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Melchior
Guest
Darwin’s Black Box is better than both.
Have you read Coulters, btw? She makes some good points.
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Have you read Coulters, btw? She makes some good points.
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Courtneyjo
Guest
Coulter doesn’t claim to be a scientist, but she does quote scientists, both pro-Darwin and anti-Darwin. I think that the OP has good reason to be concerned about her child and his teacher’s influence on him. Is Darwin’s Theory of Evolution being presented as theory or fact? Are any other theories presented? Are the pros and cons discussed? The OP is concerned for her child, and I would be too.
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Orogeny
Guest
The only lie is that it is not seen in the fossil record. Unless we have the remains of every single animal that ever lived, there will be gaps.
As far as arrogance goes, have you studied physical anthropology? If so, how many years of experience do you have? Regarding fossils in general, what paleontological background do you have? How many years of experience does that include?
If it turns out, as I suspect, that you aren’t trained either as a paleontologist or as a physical anthropologist, your accusations are slanderous. If you are trained in one or both of those fields, put forth your evidence and make your case based on your evidence.
Peace
Tim
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Orogeny
Guest
Except that Miller destroys Behe’s argument from “Darwin’s Black Box” in “Finding Darwin’s God”.
I have not read her book, but I saw her on TV making her point. That’s enough for me to see that she either doesn’t understand the science or has chosen to ignore it for her personal political reasons.
Peace
Tim
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Orogeny
Guest
Relying on quotes to make a case is what you do when you have an agenda. Miller doesn’t rely on quotes. He explains the science in layman’s terms (he probably wrote the book the OP’s son will use in highschool biology) and he takes on athiests for their use of science to further their cause.
I hope other theories are being taught. The germ theory (the idea that germs cause disease) is a pretty good one. As far as competing theories of evolution, well, there aren’t any competing scientific theories right now to present.
Regarding pros and cons, would you want the pros and cons of germ theory taught. That is a serious question. There is a group of scientists that don’t believe that germs cause disease. If you don’t believe me, Google it.
Peace
Tim
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Orogeny
Guest
Believe it or not, I am smart enough to think for myself. Thanks for the benefit of the doubt, though.
Peace
Tim
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pumpkinbeast
Guest
Evolution has some factual base, and is fairly reasonable, but still has some gaps I would like to see covered before I fully accept it.
However: even if evolution is proved beyond a shadow of a doubt, that NEVER means we should throw our belief that God created the universe and life out the window. Let’s pretend the theory of evolution is true: God had to have started life with the little single celled beings. Life begets life. Spontanious generation has been disproven, obviously. God would have then probably guided the many changes needed to bring about the various beings we see today. At some point, he would have chosen a near-human in physiology type of ape, brought it to the garden of Eden, and given it a soul. From the dust of the earth, He created man. He would have done the same for a female, creating woman. So, it’s not heretical to believe in evolution, as long as you keep in mind, no matter what, God was the orcestrator behind it all.
However: even if evolution is proved beyond a shadow of a doubt, that NEVER means we should throw our belief that God created the universe and life out the window. Let’s pretend the theory of evolution is true: God had to have started life with the little single celled beings. Life begets life. Spontanious generation has been disproven, obviously. God would have then probably guided the many changes needed to bring about the various beings we see today. At some point, he would have chosen a near-human in physiology type of ape, brought it to the garden of Eden, and given it a soul. From the dust of the earth, He created man. He would have done the same for a female, creating woman. So, it’s not heretical to believe in evolution, as long as you keep in mind, no matter what, God was the orcestrator behind it all.
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Courtneyjo
Guest
The OP is a parent who is concerned about her child’s soul and the effect that the teaching of Evolution is having on her child. She is THE expert on her child.
One doesn’t have to be a trained scientist to make an argument aginst Evolution. The students have been told of all the DNA that they share with the apes, but one wonders if they’ve been told of all the DNA that they share with other living things (including plants). Are they being taught HOW to think? They are certainly being taught WHAT to think. Have they been allowed to learn and discuss the arguments that do not support the Theory of Evolution?
