A
Ashurie
Guest
Same here <3
- Status
S
spinoza1111
Guest
Perhaps overly skimpy dress for women, that does not flatter the larger woman, has a simple and brutal explanation.
Let us say that I’m a designer of women’s sweaters and blouses for manufacture in sweatshop conditions in Asia. I am under the gun to save every dollar.
Naturally, I will sell the women on two ideas:
(1) It is fashionable to be thin
(2) It is fashionable to reveal naked flesh
People of Irish ancestry often are passive-aggressive over body image, perhaps memories of the Famine come into play when in the traditional large Irish Catholic family, fat girls are teased out of fear that one will be the sibling who “eats too much”, and so the ideal creates unhappiness, and fashion. Even as a boy I would starve myself before Communion finding holiness in austerity, out of rebellion against Fifties culture.
If I can get women to wear a sweater that rides up, creating what a practicing Catholic would call an occasion of sin and that I would call eye candy, I can literally save millions not only on fabric but also on labor time.
Guys who are not pimps simply refuse to wear shirt sizes too small because they don’t wish to “moon” their wives while fixing the plumbing when the shirt pops out of the pants. Shirts and pants that are too small are uncomfortable, and men who know how to dress like gentlemen always go one size larger than they need. The finer men’s establishments like Brooks and Jos. Banks always direct the suppliers of men’s clothes to be generous on the fabric.
The sleeve of the man’s dress shirt must touch the bone of the forearm and leave enough space for an elaborate watch with GPS in the event our boy gets lost. The collar must have about .1-.25 inch of give to accomodate a tie; this is why it is a myth that “dress shirt with tie is too hot”: a gentleman knows how to dress so as to be cool even in the jungle.
Don Draper in Mad Men is a beau ideal of this.
Guys dress in Sartre’s terms as For Themselves whereas women not only must please lecherous men (who as practising Catholics give the lie, in my view, to the very idea that it’s even possible to obey Rome’s injunction “not to entertain” sexual thoughts) but enrich the makers of their clothes by wearing clothes that simply don’t have enough fabric. Women dress For Another.
But far be it from the Vatican to take the side of women. There are many men buried in the Vatican, but only four women, one of whom was Queen Christina of Sweden.
She was the daughter of the Protestant “Lion of the North”, Gustavus Adolphus Vasa, who kicked some serious butt during the Thirty Year’s War but was killed in turn at the Battle of Lutzen.
An amazingly well-educated woman, she pulled Sweden out of the war on the sage counsel of her mentor Oxenstierna. She preferred man’s attire because of the better fit, especially for the active pursuits which she loved, such as riding and fencing.
She converted to Catholicism.
She engaged Rene Descartes to tutor her but sadly, she liked to ride at 4 in the morning in the arctic winter whereas Rene Descartes, a sensible sort, liked to sleep until noon. Her regime killed the great philosopher, but she had the grace to mourn.
When women wise up, Catholic or not, they tend to adopt man-tailored clothes for modesty and comfort. Exhibit A would be La Pucelle, Jehan, Joan of Arc, the mighty Saint of France.
There’s a beautiful statur of St. Joan of Arc in the Louvre’s sculpture court, after which I’ve made several copies when in Paris. She is dressed not only for modesty (a given in the 15th century) but for warmth and hard work, for in “Jeanne d’Arc Ecoutant”, she is hearing the Virgin and St. Catherine whilst about her tasks. She has a game bag for gathering rabbits that she quickly and mercifully kills with an expert hand.
No fashion designer, less concerned with fashion than with money, has sold her on the idea that she needs short skirts.
Edward G. Nilges, “Joan of Arc Listening to Her Voices, After Charles Rude”, June 2008, pencil, pen, walk and digital colorization and enhancement. A4 size.
Let us say that I’m a designer of women’s sweaters and blouses for manufacture in sweatshop conditions in Asia. I am under the gun to save every dollar.
Naturally, I will sell the women on two ideas:
(1) It is fashionable to be thin
(2) It is fashionable to reveal naked flesh
People of Irish ancestry often are passive-aggressive over body image, perhaps memories of the Famine come into play when in the traditional large Irish Catholic family, fat girls are teased out of fear that one will be the sibling who “eats too much”, and so the ideal creates unhappiness, and fashion. Even as a boy I would starve myself before Communion finding holiness in austerity, out of rebellion against Fifties culture.
