E
elt1956
Guest
Think I read that during one of her appearances at Medjugorje she told one of the visionaries she had a special love of the Catholic Church because of it’s devotion to her. You might want to check that out.
Peace.
- Status
Peace.
E
elt1956
Guest
Sometimes the belief in these apparitions of Mary result not in physical changes, but in changes of the heart and soul.
Peace.
E
elt1956
Guest
Don’t the Muslims believe the Angel Gabriel appeared to Muhammud and gave him the contents of the Quran?
Peace.
E
elt1956
Guest
Hello RighteousOne. Where did you read this. I have read a couple of books about Medjugorgje, but haven’t read any definite predictions. Thanks.
E
elt1956
Guest
Hello RighteousOne. Where did you read this? I have read a couple of books about Medjugorgje, but haven’t read any definite predictions. Thanks.
G
Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
**Put it this way - if the Mother of God really appears to anyone, why does she never appear to anybody with well-developed critical skills ? As it is, only those with a strong bias to accepting such things - whether because they are Catholic, or ill-educated, or poorly catechised, or something of the kind - ever see such things. When she appears to a professor of philosophy, these apparitions will deserve to be taken seriously - but not before. A supposed apparition to poorly-instructed peasant children is no evidence whatever of the alleged apparition’s genuineness. **
That’s what makes the alleged apparition to Alphonse Ratisbonne plausible: as a Jew with a dislike for Christianity, he had no pre-conceived bias in favour of it; so his conversion is all the more striking, & his assertion that he saw the MoG is the more credible. Unfortunately, accounts like this seem to be in the minority - instead we have children & peasants & women, all of whom can be induced to believe anything, since that is what Christians do.** In such an atmosphere, anyone who does not accept such things at their face value can be sure of trouble. **The plausibility of most of these stories cannot be tested; one kind of knowledge that is all too often lacking relates to the psychology of the recipients of these supposed events. A supposedly supernatural occurrence could be a miscategorised or misdescribed hallucination that was not recognised as such, simply because the means to do so were lacking. That wouldn’t make it any more genuinely supernatural
**What is to stop a story being made up ? There is no reason to assume that people must be telling the truth; the article in the CE on impostors does not support the fantasy that people never tell lies about such things. **
**There is no virtue in believing every tale of apparitions - that sort of credulousness leads to superstition; & from there it’s a short step to atheism. The false prophecies arising from too many recent apparitions show their true character
**Father Poulain’s account of apparitions & of the narratives which relate them ought to be required reading for all those who think that reserve in accepting such stories is a sign of “modernism”. I thought some of it was on the Theotokos site - but it seems not to be. Nonetheless, part of this is taken from his book:People can’t make claims unless they know of other claims ? That makes no sense. People are quite capable of making false claims by themselves, even if they are in good faith.
R
RevDrNorth
Guest
Christians do.** **
Amazing! Do you really mean to say that women are not credible since they can be induced to believe anything.
I assume since this is the 21st Century, you are not serious.
E
elt1956
Guest
Depends on what one considers a miracle, I guess. Great good has come out of people believing in miracles. Faith is a miracle, transubstantation at Mass is a miracle. Life itself is a miracle.
Peace.
L
Linda_Marie
Guest
I suppose mass hysteria dried everyone’s soaking wet clothing and the muddy ground as well.
Those not within the Cova, but in surrounding villages who did not attend also witnessed the miracle of the sun. They could not have been subject to the same ‘mass hysteria’ that you claim affected the people at the Cova. Why would they see the same thing, miles away, without the crowd to shout what they saw to suggest that they saw it too?
members.aol.com/bjw1106/marian6.htm
Here is a site that has the secular newpaper reports and other witness statements of that day:
overcomeproblems.com/fatima.htm
1
1234
Guest
You are changing the definition of the word miracle.Depends on what one considers a miracle, I guess. Great good has come out of people believing in miracles. Faith is a miracle, transubstantation at Mass is a miracle. Life itself is a miracle.
I am surprised that no one was there (Fatima) with an early version of a movie camera. Surely those were around then. And since a great ‘miracle’ was expected, why didn’t the newspapers bring one along and start shooting when the sun started to dance?
Anybody know anything about this?
G
Goth_Catholic
Guest
Jesus said to enter the kingdom of heaven you must belive like a little child. He also said blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.
N
NaturalEnquirer
Guest
Before we start running for this sliding goalpost, do you agree that mass hysteria is not a reasonable explanation for the phenomenon?
God bless!
C
Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
Hello 1234 again,
Something phenomenal happened at Fatima on Oct 13th 1917. Most people - including Protestants - agree. It’s a matter of history.