The child is undergoing a spiritual crisis which Darwinism only encourages. Please let us keep the OP’s child in our prayers.
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love4mary
Guest
Thank You all for keeping my son in your prayers, it means alot to this very worried mom.
Its not the teaching of evolution in and of itself that causes my frustrations and worries, its that it is taught with such strong conviction by his favorite teacher as being the Origin of how we as humans got here. I know that faith in God cannot be taught in public schools, but I do wish that teachers would FIRST explain to the students that this is only one possible explanation and is NOT proven by any scientific data.
“Based on the fact that humans and apes are so alike in DNA, its easier for me to believe that we evolved from them instead of being created by God”. This is what my son said to me,and THIS is why I am worried.
Its not the teaching of evolution in and of itself that causes my frustrations and worries, its that it is taught with such strong conviction by his favorite teacher as being the Origin of how we as humans got here. I know that faith in God cannot be taught in public schools, but I do wish that teachers would FIRST explain to the students that this is only one possible explanation and is NOT proven by any scientific data.
“Based on the fact that humans and apes are so alike in DNA, its easier for me to believe that we evolved from them instead of being created by God”. This is what my son said to me,and THIS is why I am worried.
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Orogeny
Guest
I don’t disagree with that. I was responding to a person who made a false statement about the fossil record.
If the discussion of a common ancestor of ALL living things were discussed, would you feel better about the lesson?
Please tell us the scientific evidence that does not support the theory of evolution. As a scientist, I am always interested in evidence, especially if it is as earth-shaking as evidence against the current theory of evolution.
Well, I see this as a great opportunity for the OP to teach her son what our faith actually says about evolution and God. I understand the angst this is causing the OP and my prayers are with her.
Peace
Tim
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Orogeny
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I understand and I don’t minimize the worry you are experiencing.
I don’t have any doubt that God is the author of all things, life included, and yet I love science. For some people, that is an impossible postion to take. I have never understood why one must choose one or the other.
I think this is a good time to explain to your son that God is the driving force behind DNA and that one can easily belive in God and accept science at the same time.
Peace
Tim
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Courtneyjo
Guest
Why not call the teacher to ask if this is what was taught? Perhaps it was that apes and Man may have had a common ancestor, not that Man is directly descended from apes. It would give the teacher the opportunity to clarify with his other students who also may have misunderstood.This post is more of a “Frustration Vent” then anything, but my son came home from school yesterday CONVINCED that man started out as an ape.
My son is new to the Christian Faith having been raised in an Atheist home, so he is shakey at best when it comes to the “invisible”. He told me he would believe in God ONLY if he could see Him with his own eyes. But because we “share” so many DNA traits with primates, it makes logical sense to him that we evolved from them.mad: thank you schools for teaching human evolution).
Yes, I know that when a child is 13 they doubt many things and are searching for their place in the world,but this has upset me and left me frustrated and not just a little angry at the public school system.
Have you looked in your son’s textbook to see what is written there?
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maria29
Guest
**I remember studying this in one of our theology courses so I looked it up to be sure and yes Pope John Paul,II did say in 1996 that Charles Darwin’s theories on evolution were sound as long as they took into account that creation was the work of God and that Darwin’s theory of evolution was “more than a hypothesis.”
So maybe you can explain it to your son that way. I agree with previous posters that science should never be at odds and can actually be reconciled by our study of catholicsim**.
So maybe you can explain it to your son that way. I agree with previous posters that science should never be at odds and can actually be reconciled by our study of catholicsim**.
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Courtneyjo
Guest
Unfortunately, evolution as taught to the boy, or at the very least as understood by him, is causing him to doubt his very fragile Christian faith. As I understand it, evolution as taught in public schools is not God-centered.
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Em_in_FL
Guest
Does your son attend any faith formation classes at your parish? (CCD, PREP, etc???)…
This is where these topics should be addressed… at faith formation and at home.
