Applause during Mass

[russell007]

Actually, according to the rubrics, the priest is “in charge” of the Mass, under the authority of the bishop. Applause is not specifically forbidden in the rubrics. So if the priest or bishop asks for or allows applause, then we as faithful Catholics will do no wrong by submitting to our priest or bishop.

The rubrics do not specifically address holding hands during the Our Father. Some Catholics assume that means that no one can hold hands. Other Catholics, like me, assume that if the rubrics are silent, it is not forbidden. I personally do not hold hands or assume the “orans” position during the Our Father, as I was taught that this is not the norm for Mass.

Yes, I have attended many Life Teen Masses. Our parish offers Life Teen Mass every Sunday evening, and it is generally standing room only, attended by a few hundred teenagers, as well as their parents and others who enjoy contemporary music performed by young people. The Mass follows the rubrics and does not contain abuses (e.g., gathering around the altar is not done). Our bishop is one of the most conservative and orthodox in the U.S., (Bishop Thomas Doran) and he encourages the Life Teen Mass at our parish.

Yes, the Catholic Church is rites and ceremonies, and no, the Holy See has not been wrong for 2000 years. But the Catholic Church is, above all, the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ, and our primary responsibility is to lift Him up so that all men might be drawn to Him. Rites and ceremonies change through the centuries, because Jesus gave the Catholic Church authority here on this earth to make changes when necessary.

With all charatable intentions:

Lack of mention is not justification of action Although its a typical response.

Does the GIRM mention not to drink miller light during mass? So if it doesnt and I feel
the spirit moves me to have a miller light because thats how I personally show fellowship
I should do it?

Holding hands and applause is a liturgical irregularity where do we stop???
Where should be draw the line?

Holding hand is not appropriate during the Our Father because accoring to the GIRM “Notitiae” Vol. XI (1975) p. 226] :

“. . .holding hands is a sign of intimacy and not reconciliation, and as such disrupts the flow of the Sacramental signs in the Mass which leads to the Sacramental sign of intimacy with Christ and our neighbor, Holy Communion.” Today it still makes sense

The official publication of the Sacred Congregation for the Sacrament sand Divine Worship, Notitiae (11 [1975] 226), states the practice “must be repudiated . . . it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on a personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics.” Again today it still makes sense

Anything not in the rubrics is unlawful, again because “no other person . . . may add . . . anything to the liturgy on his own authority” (ibid).

The process for introducing any new rite or gesture into the liturgy in a stable or even binding manner is already contemplated in liturgical law. This process entails a two-thirds majority vote in the bishops’ conference and the go-ahead from the Holy See before any change may take effect.

It is an illicit act.

We are talking about the Holy Sacrafice of Mass acclamation should be given in prayer not applause. i.e. Thanks be to God, Praise be to God etc…

Would you rather have someone pray for you or applaud you? Think about it.
Would you rather people thank God and praise God or applaud you?

I personally would rather people thank God for my help/volunteer work becasue it gives glory to God and not me as it should be.

I am a servant of God.

For those who advocate using contemporary music in mass to intice young people to stay Catholic well thats just sad.

The Pope believes that if Latin Masses are reintroduced, more Catholics will learn the words to the Gregorian chants that he advocates.

God Bless Pope Benedict!!

God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow hes not going to change things to satisfy our needs when all we need is him!

The church has not changed one dogma in 2000 years. Now thats something to applaud! LOL

Peace be with you

 

[Cat]

With all charatable intentions:

Lack of mention is not justification of action Although its a typical response.

Does the GIRM mention not to drink miller light during mass? So if it doesnt and I feel
the spirit moves me to have a miller light because thats how I personally show fellowship
I should do it?

Holding hands and applause is a liturgical irregularity where do we stop???
Where should be draw the line?

Holding hand is not appropriate during the Our Father because accoring to the GIRM “Notitiae” Vol. XI (1975) p. 226] :

“. . .holding hands is a sign of intimacy and not reconciliation, and as such disrupts the flow of the Sacramental signs in the Mass which leads to the Sacramental sign of intimacy with Christ and our neighbor, Holy Communion.” Today it still makes sense

The official publication of the Sacred Congregation for the Sacrament sand Divine Worship, Notitiae (11 [1975] 226), states the practice “must be repudiated . . . it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on a personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics.” Again today it still makes sense

Anything not in the rubrics is unlawful, again because “no other person . . . may add . . . anything to the liturgy on his own authority” (ibid).