Unfortunately, some people attribute this phenoma to demonic intervention, and not divine intervention.
So, a video camera won’t help.
Are you still in denial regarding that something phenomenal happened that day?
P
peary
Guest
That is not true. Those who have seen Mary in apparitions approved by the Church are quite specific in their descriptions of her - with clarity. They do not generalize things. If there is a message associated with the appearances, then the messages themselves are quite specific and to the point. Rome usually leaves it up to the diocese to approve apparitions in its own jurisdiction.
E
elt1956
Guest
:banghead:
F
Fergal
Guest
There are many documented photos of the sun during that miraculous event at Fatima.
There are many documented photos of the peoples response to the miracle.
The communist newspaper “O Seculo” reported that the sun danced and this was reported by a very active and well established communist press.
In any case what we are dealing with here is not just a miracle but a very special event in our time called a ‘Theophany’ - a manifestation of God, that is tangible to the human senses.
Please remember folks before you loose the head that to those who believe, no miracle is necessary. To those who don’t believe no miracle is ever enough.
There are many documented photos of the peoples response to the miracle.
The communist newspaper “O Seculo” reported that the sun danced and this was reported by a very active and well established communist press.
In any case what we are dealing with here is not just a miracle but a very special event in our time called a ‘Theophany’ - a manifestation of God, that is tangible to the human senses.
Please remember folks before you loose the head that to those who believe, no miracle is necessary. To those who don’t believe no miracle is ever enough.
P
peary
Guest
The symbolic representation of Our Lady at Guadalupe also has something to say about Islam too.
I
Insight
Guest
Greetings Gottle of Gear,
God Bless
Code:
Rather than us meager humans dictating to Almighty God how to conduct His business, it may be more prudent to meditate on His Divine Wisdom (in observing how God actually does conduct His business). Rather than demanding the Creator of the Universe to limit His Divine communications to those we silly men foolishly consider wise, perhaps we should deduce why He typically reveals Himself to the poor and ignorant. “I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.” (Matt 11:25)
God did not send his Angels to the most wise and learned men to inform the world that the Messiah has been born, but to poor uneducated shepherds. Do men of good will suite God’s requirements better than learned men? Jesus did not select the Chief Priests, Scribes and Pharisees to be his Disciples, but poor ignorant fishermen. Was the first person to see Jesus resurrected a Magnificent Queen, or a humble reformed prostitute? Why does God do these things? Is He reading hearts?
Fatima falls in line with God’s previous Divine activities. Perhaps the revelations to poor little children in language and words beyond their limited wisdom helps to serve as proof? Maybe they are more innocent. Maybe wise men would have added their own analysis. Would people be more inclined to believe a wise and learned person? Jesus raised Lazarus who was dead for four days in front of the Chief Priest, Scribes and Pharisees. Did they believe? On the contrary, instead of believing, they began planning to kill him. God knows what He is doing.
P
peary
Guest
Originally Posted by Zenas
Yes, and I think it happens a lot more often than gets reported. But one thing I’m really curious about, why does Mary only appear to Catholics?
Well, for one thing, there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.
Yes, and I think it happens a lot more often than gets reported. But one thing I’m really curious about, why does Mary only appear to Catholics?
Well, for one thing, there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.
I
Insight
Guest
Hi Peary,
As Catholics, we only hear about the Marian Apparitions to Catholics. “Sometime during the sixteenth century, Our Lady with her infant son appeared to a Hindu boy carrying milk to a customer’s home. While he rested under a Banyan tree near a tank (pond), Our Lady appeared to him and asked for milk for her Son and the boy gave her some. On reaching the customer’s home, the boy apologized for his lateness and the reduced amount of milk by relating the incident that occurred on his way. On inspection, the man found the milk pot to be full and realized that something miraculous had happened. That man, also a Hindu, wanting to see the place where the apparition occurred, accompanied the boy.
When they reached the tank, Our Lady appeared once again. On learning that it was Our Lady who appeared to the boy, the residents of the local community became ecstatic. The tank where the apparition took place is called “Matha Kulam” or Our Lady’s tank.” (Our Lady of Vailankanni). This was not approved by the Catholic Church, quite possibly because no Catholics were involved.
As for no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, perhaps. Or maybe God provides some means that we are unaware of, as He did for those who died prior to the birth of Christ.
