Appleton teen makes heartbreaking decision to die

[Rau]

…How could a supposedly kind and loving God condemn someone with a disease like this 14 year olds or my aunts or a child with butterfly syndrome and let them suffer a terrible existence on Earth with little to zero quality of life (which I know the Catholic Church doesn’t actually care about) and turn around and say, live with the pain and suck it up because if you end your life you go too Hell. That is NOT loving AT ALL!!!

It is acknowledged that only God can judge the fate of an individual. Whilst we may be able to state what is “objectively” mortally sinful, we cannot know whether an individual fulfils those conditions, nor can we judge the culpability of an individual.

One has to come to grips with the reality of the human condition. Presumably you question the kind and loving God’s motivation not just in the present age, but in all ages past, when debilitating diseases were far more common, treatments far less available, easy drug induced deaths not readily available, and horrible deaths more commonplace. As one who has said s/he believes that the Bible is the Word of God - do you hold that God is mean and vindictive to have delivered his people into such challenging conditions through the ages?

I note you single out the Catholic Church and charge her with having “zero concern for quality of life”. To be fair, do you charge all who oppose euthanasia (which includes other Christian Churches) similarly?

 

[zamyrabyrd]

No, it doesn’t just sound cruel, it is cruel! Unjust, in humane! You try and live in chronic pain or with a terrible, crippling disease and see how it breaks down you psychologically and physically!

I have an aunt with post heretic neuralgia and she lives in pain of around 4 - 6 out of 10, all day, 24 hrs/ 7 days a week, 365 days a year where it feels like a knife is stabbing her in the back. There is no cure, she’s had it for 20 years now and treatments only work so well, until her body develops a tolerance and immunity to the pain relief. There is pain and then there is chronic, ungodly pain at a level I’m positive you have never experienced or seen and believe me, you don’t want too. So too just tell people to suck it up and live in pain is down right cruel and insensitive.

How could a supposedly kind and loving God condemn someone with a disease like this 14 year olds or my aunts or a child with butterfly syndrome and let them suffer a terrible existence on Earth with little to zero quality of life (which I know the Catholic Church doesn’t actually care about) and turn around and say, live with the pain and suck it up because if you end your life you go too Hell. That is NOT loving AT ALL!!!

I often think about the above as well and have a very hard time with it. People don’t imagine what the psychological consequences are from living with abnormal situations, whether physical or social unless they go through them personally. Perspective on things certainly is different coming from pain or environmental dysfunctionality. I have more or less both but have some hope on the physical end. The problem is being worn down as from sandpaper.
Optimism is almost impossible so you think nothing good can ever come out of anything since the result is almost always the same: the pits. One’s view on religion is skewed as for just about everything else. A gap is formed between the thinking mind and the acting one. The truth is, in order to live you need good experiences as reinforcement and incentive to go on. I really don’t know what to say…

 

[Rosebud77]

No, it doesn’t just sound cruel, it is cruel! Unjust, in humane! You try and live in chronic pain or with a terrible, crippling disease and see how it breaks down you psychologically and physically!

I have an aunt with post heretic neuralgia and she lives in pain of around 4 - 6 out of 10, all day, 24 hrs/ 7 days a week, 365 days a year where it feels like a knife is stabbing her in the back. There is no cure, she’s had it for 20 years now and treatments only work so well, until her body develops a tolerance and immunity to the pain relief. There is pain and then there is chronic, ungodly pain at a level I’m positive you have never experienced or seen and believe me, you don’t want too. So too just tell people to suck it up and live in pain is down right cruel and insensitive.

How could a supposedly kind and loving God condemn someone with a disease like this 14 year olds or my aunts or a child with butterfly syndrome and let them suffer a terrible existence on Earth with little to zero quality of life (which I know the Catholic Church doesn’t actually care about) and turn around and say, live with the pain and suck it up because if you end your life you go too Hell. That is NOT loving AT ALL!!!

For your rare and compassionate words, blessings and thanks.

 

[Bonnie]

No, it doesn’t just sound cruel, it is cruel! Unjust, in humane! You try and live in chronic pain or with a terrible, crippling disease and see how it breaks down you psychologically and physically!

I understand, having been thru that for a number of years. Thank God I was able to get relief from the pain, but way too many can’t. Some people are less merciful than God when it comes to situations like this because they don’t have first-hand knowledge of what constant pain does to a person.

It’s not a sin to refuse treatment. I’ve made it it clear to my family (& so has my husband) that I don’t want any extraordinary medical help when I come to the end of the road. That includes so-called “nutrition” and hydration, too, as it’s normal for the body to not want either when it’s shutting down. I’ve even thought - only somewhat jokingly - of having DNR tattooed on my chest.