The process for introducing any new rite or gesture into the liturgy in a stable or even binding manner is already contemplated in liturgical law. This process entails a two-thirds majority vote in the bishops’ conference and the go-ahead from the Holy See before any change may take effect.

It is an illicit act.

We are talking about the Holy Sacrafice of Mass acclamation should be given in prayer not applause. i.e. Thanks be to God, Praise be to God etc…

Would you rather have someone pray for you or applaud you? Think about it.
Would you rather people thank God and praise God or applaud you?

I personally would rather people thank God for my help/volunteer work becasue it gives glory to God and not me as it should be.

I am a servant of God.

For those who advocate using contemporary music in mass to intice young people to stay Catholic well thats just sad.

The Pope believes that if Latin Masses are reintroduced, more Catholics will learn the words to the Gregorian chants that he advocates.

God Bless Pope Benedict!!

God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow hes not going to change things to satisfy our needs when all we need is him!

The church has not changed one dogma in 2000 years. Now thats something to applaud! LOL

Peace be with you

I submit to my bishop and priests, and they have at times allowed or even asked for applause in the Mass. I trust them and I do no wrong to submit to them during Mass. If they are in the wrong, the Holy Spirit and their superiors in the Church will deal with them.

Why is it sad to use music to attract young people and older people who better understand contemporary music to the Mass? Would you prefer that these people just stay home and never attend Mass? I don’t think many of the parents of these teenagers would agree with you.

BTW, our diocese has a surplus of vocations, and many of the vocations come from teenagers who attended the Life Teen Mass at our parish (I know that because when they publish their biographies in the diocescan newspaper, the priests give credit to Life Teen Mass for helping them stay in the Church.)

As for Latin Masses, our city has had the TLM since the mid-1980s. It is done by the ICK priests in a beautiful old church in a central location in the city. It is attended by a faithful but small crowd of families. It certainly does not attract many people. We have a large population of Catholics in the city, including a large population of Polish Catholics (who generally attend Mass in Polish at their parish). So based on my personal experience and the experience of our city over the last twenty years or so, I’m afraid I am skeptical that TLM Mass will attract back a large number of Catholics. I’ll believe it when I see it.

As for your questions about applause vs. prayers, I don’t see the point. When you read the New Testament, you can see that St. Paul is quite eloquent in expressing thanks, in writing, to the people who have done good works for him and the Lord. I do not think it is wrong for people to praise other people–quite the opposite. St. Paul says that we should honor men who do good things. Jesus Himself praised the one leper (out of ten) who returned to say “Thank You.” I do not work in the Church for the sake of the applause or thank yous, but I certainly appreciate a word of thanks, including applause, from my fellow human beings. It is, as I said earlier, a way for people to show mercy, kindness, and humility. Why would we withold these things from fellow Christians? Does withholding loving words somehow make others stronger? I see nothing wrong or sinful in encouraging others with kindness, and praying for them, too. Again, I suggest reading the New Testament again.

 

[russell007]

I submit to my bishop and priests, and they have at times allowed or even asked for applause in the Mass. I trust them and I do no wrong to submit to them during Mass. If they are in the wrong, the Holy Spirit and their superiors in the Church will deal with them.

Why is it sad to use music to attract young people and older people who better understand contemporary music to the Mass? Would you prefer that these people just stay home and never attend Mass? I don’t think many of the parents of these teenagers would agree with you.

BTW, our diocese has a surplus of vocations, and many of the vocations come from teenagers who attended the Life Teen Mass at our parish (I know that because when they publish their biographies in the diocescan newspaper, the priests give credit to Life Teen Mass for helping them stay in the Church.)

As for Latin Masses, our city has had the TLM since the mid-1980s. It is done by the ICK priests in a beautiful old church in a central location in the city. It is attended by a faithful but small crowd of families. It certainly does not attract many people. We have a large population of Catholics in the city, including a large population of Polish Catholics (who generally attend Mass in Polish at their parish). So based on my personal experience and the experience of our city over the last twenty years or so, I’m afraid I am skeptical that TLM Mass will attract back a large number of Catholics. I’ll believe it when I see it.