Hi 1234,
Witnesses reported that just prior to the Fatima miracle, a Priest attempted to disperse the crowd, declaring it was a hoax. When that failed, he attempted to physically pick up the children and remove them. Again, the crowd prevented him. The miracle of Fatima was one of the greatest miracles of all time, for several reasons. It was witnessed by nearly 100,000 people, even as far as 32 miles away. All who witnessed it were astonished by the spectacular demonstration of the miracle. Not only did they see the fire of the sun detach itself and fall upon the earth, but they felt the intense heat. The flooded grounds and their soaked clothes from the torrential rain, just prior to the miracle, dried up immediately before their eyes. Some were up to their ankles in mud, then standing upon dry soil. Moreover, it was the only miracle in the history of the world that God performed at a predicted time and place. As the Holy Mother of God explained: “So that all may believe”.
And who believed? The atheist communist tabloids acknowledged it as a miracle by God the very next morning. It took thirteen long years before the Holy Roman Catholic Church acknowledged the Fatima Miracle to be of Divine origin. Previous to that, witnesses reported that Priests that believed and defended the children were transferred far away from the local Parishes, (Fatima: “Meet the Witnesses”, by John M. Haffert – Haffert personally interviewed dozens of witnesses in fine detail). How badly we behave in response to great miracles, even back to the times when Moses parted the sea. And yet, we incredulous people wonder why there are so few miracles today. “And He did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief”’ (Matt 13:58).
Some audio I found on Fatima by John Haffert, posted in Mp3 format:
001A Fatima.Mp3
God Bless
As Catholics, we only hear about the Marian Apparitions to Catholics. “Sometime during the sixteenth century, Our Lady with her infant son appeared to a Hindu boy carrying milk to a customer’s home. While he rested under a Banyan tree near a tank (pond), Our Lady appeared to him and asked for milk for her Son and the boy gave her some. On reaching the customer’s home, the boy apologized for his lateness and the reduced amount of milk by relating the incident that occurred on his way. On inspection, the man found the milk pot to be full and realized that something miraculous had happened. That man, also a Hindu, wanting to see the place where the apparition occurred, accompanied the boy.
When they reached the tank, Our Lady appeared once again. On learning that it was Our Lady who appeared to the boy, the residents of the local community became ecstatic. The tank where the apparition took place is called “Matha Kulam” or Our Lady’s tank.” (Our Lady of Vailankanni). This was not approved by the Catholic Church, quite possibly because no Catholics were involved.
As for no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, perhaps. Or maybe God provides some means that we are unaware of, as He did for those who died prior to the birth of Christ.
Hi 1234,
Witnesses reported that just prior to the Fatima miracle, a Priest attempted to disperse the crowd, declaring it was a hoax. When that failed, he attempted to physically pick up the children and remove them. Again, the crowd prevented him. The miracle of Fatima was one of the greatest miracles of all time, for several reasons. It was witnessed by nearly 100,000 people, even as far as 32 miles away. All who witnessed it were astonished by the spectacular demonstration of the miracle. Not only did they see the fire of the sun detach itself and fall upon the earth, but they felt the intense heat. The flooded grounds and their soaked clothes from the torrential rain, just prior to the miracle, dried up immediately before their eyes. Some were up to their ankles in mud, then standing upon dry soil. Moreover, it was the only miracle in the history of the world that God performed at a predicted time and place. As the Holy Mother of God explained: “So that all may believe”.
And who believed? The atheist communist tabloids acknowledged it as a miracle by God the very next morning. It took thirteen long years before the Holy Roman Catholic Church acknowledged the Fatima Miracle to be of Divine origin. Previous to that, witnesses reported that Priests that believed and defended the children were transferred far away from the local Parishes, (Fatima: “Meet the Witnesses”, by John M. Haffert – Haffert personally interviewed dozens of witnesses in fine detail). How badly we behave in response to great miracles, even back to the times when Moses parted the sea. And yet, we incredulous people wonder why there are so few miracles today. “And He did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief”’ (Matt 13:58).
Some audio I found on Fatima by John Haffert, posted in Mp3 format:
001A Fatima.Mp3
Code:
Fergal posted, “For those who don't believe, no miracle is ever enough.” I am aware the Church’s verdict on Medjugorje is pending the final outcome. If it is of God, perhaps the opposition of unbelievers to such a powerful Miracle, such as the one given at Fatima, may be the basis for the promised Medjugorje miracle. The Visionaries of Medjugorje promised a miracle far greater than the one given at Fatima, and claimed that it will remain wondrous and indestructible for all eternity. But this promised Miracle comes with a warning: “All will certainly believe when the miracle takes place. But for those who resisted the Apparitions previously, it will be too late. The sins of not recognizing and offending Our Holy Mother will remain, just as sins of offending the Holy Spirit of the Living God remain.” If this Miracle does take place, it will be in a time of modern media.- Status