 

[fladreamer]

No, it doesn’t just sound cruel, it is cruel! Unjust, in humane! You try and live in chronic pain or with a terrible, crippling disease and see how it breaks down you psychologically and physically!

I have an aunt with post heretic neuralgia and she lives in pain of around 4 - 6 out of 10, all day, 24 hrs/ 7 days a week, 365 days a year where it feels like a knife is stabbing her in the back. There is no cure, she’s had it for 20 years now and treatments only work so well, until her body develops a tolerance and immunity to the pain relief. There is pain and then there is chronic, ungodly pain at a level I’m positive you have never experienced or seen and believe me, you don’t want too. So too just tell people to suck it up and live in pain is down right cruel and insensitive.

How could a supposedly kind and loving God condemn someone with a disease like this 14 year olds or my aunts or a child with butterfly syndrome and let them suffer a terrible existence on Earth with little to zero quality of life (which I know the Catholic Church doesn’t actually care about) and turn around and say, live with the pain and suck it up because if you end your life you go too Hell. That is NOT loving AT ALL!!!

In the final analysis, if the catechism is to be trusted, God has the power to destroy someone eternally, to torture them unceasingly for ever and ever with no end in sight. If the catechism is to be trusted, the bare minimum criterion for entry into irrevocable and eternal hell is one unrepented
mortal sin. So God’s justice is one sin (or more) for an eternity of torment, torture and hopelessness. In light of that, we have to be very careful saying what is sin, what is not sin. If God deems that the use of the ventilator is not extraordinary means, then what? If I got to make the rules, I’d graciously offer everybody who has lost the will to live and/or is in unbearable, incurable pain the prerogative to determine whether to go on living or not, but we have to keep in mind that God can destroy both the body and the soul eternally, and he won’t hesitate to do it for one unconfessed or unrepented-of sin. i’m not ascribing attributes to God, I’m just stating what the catechism states. Many people have died thinking they were headed to a state of peace, joy and freedom from pain only to realize they’re in hell. God’s ways are perfect and above our ways. We see with limited eyes, intellect, perspective, God sees things perfectly and clearly. His justice is far and away, infinitely superior to our human justice.

The way you deal with someone who’s been known to bury people alive is drastically different from the way you treat someone who is meek as a lamb, shy and a push-over.

 

[fladreamer]

In the final analysis, if the catechism is to be trusted, God has the power to destroy someone eternally, to torture them unceasingly for ever and ever with no end in sight. If the catechism is to be trusted, the bare minimum criterion for entry into irrevocable and eternal hell is one unrepented
mortal sin. So God’s justice is one sin (or more) for an eternity of torment, torture and hopelessness. In light of that, we have to be very careful saying what is sin, what is not sin. If God deems that the use of the ventilator is not extraordinary means, then what? If I got to make the rules, I’d let everybody who has lost the will to live and/or is in unbearable, incurable pain the prerogative to determine whether to go on living or not, but we have to keep in mind that God can destroy both the body and the soul eternally, and he won’t hesitate to do it for one unconfessed or unrepented-of sin. i’m not ascribing attributes to God, I’m just stating what the catechism states. Many people have died thinking they were headed to a state of peace, joy and freedom from pain only to realize they’re in hell.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

These situations are horrible and none of us really know how we would handle prolonged uncontrolled pain without experiencing it. It’s hard to have hope for degenerative conditions like this and it seems inevitable that these lives will end with a difficult moral dilemma as to how far medicine can go.

 

[Rau]

These situations are horrible and none of us really know how we would handle prolonged uncontrolled pain without experiencing it. It’s hard to have hope for degenerative conditions like this and it seems inevitable that these lives will end with a difficult moral dilemma as to how far medicine can go.

Medicine can (ethically) go as far as administering sufficient pain killers to bring the pain under control, even if that risks death.

 

[Bonnie]

So God’s justice is one sin (or more) for an eternity of torment, torture and hopelessness. In light of that, we have to be very careful saying what is sin, what is not sin.

But fortunately for us, God is mercy. It is only some people - both Catholics & non-Catholics - who insist on a merciless God.

 

[fladreamer]

But fortunately for us, God is mercy. It is only some people - both Catholics & non-Catholics - who insist on a merciless God.