As for your questions about applause vs. prayers, I don’t see the point. When you read the New Testament, you can see that St. Paul is quite eloquent in expressing thanks, in writing, to the people who have done good works for him and the Lord. I do not think it is wrong for people to praise other people–quite the opposite. St. Paul says that we should honor men who do good things. Jesus Himself praised the one leper (out of ten) who returned to say “Thank You.” I do not work in the Church for the sake of the applause or thank yous, but I certainly appreciate a word of thanks, including applause, from my fellow human beings. It is, as I said earlier, a way for people to show mercy, kindness, and humility. Why would we withold these things from fellow Christians? Does withholding loving words somehow make others stronger? I see nothing wrong or sinful in encouraging others with kindness, and praying for them, too. Again, I suggest reading the New Testament again.

Cat,

Biblically speaking faith is a gift from God either you have it or you dont.

No amount of music, hip masses, dancing in the pews etc… Will change that fact

Trying to change mass to entice anyone is just silly

You read about the festable of booths the Arc of the covenant all this was put together with precision instructions from God

If the bible teaches us anything God is not a God of chaos.

God is not a cherry picker going to and fro making sure everything is according to how we want things.

Applause holding hands modern music in mass these are human fulfillment. Why do you think there is over 1500 different Christian religions out there?

Its a buffet of ways to worship and only one God that has been the same since the beginning.

If your saying its ok to change up things a bit your actually saying the Holy Spirit doesnt know what hes doing when he inspired the GIRM,Mass and needs a helping hand.

Because (breaking it down) modern music,holding hands, and applause are not in the 2000 year old instruction manuel of our beloved Roman Catholic Church

This stuff is considerd an liturgical irregularity brought on by charismatic, spontanoious,touchy feel good,protestant mentalitlty

Our Mass has been inspired by the Holy Spirit to be peaceful respectful way to worship our Lord and savour Jesus Christ. Not a self fulfilling hour of applause, music, celibrating human achievment.

You know I listen to classic rock and have no need for them to play stairway to heaven
to feel Jesus’s presence in the Eucharist.

Enjoy Jesus’s true presence with respect to him.

Peace be with you

 

[benedictgal]

Jesus made it very clear in His words and by His actions that He wasn’t interested in ceremonies as much as He was in showing love and doing good.

Au contraire. Jesus was referring to the extra-curricular activities that the Pharisees had mandated, not the original form of cultic worship of Ancient Israel, which His own Father had personally dictated to Moses. Jesus was a stickler for following the norms and rubrics that His Father set forth regarding sacrificial worship. His concern was that the Pharisees were trying to apply the Levitical law (which was meant for only the priests) to all of Ancient Israel. Jesus was not going against what His own Father dictated and mandated. That would be as though God were contradicting Himself.

Furthermore, the first commandment of the two great commandments that Jesus pointed out was to love God. Loving God means offering Him the worship that is due His divine majesty. The Mass is not about ourselves. It is focused on God. It is about God.

When we applaud someone for some human achievement, such as playing the piano, singing, graduating, etc., then we make the Mass about celebrating ourselves.

 

[Cat]

Au contraire. Jesus was referring to the extra-curricular activities that the Pharisees had mandated, not the original form of cultic worship of Ancient Israel, which His own Father had personally dictated to Moses. Jesus was a stickler for following the norms and rubrics that His Father set forth regarding sacrificial worship. His concern was that the Pharisees were trying to apply the Levitical law (which was meant for only the priests) to all of Ancient Israel. Jesus was not going against what His own Father dictated and mandated. That would be as though God were contradicting Himself.

Furthermore, the first commandment of the two great commandments that Jesus pointed out was to love God. Loving God means offering Him the worship that is due His divine majesty. The Mass is not about ourselves. It is focused on God. It is about God.

When we applaud someone for some human achievement, such as playing the piano, singing, graduating, etc., then we make the Mass about celebrating ourselves.

Once again, I will state that applause is a way of saying THANK YOU. It doesn’t “celebrate ourselves.” Saying thank you is one way to demonstrate love and kindness.

If saying Thank You is wrong…well, it just isn’t. You’re reading too much into the GIRM. You are saying that you know more than bishops and priests who have spent years in seminary studying the Mass.