If I can get women to wear a sweater that rides up, creating what a practicing Catholic would call an occasion of sin and that I would call eye candy, I can literally save millions not only on fabric but also on labor time.
Guys who are not pimps simply refuse to wear shirt sizes too small because they don’t wish to “moon” their wives while fixing the plumbing when the shirt pops out of the pants. Shirts and pants that are too small are uncomfortable, and men who know how to dress like gentlemen always go one size larger than they need. The finer men’s establishments like Brooks and Jos. Banks always direct the suppliers of men’s clothes to be generous on the fabric.
The sleeve of the man’s dress shirt must touch the bone of the forearm and leave enough space for an elaborate watch with GPS in the event our boy gets lost. The collar must have about .1-.25 inch of give to accomodate a tie; this is why it is a myth that “dress shirt with tie is too hot”: a gentleman knows how to dress so as to be cool even in the jungle.
Don Draper in Mad Men is a beau ideal of this.
Guys dress in Sartre’s terms as For Themselves whereas women not only must please lecherous men (who as practising Catholics give the lie, in my view, to the very idea that it’s even possible to obey Rome’s injunction “not to entertain” sexual thoughts) but enrich the makers of their clothes by wearing clothes that simply don’t have enough fabric. Women dress For Another.
But far be it from the Vatican to take the side of women. There are many men buried in the Vatican, but only four women, one of whom was Queen Christina of Sweden.
She was the daughter of the Protestant “Lion of the North”, Gustavus Adolphus Vasa, who kicked some serious butt during the Thirty Year’s War but was killed in turn at the Battle of Lutzen.
An amazingly well-educated woman, she pulled Sweden out of the war on the sage counsel of her mentor Oxenstierna. She preferred man’s attire because of the better fit, especially for the active pursuits which she loved, such as riding and fencing.
She converted to Catholicism.
She engaged Rene Descartes to tutor her but sadly, she liked to ride at 4 in the morning in the arctic winter whereas Rene Descartes, a sensible sort, liked to sleep until noon. Her regime killed the great philosopher, but she had the grace to mourn.
When women wise up, Catholic or not, they tend to adopt man-tailored clothes for modesty and comfort. Exhibit A would be La Pucelle, Jehan, Joan of Arc, the mighty Saint of France.
There’s a beautiful statur of St. Joan of Arc in the Louvre’s sculpture court, after which I’ve made several copies when in Paris. She is dressed not only for modesty (a given in the 15th century) but for warmth and hard work, for in “Jeanne d’Arc Ecoutant”, she is hearing the Virgin and St. Catherine whilst about her tasks. She has a game bag for gathering rabbits that she quickly and mercifully kills with an expert hand.
No fashion designer, less concerned with fashion than with money, has sold her on the idea that she needs short skirts.
Edward G. Nilges, “Joan of Arc Listening to Her Voices, After Charles Rude”, June 2008, pencil, pen, walk and digital colorization and enhancement. A4 size.
S
spinoza1111
Guest
Wow, lotta bits in my image of Joan…sorry. More images reflecting a Catholic background from a non-practising Catholic are at www.spinoza1111.wordpress.com. Most are work-safe, child-safe, and observant-Catholic safe apart from a post labeled “The Impertinence of Actaeon”. If you now what happened to Actaeon, and serve him right, you know that The Impertinence is “art”, but also a possible occasion of sin in the view of many Catholics.
S
spinoza1111
Guest
I would also remark on something Catholics may not wish to discuss.
It is the way in which capitalism always supersedes religion even for the observant.
Karl Marx (the old monster) observed that both Sabbath observance and modesty were waived for workers in the industrial revolution. And to afford parochial school, Catholic women will in my experience work in immodest occupations such as hostess or dancer. The hierarchy seems only marginally more concerned with that form of poverty that forces women to violate their religious beliefs than Protestant pastors, who in my opinion substitute entirely too much God-walloping for eleemosynary efforts.
I think the Church has converged somewhat with Protestantism in this regard. When I was in third grade, in St. Mark’s School in Gary, Indiana, I would regularly see bums knock on the door of the convent for a handout, out the window of our classroom.
Today, “bums” are the “homeless” and would be, I believe, directed to a formal soup kitchen. In the past, whole religious orders were founded to answer Marx but today relief by religious orders has declined right along with membership.