I try to stay away from attributes and stick to facts. I don’t know if it’s merciful or merciless that a person who dies with but one unconfessed mortal sin(and I’m sure you are well aware that a mortal sin does not have to be murder or some heinous, despicable act) should be in hell. We’re talking about a one-way ticket to eternity here, no turning back once the last breath is taken. If the Catechism is to be believed, for God whether a baby dies hours before he was baptized and hours after baptism makes one huge, galactic difference. We know for fact that a baptized baby who dies goes straight to Heaven, a baby, who through no fault of his own, dies without baptism, (…) '‘there are theological and liturgical reasons to hope that infants who die without baptism may be saved and brought into eternal happiness, even if there is not an explicit teaching on this question found in Revelation.’ Given what appears to be God’s character, betting on God’s mercy, as humans view mercy,may be a very foolish thing to do. One would be committing the sin of presumption. Again, sticking to facts and Church’s documents. You can’t get it wrong with God, the stakes are just too high.

 

[njlisa]

A Catholic Guide to End-of-Life Critical Decisions: Advance Directions
Daughters of Charity Health System

This paragraph is found in the document:

*It may be decided that the use of a ventilator for
a particular patient becomes extraordinary or
disproportionate because it no longer achieves
its perceived outcome.
*

Find this whole document at this link.:

rcda.org/Offices/pastoral_care_ministry/pdf/Advance_Directive_Guide.English_only.pdf

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I try to stay away from attributes and stick to facts. I don’t know if it’s merciful or merciless that a person who dies with but one unconfessed mortal sin(and I’m sure you are well aware that a mortal sin does not have to be murder or some heinous, despicable act) should be in hell. We’re talking about a one-way ticket to eternity here, no turning back once the last breath is taken. If the Catechism is to be believed, for God whether a baby dies hours before he was baptized and hours after baptism makes one huge, galactic difference. We know for fact that a baptized baby who dies goes straight to Heaven, a baby, who through no fault of his own, dies without baptism, (…) '‘there are theological and liturgical reasons to hope that infants who die without baptism may be saved and brought into eternal happiness, even if there is not an explicit teaching on this question found in Revelation.’ Given what appears to be God’s character, betting on God’s mercy, as humans view mercy,may be a very foolish thing to do. One would be committing the sin of presumption. Again, sticking to facts and Church’s documents. You can’t get it wrong with God, the stakes are just too high.

Yes, let’s stick to facts and avoid suggesting God might destroy someone and torture them unceasingly for ever and ever with no end in sight. You make it sound like God is just itching to smite someone. God doesn’t torture anyone. BTW, care to respond to my post above? #19

 

[njlisa]

I’m just limiting this comment to my experience. I have seven herniated discs in my back. The pain was horrible. I finally got the right mixture of meds that completely killed my pain. The my pain management doctor decided to reduce my pain meds. He has his reasons. But I had enjoyed 3 1/2 months without pain. So there’s no guarantee that doctors will keep a person in chronic pain completely without pain.

Sadly, I am also afflicted with medication-resistant major depression. So, my future may be very bleak. All I can do is surrender my pain to God. It’s not easy to do, because I had been pain free.

I’m not looking for pity. I’m just letting you know that pain reduction can be a myth.

I hope this girl finds the strength to withstand whatever the future hold for here.

 

[fladreamer]

Yes, let’s stick to facts and avoid suggesting God might destroy someone and torture them unceasingly for ever and ever with no end in sight. You make it sound like God is just itching to smite someone. God doesn’t torture anyone. BTW, care to respond to my post above? #19

‘‘Thus an act or omission which, of itself or by intention, causes death in order to eliminate suffering constitutes a murder gravely contrary to the dignity of the human person and to the respect due to the living God, his Creator. The error of judgment into which one can fall in good faith does not change the nature of this murderous act, which must always be forbidden and excluded.’’

A ventilator may or may not be an extraordinary means depending on the situation. If you have a terminal cancer patient with a month left to live if he’s assisted by a ventilator, the ventilator just slightly postpones the person"s imminent death. In the young girl’s case, removing the ventilator cuts her life short since her death is not imminent.

‘‘God does not torture anyone’’ is pure semantics. He alone has the power to destroy someone body and soul eternally. If God is merciful it’s in the way he tolerates someone’s transgressions and waits for this person to confess his sins, acknowledge Christ and repent. Post mortem, God is an exacting judge. God is probably not itching to smite anyone, he wills that everyone be saved, but make no mistake about it, he may not be itching to smite but he won’t hesitate to smite anyone who’s reached the age of reason (around 7 years old) who dies with one or more unconfessed mortal sin(s). You may not like what i’m saying but I’m theologically sound.

Hence the reason why we should approach euthanasia and assisted-suicide with ‘‘fear and trembling’’.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

‘‘Thus an act or omission which, of itself or by intention, causes death in order to eliminate suffering constitutes a murder gravely contrary to the dignity of the human person and to the respect due to the living God, his Creator. The error of judgment into which one can fall in good faith does not change the nature of this murderous act, which must always be forbidden and excluded.’’