The GIRM doesn’t mention crying during Mass, either. But if someone cries, either because they are touched by something (one of the readings, the homily, the beauty of Jesus in the Eucharist), or because they are grieving for someone or something, then I suppose THAT is illict, since it isn’t part of the Mass. Ridiculous.

 

[benedictgal]

Once again, I will state that applause is a way of saying THANK YOU. It doesn’t “celebrate ourselves.” Saying thank you is one way to demonstrate love and kindness.

If saying Thank You is wrong…well, it just isn’t. You’re reading too much into the GIRM. You are saying that you know more than bishops and priests who have spent years in seminary studying the Mass.

The GIRM doesn’t mention crying during Mass, either. But if someone cries, either because they are touched by something (one of the readings, the homily, the beauty of Jesus in the Eucharist), or because they are grieving for someone or something, then I suppose THAT is illict, since it isn’t part of the Mass. Ridiculous.

Unfortunately, the argument that you are making simply does not hold any water. You are comparing apples to watermelons at this point. There is also no need for you to make accustory insults. The authoritative liturgical documents are there for everyone ot read. It perhaps may help you to avail yourself of them. Perhaps, if you read them, you might get a better perspective on things.

You can say “thank you” in private, after Mass. Crying is someone an individual does on his own. I have cried during Mass, but, it’s a private, personal nature. It’s not something that involves the entire congregation. Applause, on the other hand, does. Just because a priest or a bishop may condone it, that does not necessarily make it right.

With all due respect, it might help you to actually sit down and read the book, The Spirit of the Liturgy, so that you can get a better perspective on what the Holy Father is trying ot say.

 

[FrDavid96]

Once again, I will state that applause is a way of saying THANK YOU. It doesn’t “celebrate ourselves.” Saying thank you is one way to demonstrate love and kindness.

If saying Thank You is wrong…well, it just isn’t. You’re reading too much into the GIRM. You are saying that you know more than bishops and priests who have spent years in seminary studying the Mass.

The GIRM doesn’t mention crying during Mass, either. But if someone cries, either because they are touched by something (one of the readings, the homily, the beauty of Jesus in the Eucharist), or because they are grieving for someone or something, then I suppose THAT is illict, since it isn’t part of the Mass. Ridiculous.

I wonder how you reconcile that with Pope Benedict’s own words (as Cardinal) when he wrote:

“Whenever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievment, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment” in The Spirit of the Liturgy???

Are you saying that Pope Benedict “knows more than the bishops and priests”? If you are, I completely agree.

And by the way, any legitimate seminary training teaches future priests that applause is not appropriate in the Mass–just as the Pope tells us.

On another note, it’s hardly true to say that bishops and priests think applause is appropriate–most realize the fact that it is not. There is a small minority who do. But then again, there’s also a small minority who feel that clown masses should be forced upon people.

 

[Indyann]

I wonder how you reconcile that with Pope Benedict’s own words (as Cardinal) when he wrote:

“Whenever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievment, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment” in The Spirit of the Liturgy???

Are you saying that Pope Benedict “knows more than the bishops and priests”? If you are, I completely agree.

And by the way, any legitimate seminary training teaches future priests that applause is not appropriate in the Mass–just as the Pope tells us.

On another note, it’s hardly true to say that bishops and priests think applause is appropriate–most realize the fact that it is not. There is a small minority who do. But then again, there’s also a small minority who feel that clown masses should be forced upon people.

This may have been brought up earlier, I admit to not having read the whole thread. But, one parish, I sometimes attend do applaude, but it is always after the recessional hymn is finished.

I do not applaud, but silently say “Thank you, Jesus, for giving all of us the grace to gather here to give you glory”

How do we know that those who do applaud are not symbolizing the same sentiments?

 

[FrDavid96]

This may have been brought up earlier, I admit to not having read the whole thread. But, one parish, I sometimes attend do applaude, but it is always after the recessional hymn is finished.

I do not applaud, but silently say “Thank you, Jesus, for giving all of us the grace to gather here to give you glory”

How do we know that those who do applaud are not symbolizing the same sentiments?

We already say a collective “thank you” to God at the end of the Mass when everyone says “Deo gratias / Thanks be to God” in no way does this preclude a private or even communal act of thanksgiving after Mass. But an act of applause is not an act of thanksgiving.