Likewise, when I was a kid, Sabbatarianism (closure of shops on Sunday) was the norm and druggists needed a special dispensation from the local church to open their shops for necessary emergency trade. Today, Americans expect to shop on Sunday. But to my knowledge, the phrase “occasion of sin” is not used to refer to the situation that obtains when the family goes out to a fancy restaurant to celebrate Easter, and the harried and overworked staff must hustle despite the fact that as Catholics OR Protestants, they are violating a rule…one that has saved the lives and sanity of working people throughout history.
Interestingly, in China (Hong Kong) where I live now, many families (but not of course shops) do keep the Sabbath, and not always from Christian conviction. The Confucian emphasis on family means that while both parents will work a six day week (the norm in Hong Kong from a pre-war, Victorian and British tradition) the family will go hiking and kite flying on the island where I live.
In Fiji, where I’ve also lived, the Methodists are the dominant church and Sabbatarianism is the law.
One stumbling block in Catholic Sabbatarianism is the fact that traditionally, an exemption was made (at least by the priests in my high school) for intellectual and therefore non-servile work. Most Catholics of the middle class today will do their taxes or practise the piano and even some forms of “servile” work, if different from the work of the rest of the week, can help the soul: Louis MacNeice, in his poem “Sunday Morning” writes:
Man’s heart expands to tinker with his car
For this is Sunday morning, Fate’s great bazaar;
Regard these means as ends, concentrate on this Now.
My Sabbatarianism therefore is “don’t spend a dime”, which avoids being an “occasion of sin” for a shop-clerk but allows me to clean house, paint pictures, and help my neighbor. This reprobate wonders if the hierarchy of the Church couldn’t just command the faithful not to spend money on Sunday, without exception, save in real emergency. Gas up your car and get groceries on Saturday night.
It sure saves a lot of money! And it would help the Earth.
But, I digress. Here is art based on a Catholic upbringing, celebrating the life and death of my uncle, who as a German American Catholic led Japanese-American troops in World War II and was killed in a key offensive at Mt. Folgorito in the Po Valley. If my art or digression annoys, I apologize and will desist.
It is the way in which capitalism always supersedes religion even for the observant.
Karl Marx (the old monster) observed that both Sabbath observance and modesty were waived for workers in the industrial revolution. And to afford parochial school, Catholic women will in my experience work in immodest occupations such as hostess or dancer. The hierarchy seems only marginally more concerned with that form of poverty that forces women to violate their religious beliefs than Protestant pastors, who in my opinion substitute entirely too much God-walloping for eleemosynary efforts.
I think the Church has converged somewhat with Protestantism in this regard. When I was in third grade, in St. Mark’s School in Gary, Indiana, I would regularly see bums knock on the door of the convent for a handout, out the window of our classroom.
Today, “bums” are the “homeless” and would be, I believe, directed to a formal soup kitchen. In the past, whole religious orders were founded to answer Marx but today relief by religious orders has declined right along with membership.
Likewise, when I was a kid, Sabbatarianism (closure of shops on Sunday) was the norm and druggists needed a special dispensation from the local church to open their shops for necessary emergency trade. Today, Americans expect to shop on Sunday. But to my knowledge, the phrase “occasion of sin” is not used to refer to the situation that obtains when the family goes out to a fancy restaurant to celebrate Easter, and the harried and overworked staff must hustle despite the fact that as Catholics OR Protestants, they are violating a rule…one that has saved the lives and sanity of working people throughout history.
Interestingly, in China (Hong Kong) where I live now, many families (but not of course shops) do keep the Sabbath, and not always from Christian conviction. The Confucian emphasis on family means that while both parents will work a six day week (the norm in Hong Kong from a pre-war, Victorian and British tradition) the family will go hiking and kite flying on the island where I live.
In Fiji, where I’ve also lived, the Methodists are the dominant church and Sabbatarianism is the law.
One stumbling block in Catholic Sabbatarianism is the fact that traditionally, an exemption was made (at least by the priests in my high school) for intellectual and therefore non-servile work. Most Catholics of the middle class today will do their taxes or practise the piano and even some forms of “servile” work, if different from the work of the rest of the week, can help the soul: Louis MacNeice, in his poem “Sunday Morning” writes:
Man’s heart expands to tinker with his car
For this is Sunday morning, Fate’s great bazaar;
Regard these means as ends, concentrate on this Now.