Science classes, in public schools, do not need to address anything except science…
When there are holes in the knowledge (ie PROOF about our “origins”) that’s where you, as a parent, and the church, as our guide in faith, come in to fill in the holes…
BTW… there IS scientific evidence that all human beings decended from ONE mother (Eve… research the “mitchondrial dna” studies online!)…
Science isn’t all bad… sometimes it can be PROOF for what we believe! Educate yourself, and you can guide your son to the truth.
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Jennifer_J
Guest
You need to sit down and have a talk with him about why he would think that sharing DNA would preclude God’s involvement in our creation. He needs some Sacred balance to what the science teacher is teaching in a secular school–and that’s your job. It can be a hard subject to get your mind around fully but your son sounds like he would be able to do it. Religion and science aren’t mutually exclusive, but do serve to explain different things–personally I wouldn’t want a science teacher trying to explain God to my children. I’m sure you’ll be able to have a wonderful conversation with him about this topic.
God bless,
Jennifer
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BLB_Oregon
Guest
If you will read up on what John Paul II and Benedict XVI have said on the subject, though, you will be relieved of the notions that a) evolution is atheistic per se, or that it gives an excuse for denying the reality of the spiritual realm in humans and b) that science curricula should include possible theological objections to current scientific thought, rather than clarifications concerning what theological ramifications a scientific theory might have.
Jesus ascended to heaven in front of his disciples. Which of us is running to the physicists and insisting that gravity is “just a theory”? Does knowing how the reproductive organs work make a person less likely to believe in the reality of the Incarnation? It could, but that would be no reason not to honestly teach what we know about human biology.
Investigating the origins of life, like investigating the physical origins of human behavior, is an inquiry whose answers people are going to try to twist to suit their own ideological ends. These are also difficult areas of study, due to the difficulty in obtaining the amount of data one would like to have. Nevertheless, these areas should be open to investigation and current explanations of known data should still be taught.
If it served no purpose for a theological agenda, there is no reason that intelligent design would be put forward as an explanation of the currently-known data. That hypothesis does not meet the criteria for being regarded as an established theory. That is why it should not be presented in a K-12 classroom on an equal footing with the current theories of evolution.
I would note, though, that teachers who inject their opinions concerning the social or theological ramifications of scientific inquiries should be taken to task. That is not science, either, and such blithe conjectures did no small amount of damage in during the last century.
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Courtneyjo
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I have no such “notions” that I need relief from, thanks.I do not think that evolution is atheistic per se, but that it is used or interpreted by prominent scientists (whose names you will see in the secular press) as an excuse to suppport their atheism and recruit others to it. Of course this is contrary to our Holy Fathers’ teaching. And since they use evolution to support their atheism, they have an interest in it being taught in public schools with no discussion of the weaknesses of the theory.
Before the moderators decide to move this thread, I’ll end my part in the discussion.
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leonie
Guest
It’s actually a very good sign that your son is thinking these things through. It’s part of an adult faith that reasons and examines and comes to conclusions instead of merely accepting.
There’s a very good book called Making Senses out of Scripture by Mark Shea that explains how the Bible teaches in different ways to transmit truth.
Instead of going at all the science, I think your son would be better served learning how to read the Bible.
Here’s an article from This Rock
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0405bt.asp
There’s a very good book called Making Senses out of Scripture by Mark Shea that explains how the Bible teaches in different ways to transmit truth.
Instead of going at all the science, I think your son would be better served learning how to read the Bible.
Here’s an article from This Rock
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0405bt.asp
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Wolseley
Guest
Just throwing these in here for your reading pleasure in your spare time.
lewrockwell.com/reed/reed59.html
lewrockwell.com/reed/reed27.html
lewrockwell.com/reed/reed80.html
lewrockwell.com/reed/reed59.html
lewrockwell.com/reed/reed27.html
lewrockwell.com/reed/reed80.html
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