly poor.

Jesus did not say that taxes were wrong, he told us to pay what was due Ceasar, and that was when the government was doing practically nothing to help the poor.

Look, AOC is going overboard and being unrealistic about the tax proposals, but what we can see is that the concentration of wealth in this world, at the expense of those suffering poverty, is unjust. And you won’t find a single modern pope disagreeing with that.

And to be frank, I struggle with this every day. How much wealth should I give away? It is part of my daily prayer. I am thankful that at least part of my taxes goes toward helping those in need.

Do you find yourself thinking that Ayn Rand represents Jesus, the church, the Holy Spirit?

 

[empacae]

Do you find yourself thinking that Ayn Rand represents Jesus, the church, the Holy Spirit?

No, but pretty sure Jesus was a capitalist. He did manage Joseph’s carpentry some years prior to the start of his ministry. Pretty sure he didn’t craft all his wares for the benefit of the state.

 

[RCIAGraduate]

The next time someone promotes confiscation of the property of others needs to provide where Christ says that is moral.

Perhaps from their interpretation, they don’t necessarily see it as “confiscation” but society making a collective and democratic choice to pool their resources into public goods? Okay, I could see where the coercive part comes in but rather perhaps it’s the people who are trying to make a societal decision?

Additionally, there is concern that private charity will not have the capacity/capability or ability to reach those in need and thus the greater evil would be letting the needy go without over taking a portion of the taxpayer’s earnings (especially since let’s like many taxpayers are willing to part with their earnings but I can also see where this argument falls since they are also decided with other people’s funds).

 

[JimG]

Look, AOC is going overboard and being unrealistic about the tax proposals, but what we can see is that the concentration of wealth in this world, at the expense of those suffering poverty, is unjust

It’s not at all clear that the concentration of wealth is at the expense of those in poverty. When a company like Apple succeeds in selling a lot of I-phones and becomes very profitable, does that create more poverty, or does it create more jobs?

 

[OneSheep]

It’s not at all clear that the concentration of wealth is at the expense of those in poverty. When a company like Apple succeeds in selling a lot of I-phones and becomes very profitable, does that create more poverty, or does it create more jobs?

The part about making more I-phones creates more jobs. The part about wealth accumulation creates more poverty.

The richest 1% of people in the world own over half of the world’s wealth. This is run-away capitalism.

 

[OneSheep]

He did manage Joseph’s carpentry some years prior to the start of his ministry. Pretty sure he didn’t craft all his wares for the benefit of the state.

I’m certain He crafted His wares for the benefit of His own well being and society as a whole, all the people around Him. Pope Francis and others have no argument against this; work is a matter of human dignity, and we are to be justly compensated.

 

[qui_est_ce]

You are assuming wealth is a limited pie. It is not. One’s wealth does not take away from another’a (unless you are under socialism).

https://www.forbes.com/sites/objectivist/2011/06/14/when-it-comes-to-wealth-creation-there-is-no-pie/#4caa1b1e7a2c

 

[OneSheep]

Ask the poor whether wealth is limited, friend.

Do you find yourself valuing something from Forbes as more pertinent than that which comes from the Holy Father? From the Bishops?

Sure, when a poor man builds a house, he is creating something that has more value from natural resources.

What is limited are the resources, both physical and monetary. Only huge corporations and banks can borrow money for nothing.

 

[empacae]

Being poor is not static. Nor is being wealthy. And I feel no resentment that a CEO makes gazillion potatoes while the retail checkout person within the Corp makes 13.75/hr.

 

[JimG]

Well, John Bogle, who recently died, (see obit here), was a pretty good capitalist, being the founder of the Vanguard mutual fund group. He regularly gave half his income to charity. “My only regret about money,” he said in 2012, “is that I don’t have more to give away.” So maybe more capitalists should follow his lead.

 

[qui_est_ce]

What is limited are the resources, both physical and monetary. Only huge corporations and banks can borrow money for nothing.

If that were true, then we’d still be living like people in the Middle Ages.

 

[OneSheep]

If that were true, then we’d still be living like people in the Middle Ages.

Not sure what you are referring to. Did I say something that wasn’t true?

 

[qui_est_ce]

Ask the poor whether wealth is limited, friend.

Do you find yourself valuing something from Forbes as more pertinent than that which comes from the Holy Father? From the Bishops?

What is limited are the resources, both physical and monetary.

You don’t know me or what I do for the poor. Stop judging me. The article from Forbes was an explanation of how wealth works. It has nothing to do about my caring for the poor.

Only huge corporations and banks can borrow money for nothing.

??

 

[Regular_Atheist]

No, but pretty sure Jesus was a capitalist. He did manage Joseph’s carpentry some years prior to the start of his ministry. Pretty sure he didn’t craft all his wares for the benefit of the state.

I’m pretty sure Jesus lived before “capitalists” and capitalism could really be said to exist.

Pretty sure he didn’t craft all his wares for the benefit of the state.

This seems like an odd thing to say, because lots of capitalists in our society do produce things directly for the state. If a company gets a contract with the state, does it ceases to be capitalist? Does the owner of Ford stop being a capitalist if he’s tasked with producing police cars?

Defining socialism as “state controlled production” is obviously problematic, because capital is so heavily bound up with the state. The state is a capitalist phenomenon, not a communist one.

 

[Ridgerunner]

the country has a poor social infrastructure, one example being underfunded or poorly functioning social and human services like our foster care/child and family services systems as well as others like struggling public schools, poor access to mental health and substance abuse treatment or a struggling if not fragile working class (living paycheck to paycheck, assailed by living costs and only one crisis away from financial/economic catastrophe)?

I really don’t know where this applies. It certainly doesn’t around here. The one exception being the fact that most people live from paycheck to paycheck. But that’s true of high earners as well as low earners. There is no correlation between income and wealth.

 

[RCIAGraduate]

The one exception being the fact that most people live from paycheck to paycheck. But that’s true of high earners as well as low earners. There is no correlation between income and wealth.

In respect to that, my focus is referring to those who are in a situation where saving is virtually impossible (low/mediocre/stagnant pay (as well as opportunities for job mobility also being poor as well like stuck in the rat race or in a dead end job) and high living costs); for example, those with pay that has difficulties meeting living costs like housing. I understand some can move but not everyone can (or could they, would there be a point where jobs may actually follow folks)? That said, it seems like some population centers like the cities and metropolitan New York, San Diego and Los Angeles are rather expensive. I may be biased due to personal experience though.