A ventilator may or may not be an extraordinary means depending on the situation. If you have a terminal cancer patient with a month left to live if he’s assisted by a ventilator, the ventilator just slightly postpones the person"s imminent death. In the young girl’s case, removing the ventilator cuts her life short since her death is not imminent.

‘‘God does not torture anyone’’ is pure semantics. He alone has the power to destroy someone body and soul eternally. If God is merciful it’s in the way he tolerates someone’s transgressions and waits for this person to confess his sins, acknowledge Christ and repent. Post mortem, God is an exacting judge. God is probably not itching to smite anyone, he wills that everyone be saved, but make no mistake about it, he may not be itching to smite but he won’t hesitate to smite anyone who’s reached the age of reason (around 7 years old) who dies with one or more unconfessed mortal sin(s). You may not like what i’m saying but I’m theologically sound.

Hence the reason why we should approach euthanasia and assisted-suicide with ‘‘fear and trembling’’.

The vent is postponing her imminent death; she’s not going to live another 80+ years… She doesn’t have an illness or injury that temporarily necessitates a ventilator, whicht is what you quoted above above is referring to. Did you read the article? Did you read it prior to your first post? Because it doesn’t seem like you are discussing the same person and situation.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I’m just limiting this comment to my experience. I have seven herniated discs in my back. The pain was horrible. I finally got the right mixture of meds that completely killed my pain. The my pain management doctor decided to reduce my pain meds. He has his reasons. But I had enjoyed 3 1/2 months without pain. So there’s no guarantee that doctors will keep a person in chronic pain completely without pain.

Sadly, I am also afflicted with medication-resistant major depression. So, my future may be very bleak. All I can do is surrender my pain to God. It’s not easy to do, because I had been pain free.

I’m not looking for pity. I’m just letting you know that pain reduction can be a myth.

I hope this girl finds the strength to withstand whatever the future hold for here.

I’m sorry you are in so much pain, physical and mental. You are in my prayers.

 

[fladreamer]

The vent is postponing her imminent death; she’s not going to live another 80+ years… She doesn’t have an illness or injury that temporarily necessitates a ventilator, whicht is what you quoted above above is referring to. Did you read the article? Did you read it prior to your first post? Because it doesn’t seem like you are discussing the same person and situation.

I know her life expectancy is not 80 years, but she (her case) doesn’t compare to an elderly person in palliative care or a young person in the very last stage of a terminal disease. Thing is I’m very aware of hell. You can’t read the Catechism and come away with the idea that we human being enjoy a great deal of moral latitude. Stuff most people wouldn’t give a second thought to can and do have eternal consequences. If I ran the show, she could have the prom and then peacefully die and I would welcome her with : ‘‘Well-done good and faithful servant’’. I wish it was that plain and simple but it’s not. How does God deal with someone who intentionally cuts their life short, when God could have used them for another 10 or 15 years? God takes sin supremely seriously.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

People need to read the details of this story before judging. This is not a case of suicide. This is not, in any way, comparable to Terry Schiavo. A mechanical ventilator is not ordinary care.

 

[njlisa]

I’m sorry you are in so much pain, physical and mental. You are in my prayers.

Thank you so much. I appreciate all prayers.

​

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I know her life expectancy is not 80 years, but she (her case) doesn’t compare to an elderly person in palliative care or a young person in the very last stage of a terminal disease. Thing is I’m very aware of hell. You can’t read the Catechism and come away with the idea that we human being enjoy a great deal of moral latitude. Stuff most people wouldn’t give a second thought to can and do have eternal consequences. If I ran the show, she could have the prom and then peacefully die and I would welcome her with : ‘‘Well-done good and faithful servant’’. I wish it was that plain and simple but it’s not. How does God deal with someone who intentionally cuts their life short, when God could have used them for another 10 or 15 years? God takes sin supremely seriously.

She would have died a long time ago if not for intrusive medical intervention. She has continued treatment for the sake of her family but now:

DDiscontinuing medical procedures that are burdensome, dangerous, extraordinary, or disproportionate to the expected outcome can be legitimate; it is the refusal of “over-zealous” treatment. Here one does not will to cause death; one’s inability to impede it is merely accepted.

Her pain is chronic, spiking to the 8-10 on the pain scale and the painkillers are damaging her organs even while they do not relieve her pain. Her treatment is definitely disproportionate to the outcome, is damaging…her situation represents all four of the criteria I bolded.