The reason I’ve posted the Holy Father’s words yet again is because some people seem to take issue with them. Applause is simply not an appropriate part of the Mass, even if it does come after the recessional. There are appropriate times and ways to say thank you to the people who work to make the Mass happen, but adding applause to the Mass “is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment.” We don’t come to Mass to be entertained (or at least we should not), we come to worship God in Spirit and in Truth.

It in interresting to note that all of the arguments in favor of applause at Mass have a common theme: that of thanking or recognizing people as if they were entertainers. It’s very telling.

 

[Indyann]

We already say a collective “thank you” to God at the end of the Mass when everyone says “Deo gratias / Thanks be to God” in no way does this preclude a private or even communal act of thanksgiving after Mass. But an act of applause is not an act of thanksgiving.

The reason I’ve posted the Holy Father’s words yet again is because some people seem to take issue with them. Applause is simply not an appropriate part of the Mass, even if it does come after the recessional. There are appropriate times and ways to say thank you to the people who work to make the Mass happen, but adding applause to the Mass “is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment.” We don’t come to Mass to be entertained (or at least we should not), we come to worship God in Spirit and in Truth.

It in interresting to note that all of the arguments in favor of applause at Mass have a common theme: that of thanking or recognizing people as if they were entertainers. It’s very telling.

With all due respect, it seems as though, you have misread my post.

I am well aware of the Pope’s statement about applause “during the Mass”. I thought the Mass technically ended at “Go in peace”.

No where did I say that applause was intended to recognize people.

I said “Thanking Jesus, for giving us the grace”.

I thought we were cautioned to always assume the best of motives, rather than the worst, when discerning a situation.

 

[FrDavid96]

With all due respect, it seems as though, you have misread my post.

I am well aware of the Pope’s statement about applause “during the Mass”. I thought the Mass technically ended at “Go in peace”.

No where did I say that applause was intended to recognize people.

I said “Thanking Jesus, for giving us the grace”.

I thought we were cautioned to always assume the best of motives, rather than the worst, when discerning a situation.

When a person is doing something that is objectively wrong, we don’t assume the best of motives.

Having applause after the words “Thanks be to God” does not change the fact that the applause itself is still inappropriate because it’s attached to the Mass.

 

[Cat]

Unfortunately, the argument that you are making simply does not hold any water. You are comparing apples to watermelons at this point. There is also no need for you to make accustory insults. The authoritative liturgical documents are there for everyone ot read. It perhaps may help you to avail yourself of them. Perhaps, if you read them, you might get a better perspective on things.

You can say “thank you” in private, after Mass. Crying is someone an individual does on his own. I have cried during Mass, but, it’s a private, personal nature. It’s not something that involves the entire congregation. Applause, on the other hand, does. Just because a priest or a bishop may condone it, that does not necessarily make it right.

With all due respect, it might help you to actually sit down and read the book, The Spirit of the Liturgy, so that you can get a better perspective on what the Holy Father is trying ot say.

Accusatory insult? I cannot see where I made an accusatory insult. I certainly didn’t intend to. Can you please point out the exact words so that I will understand what you are telling me? I don’t want to get in trouble with the Moderators again. Thank you.

 

[Cat]

We already say a collective “thank you” to God at the end of the Mass when everyone says “Deo gratias / Thanks be to God” in no way does this preclude a private or even communal act of thanksgiving after Mass. But an act of applause is not an act of thanksgiving.

The reason I’ve posted the Holy Father’s words yet again is because some people seem to take issue with them. Applause is simply not an appropriate part of the Mass, even if it does come after the recessional. There are appropriate times and ways to say thank you to the people who work to make the Mass happen, but adding applause to the Mass “is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment.” We don’t come to Mass to be entertained (or at least we should not), we come to worship God in Spirit and in Truth.

It in interresting to note that all of the arguments in favor of applause at Mass have a common theme: that of thanking or recognizing people as if they were entertainers. It’s very telling.

I believe that the quote from Pope Benedict XVI is his opinion, stated in a book. As far as I know, it is not binding dogma, nor is it part of the rubrics.

Why is it that “thank you” is associated with “entertainers?” There are many situations where people are thanked when they are not entertainers. When someone does a kind act, they are hardly entertainers, but we should thank them anyway. And if many people were helped by that kind act, it is appropriate for the group to corporately thank the kind person.

