Ap. Viganò: Christ the King has been ‘dethroned’ not only ‘from society but also from the Church’

[stpurl]

And exactly what do you know of what Joseph of Arimathea actually did in his life? How do you know what his ‘function’ was? Why do you assume it was limited to his offering a tomb to Christ? Don’t you think it is remotely possible that his wealth was instrumental in helping the early church, not just in a one time ‘sell everything and give to the poor’ but over a lifetime of working hard, generating wealth, and using that wealth wisely to help the poor by donation, to help the poor by providing long term jobs, to help all people by providing good example, trade knowledge, opportunities for those who worked for him to develop their OWN services and wealth and thus continue to ‘spread things out’ etc.

Honestly, as I have mentioned, the whole, “Jesus is ONLY a poor man and the gospel is ONLY to be as ‘poor’ as possible by offering gimcrack worship, supposedly ‘sell everything’ (not that anybody here, including Pope Francis, has done this), and only offer MATERIAL GOODS to the poor. . . Is a gross distortion of the gospel.

Do you really think that thousands and thousands of those early Christians who supposedly lived that ‘perfect life’ you think PF is ‘bringing back’ suffered torture and death because hey, everybody in the world needs to give up everything and then just sit back and urge ‘help the poor’?

No, they suffered torture and death to spread the Good News of the God who offered them forgiveness of their sins, who told them to love one another, while not demanding some kind of false egalitarian communism of “nobody better own nuthin so that we all be living at subsistence level because material ‘life on earth’ is the be-all and end-all, but rather, to know that God is Love whether one is rich or poor, male or female, ‘chosen one’ or ‘outcaste’, and to do the best one can with what one has, and to offer that ‘best’ to God.

 

[OneSheep]

Don’t you think it is remotely possible that his wealth was instrumental in helping the early church…

Yes, that may have been his calling, and his acts. We don’t know. What we do know is that early Christian communities shared their wealth, that not all of it was donated to the poor. The main theme was that people not be attached to their wealth.

After all, the kingdom, the power, and the glory all belong to God.

Jesus is ONLY a poor man and the gospel is ONLY to be as ‘poor’ as possible…a distortion of the gospel.

This is an important point, I don’t think anyone is arguing against you here, though.

Do you really think that thousands and thousands of those early Christians who supposedly lived that ‘perfect life’ you think PF is ‘bringing back’ suffered torture and death because hey, everybody in the world needs to give up everything and then just sit back and urge ‘help the poor’?

Because you began with “Do you really think that…”, then I think the above counts as a “loaded question”. Frankly, I have no idea who you are asking the question, since I said nothing of the sort. A little note about charity: on the CAF, if you want to know what someone thinks, it is better to ask a question than to assume. And while you are at it, please ask in a way that doesn’t sound like an accusation.

Now, bringing it back to the thread, do you see that when our Church leadership chooses to avoid showing symbols of wealth, that it gives witness to not being attached to material things? That such leadership, when meeting the poor, does not give such poor a feeling of want or unfairness?

It is human to want what someone else has, it is a compulsion triggered by seeing wealth in the hands of someone else. So consider this: who has the authority to suggest to people that obsession of such want is a trapping, a slavery to our nature? Would it be someone who exhibits wealth, or would it be someone who chooses not to be caught up in the wealth race and has a more humble approach?

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Did Zaccheus (you remember him from the Bible, right?) sell ‘all his goods and give to the poor?” Um wait, “Behold Lord I gave HALF my wealth to the poor and restitution to any I may have defrauded

That’s in effect giving all.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Was Joseph of Arimathea required to ‘sell everything he had and give to the poor?” Well no. He certainly owned a new tomb, right?

He in effect did. Becuase I’m pretty sure him being a member of the Sanhedrin made him lose influence.

Joseph and Zacchaeus gave everything for the Lord. It’s surprising how you think this is impractical.

 

[StudentMI]

There is no one answer to your question.

Actually there is.

 

[Motherwit]

I believe you are incorrect. Do you honestly think that that beautiful churches, vestments, stained glass etc are meant to evoke ‘temporal power”?

They weren’t meant to evoke ‘temporal power’ but nevertheless that was the distortion that occurred. In Pope St John Paul II’s inauguration address he explained the purpose of not resorting to these practices in our time is to regain a sense of the humility of Christ as a Servant to His people.

4. In past centuries, when the Successor of Peter took possession of his See, the triregnum or tiara was placed on his head. The last Pope to be crowned was Paul VI in 1963, but after the solemn coronation ceremony he never used the tiara again and left his Successors free to decide in this regard.

Pope John Paul I, whose memory is so vivid in our hearts, did not wish to have the tiara; nor does his Successor wish it today. This is not the time to return to a ceremony and an object considered, wrongly, to be a symbol of the temporal power of the Popes.

Our time calls us, urges us, obliges us to gaze on the Lord and immerse ourselves in humble and devout meditation on the mystery of the supreme power of Christ himself.

He who was born of the Virgin Mary, the carpenter’s Son (as he was thought to be), the Son of the living God (confessed by Peter), came to make us all “a kingdom of priests”.

http://www.vatican.va/content/john-...hf_jp-ii_hom_19781022_inizio-pontificato.html

That speech gives a good insight into the direction of the Church in our time.

 

[stpurl]

In your opinion.

 

[Feanor2]

Nice simple or tastefully decorated vestments are one thing but there are (were) certain trappings of the Church that were not theological in nature but reflected distinctions in social class in the middle ages and renaissance.

The coronation of the pope comes to mind- especially with the peacock feathers and the sedia gestatoria. The tree tired tiara also symbolize the temporal authority of the Pope- which related to his office as a monarch.

Another example is the cappa magna.

These symbols are really too much and IMO have no place in the Church now.

I think the gloves on bishops is a bit much but I realize they are part of the EF rubrics.

 

[stpurl]

In your opinion.

As G K Chesterton once noted but which people apparently today are forgetting, the Church keeps us from being slaves not only of the past, but also of the present.

A lot of people ages 8 to 80 only know a minimalist 1960s faux antiquarian ‘poor simple plain’ attitude. Were we to abide by the “oh such and such was a good symbol once but has no place today’, a good case could be made for the permanent abolition of tie dye, felt banners, guitars, ugly woodcuts, and a very 1960ish ‘look, sound, and feel’ that has permeated the liturgy, devotions, etc.

All the people who want to deep six the Cappa magna for example and who roll their eyes at ‘too ornate’ stuff would probably scream bloody blue murder if ‘their church’ was told that the above tie down, Woolworth cups, and banners were ‘distortions and distinctions in social class in the mid to late 20th century.

Because those things are really too much and have no place in the Church now.

 

[Motherwit]

The only thing that is absolutely permanent is Jesus instruction for receiving His Body and Blood in the Eucharist. “Do this in memory of Me”. Being overly attached to anything else is to take away from that. I’ve personally done a lot of travel and attended lots of different cultural Masses but what always matters is that miraculous moment when the bread and wine become the Body of Blood of Christ on the altar.