For example, few weeks ago, one of our beloved parochial vicars celebrated his last Mass in our parish. He was born and raised in the parish, and assigned there after his ordination, and now is moving to his own parish. The congregation applauded after he said his goodbye. We were not applauding him because he’s a real crowd-pleaser or tickles our fancy with his homilies. (Quite the opposite–he’s a very strict priest who actually admonishes people for allowing their cell phones to disrupt the Mass.)

It had nothing to do with “entertainment.” The day that the Catholic Mass becomes “entertaining” will never happen. It is simply not possible. Entertaining is a production of The Producers, or a symphony concert, or an ice skating show. Mass is no where near. The only way a Mass could be entertaining is to make it not a Mass.

Mass is the re-presentation of Christ’s Sacrifice, and that is not entertaining. It is touching, though, and I think that human reactions should not be scorned as “entertainment symptoms.” I think it’s possible that modern people who understand the significance of the sacrifice would have applauded as Jesus gave up the ghost on the cross–He did a magnificent thing–dying for the sins of mankind. For modern humans, applause would express their deep thanks and respect for the Lord. Have you ever attended a Pentecostal worship service? Or an African American worship service? These Christians applaud the Lord frequently. It is an emotional reaction to their deep awe and respect and love for Him. The applause is not of this world.

We were applauding our parochial vicar to show our love for him. We were honoring him as a native son of the parish who became a priest. We were telling him that he has helped us to grow in the faith.

Of course many people thanked him again afterwards, and of course, many people gave money to his going-away collection, and probably gave him other gifts privately.

But there is something special about a corporate “thank you.” It implies unity. It demonstrates that everyone is in agreement, and this is a very encouraging thing for the recipient of the “thank you” to know.

And why is it that clapping, including “thank you” clapping, cannot be part of worship? The Psalms are full of statements about clapping to the Lord. You speak of it as though it is a vile act.

 

[russell007]

When a person is doing something that is objectively wrong, we don’t assume the best of motives.

Having applause after the words “Thanks be to God” does not change the fact that the applause itself is still inappropriate because it’s attached to the Mass.

Fr David,

In my humble opinion I believe that because of the charismatic insurgents we have had for the past 40 some odd years applause, modern music, holding hands has become common place so much so you find yourself defending the faith to our own Roman Catholic brothers and sisters. They know not of any other way to be.

Words of the saints and holy people simply have no place if it goes against basic human emotions people prefer to exspress their emothions rather than follow what should be and what should have never been.

People use the “lack of mention” Well it doesnt say we cant do it. Childish exscuse if you ask me.

Heres a story to break it down a little bit:

Mother to child…Tommy I have to work late tonight so I want you home after school. Tommy: Ok mom…(Mom comes home and then Tommy walks in behind her) Tommy where were you? I said come home after school!
Tommy: I just did mom but I stopped at a friends house first…You never said I couldnt stop at a friends house before comming home.You just said come home after school.

Same childish antics.

Think about this A non catholic goes to mass they take in the beauty of the church the nice ceramony. Their back ground is most likley charismatic compared to how we wroship
so its difficult to understand why anyone would have any concerns about applause it probably sounds very petty. I can understand someone who is involved with charismatic programs thinking they are doing a great service to our Lord and someone comes along and says Hey you know your not supposed to be doing that I can see why that is offensive to them. As Paul said If I do not tell you your sins then God will hold me responsable.

As I stated before when I was growing up in the seventies about half the pew would remain sitting during communion this shows respect for our Lord (Paul even states not to go to communion with sins) Now days seems erevyone gets up and goes. Does this mean
the whole church is with out mortal sin? And if it doesnt what does that tell us?

I think it tell us to revisit why we are Catholic and what it means to be Catholic.

As John the Baptist says CLEARLY GODS WAYS ARE NOT OUR WAYS!

Meaning we are to do things his ways You may it a difficult road but then thats why the gate to Heaven is narrow and the gates to hell are wide open.

Pax et bonum

Respectfully,

Russell

 

[FrDavid96]

I believe that the quote from Pope Benedict XVI is his opinion, stated in a book. As far as I know, it is not binding dogma, nor is it part of the rubrics.

Why is it that “thank you” is associated with “entertainers?” There are many situations where people are thanked when they are not entertainers. When someone does a kind act, they are hardly entertainers, but we should thank them anyway. And if many people were helped by that kind act, it is appropriate for the group to corporately thank the kind person.

For example, few weeks ago, one of our beloved parochial vicars celebrated his last Mass in our parish. He was born and raised in the parish, and assigned there after his ordination, and now is moving to his own parish. The congregation applauded after he said his goodbye. We were not applauding him because he’s a real crowd-pleaser or tickles our fancy with his homilies. (Quite the opposite–he’s a very strict priest who actually admonishes people for allowing their cell phones to disrupt the Mass.)

It had nothing to do with “entertainment.” The day that the Catholic Mass becomes “entertaining” will never happen. It is simply not possible. Entertaining is a production of The Producers, or a symphony concert, or an ice skating show. Mass is no where near. The only way a Mass could be entertaining is to make it not a Mass.

Mass is the re-presentation of Christ’s Sacrifice, and that is not entertaining. It is touching, though, and I think that human reactions should not be scorned as “entertainment symptoms.” I think it’s possible that modern people who understand the significance of the sacrifice would have applauded as Jesus gave up the ghost on the cross–He did a magnificent thing–dying for the sins of mankind. For modern humans, applause would express their deep thanks and respect for the Lord. Have you ever attended a Pentecostal worship service? Or an African American worship service? These Christians applaud the Lord frequently. It is an emotional reaction to their deep awe and respect and love for Him. The applause is not of this world.

We were applauding our parochial vicar to show our love for him. We were honoring him as a native son of the parish who became a priest. We were telling him that he has helped us to grow in the faith.

Of course many people thanked him again afterwards, and of course, many people gave money to his going-away collection, and probably gave him other gifts privately.

But there is something special about a corporate “thank you.” It implies unity. It demonstrates that everyone is in agreement, and this is a very encouraging thing for the recipient of the “thank you” to know.

And why is it that clapping, including “thank you” clapping, cannot be part of worship? The Psalms are full of statements about clapping to the Lord. You speak of it as though it is a vile act.

As I’ve said repeatedly, it’s entirely appropriate to say “thank you” to people. I’ve never disputed that. What I have been trying to get across is that applause at Mass or attached to the Mass is not appropriate. There is a difference there.

In the example you’ve given, the priest said his goodbyes to the parish, and they responded by thanking him. I’m not objecting to that. The applause in that case was a response to his “goodbye” not necessarily a response to that Mass. Again, the essential difference.

If it’s possible and practical a priest who leaves a parish (merely to use your own example) should be given the opportunity to say his goodbye and his own thank you in the parish hall or some other place outside of the church proper. That’s not always possible, and sometimes the church has to be used for this purpose. Likewise for anyone else in a similar situation (a retiring organist, to give another example and there could be any number of similar situations.)

And no one has claimed that the book The Spirit of the Liturgy is liturgical law, but the point is obvious that it is the opinion of the Pope and we should respect that opinion. When someone else shares the same opinion, that person is on solid ground. No one claims it to be “dogma” but it is an opinion worty of respect and an example for us to follow.

 

[FrDavid96]

Fr David,

In my humble opinion I believe that because of the charismatic insurgents we have had for the past 40 some odd years applause, modern music, holding hands has become common place so much so you find yourself defending the faith to our own Roman Catholic brothers and sisters. They know not of any other way to be.
…

As I’ve been saying on other posts, we can find much hope in our young priests and seminarians, and much inspiration and true leadership from our Holy Father. It’s an uphill struggle but we’re making progress.

 

[Sarabande]

We already say a collective “thank you” to God at the end of the Mass when everyone says “Deo gratias / Thanks be to God” in no way does this preclude a private or even communal act of thanksgiving after Mass. But an act of applause is not an act of thanksgiving.

The reason I’ve posted the Holy Father’s words yet again is because some people seem to take issue with them. Applause is simply not an appropriate part of the Mass, even if it does come after the recessional. There are appropriate times and ways to say thank you to the people who work to make the Mass happen, but adding applause to the Mass “is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment.” We don’t come to Mass to be entertained (or at least we should not), we come to worship God in Spirit and in Truth.

It in interresting to note that all of the arguments in favor of applause at Mass have a common theme: that of thanking or recognizing people as if they were entertainers. It’s very telling.

Fr. - You have made very good points about this. I also agree that although the Holy Father’s opinion on applause is not law, it should be highly regarded and seriously contemplated. It’s an opinion of an extremely holy, deep, intellectual and wise man and really should not be disregarded as “just an opinion”. He is the Pope after all.

Speaking as a professional musician, I believe and know that I’m also speaking for many, if not all, of the colleagues I work with in the church music realm, as well as the secular music realm. Many of the church musicians I have had the pleasure of working with, due to the fact that I freelance throughout a number of dioceses will tell you that they do not want or like applause after they have completed “rendering” the music for mass. (I will not use “perform”, because it is often misinterpreted as something else by non-musicians. Whereas church musicians look at the word “perform” like “performing the duties of being a doctor”. Anyway…)

For myself and other musicians, as well as to some non-musicians, music is our main form of prayer to God, with the hope that the music can also help another pray as well. Whenever I sing or hear real music happening, it is a spiritual experience for me because I pray beforehand and during my “rendering”. When the applause happens, it breaks the prayer. For me, it literally tears the sacred from the heavenly realm and forces it back down to the earthly realm. It is embarrassing for me to hear applause, especially after a mass. I know that my organist friends/colleagues especially feel this way because they are sometimes the ones applauded after their organ postludes. Believe me, although they know the people mean well, they do not want it.

Also, whether or not we like to admit it, applause is a natural “high”. When you’ve finished a recital/concert/performance, etc. there is nothing like the applause garnered afterwards. It makes you feel like you are on top of the world, that you did something good, that you know you’ve given pleasure to the audience. But even in the secular music world, there is a time for applause and a time for silence. Why? Because even they know that applause can break the flow, the “spiritual” realm of a recital program, for instance. It takes the listener as well as the performer(s) out of the spiritual zone - as I call it, because for me creating music can be a spiritual experience all around. You know you’ve transcended the earthly when there is an absolute hush and glow after you’ve finished a set of lieder/canzoni/chansons rather than hear the applause immediately.

Why did I even mention the above? To show that no matter how much we’d like to believe that applause is nothing more than just a “thank you” (And, yes, I’m sure that many people who do applaud after mass are meaning well and are just doing it to thank the musician. I don’t think ill of them at all.) it still subconciously or conciously will bring the people and the musicians out of the spiritual realm. It does, unfortunately, focus on the “ego” even if we sincerely mean it to be otherwise. Receiving a verbal “Thank you” after mass or even after a concert, is much more different than receiving a “Thank you” through applause.

I believe because the Holy Father is a trained classical musician, he understands this difference and the affects of applause much more deeply than others. Because of that, I do believe that what he wrote truly should be felt and considered deeply.

 

[fish90]

I have experienced applause during mass.

The first time was during the announcements when the priest says “Let us thank the choir for all the hard work they did.” The congregation applauds and I do not feel that the priest wants this to happen. I asked about this same instance and a reply I got said something to the point that however illicit applause is, this occurrence is hardly a concern of grave liturgical abuse .

The second time I heard applause was where a mass was said for students who received an award. If I remember correctly, this instance is a grave liturgical abuse since the laity were denied participation in the mass in place of the admiration of these students.

I may hear applause after a wedding, a baptism or an ordination. I feel these are not of grave matter, but I could and usually are wrong about such things.

Praise the Lord for the great seminarians coming out today. I believe they will forge a Church without as much liturgy abuse and the crisis of leadership as called by Fr. Corapi will end.

God Bless

 

[Sarabande]

Just in case it got lost in my long post, I do want to note that I do not think that people who applaud mean anything bad or wrong. It is a natural inclination today to just applaud at the drop of a hat - at least that is my experience. When people hear music, even when the performance isn’t that great, they still applaud - at least in the US.

Applause has also sort of become a “nicety” and almost like a Pavlov response. You hear the cadence of a piece of music. You immediately applaud because that is what is expected. You don’t even think about it sometimes. Sometimes, I think that does happen in some parishes where people applaud everything.

Other times I think people are sincerely grateful for what they just heard and are thanking them. I don’t think they realize that it’s inappropriate to do it. That’s why I don’t get upset with them.

 

[tjfitz]

The most recent horrible example of applause at Mass I can think of was the Teddy Kennedy funeral when there was applause after every eulogy. Not only that but the applause was a standing ovation. Really awful.