My Sabbatarianism therefore is “don’t spend a dime”, which avoids being an “occasion of sin” for a shop-clerk but allows me to clean house, paint pictures, and help my neighbor. This reprobate wonders if the hierarchy of the Church couldn’t just command the faithful not to spend money on Sunday, without exception, save in real emergency. Gas up your car and get groceries on Saturday night.
It sure saves a lot of money! And it would help the Earth.
But, I digress. Here is art based on a Catholic upbringing, celebrating the life and death of my uncle, who as a German American Catholic led Japanese-American troops in World War II and was killed in a key offensive at Mt. Folgorito in the Po Valley. If my art or digression annoys, I apologize and will desist.
S
spunjalebi
Guest
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Sorry, had to throw that in there
Sorry, had to throw that in there
H
HAnne
Guest
LOVE it - but I’d look like a Playboy Bunny…http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_q2h7mR462...y+Churidar+Pajama+Dress+-+Party+Wear+2010.jpg
Sorry, had to throw that in there
That’s the problem for those of us with large chests - trying not to “reveal cleavage” is a ridiculous concept. No matter how much fabric you use to cover, the message is still right there…
S
spunjalebi
Guest
This one is higher cut:
I know what you mean. I too have to contend with that issue but unless you’re going to bind yourself down like the gals of the 1920’s did, that’s just the way it is. People know that women have breasts.
And I also wanted to note-- I don’t think it’s necessary for Catholic women to adopt a certain “uniform” of dress in order to show others that they are owned by God. Our hearts should be owned by God first and through that we would be compelled to cover our bodies using modest dress. I personally have no inclinations to wear an abaya or dress hijab. Not to sound rude, but if I had wanted to dress that way I would have become Islamic. And from what I’ve learned showing hair isn’t supposed to be a bad thing. There is a reason why it’s called our “crown of glory.”
.jpg)
I know what you mean. I too have to contend with that issue but unless you’re going to bind yourself down like the gals of the 1920’s did, that’s just the way it is. People know that women have breasts.
And I also wanted to note-- I don’t think it’s necessary for Catholic women to adopt a certain “uniform” of dress in order to show others that they are owned by God. Our hearts should be owned by God first and through that we would be compelled to cover our bodies using modest dress. I personally have no inclinations to wear an abaya or dress hijab. Not to sound rude, but if I had wanted to dress that way I would have become Islamic. And from what I’ve learned showing hair isn’t supposed to be a bad thing. There is a reason why it’s called our “crown of glory.”
T
Thomas_Casey
Guest
I’m going to ask everyone to keep the pictures small. Make sure that they do not have advertisements attached.
Thank You
Thomas Casey
Moderator
Thank You
Thomas Casey
Moderator
S
spunjalebi
Guest
Oops…my bad!
S
spinoza1111
Guest
My bad more than spunjalebi, whose pictures reminded me of the lovely ladies of Dubai, floating by in long and modest robes. As an artist I found them beautiful and because of their modesty I didn’t have to deal with lecherous feelings.
I will endeavor in future to reduce the picture sizes.
I will endeavor in future to reduce the picture sizes.
H
HAnne
Guest
I like the second one even better - but I’m a sucker for a sweetheart style neckline - so that explains it. 
Lately I envy anyone who doesn’t look like they’re wearing their pajamas - I’ve been cleaning house for a week straight due to the holidays and seldom get out of my cleaning clothes!! lol
Lately I envy anyone who doesn’t look like they’re wearing their pajamas - I’ve been cleaning house for a week straight due to the holidays and seldom get out of my cleaning clothes!!
lol
P
PetersKeys
Guest
actually, let me teach you, since you don’t understand. pants are originally mens clothing, came from originally men’s TROUSERS, and go as far back as the 6th century BC. Especially in horse riders among the middle east and trousers were parts of many tunics, depending on the tunic. hence men, and many of them actually, did wear trousers in those days, especially horse riders. We clearly see that trousers are a mens clothing originally and were created as a tool to help men gain dexterity in their work labor. Since women did not do work labor trousers were not created originally for women. And women are not the wear what PERTAINS to a man…it was taboo for women to wear trousers. It was only in the 1970s, that trousers became acceptable for women to wear. In fact when women wore trousers it was considered cross dressing in most of history…
Pants were so unnatural on women that “In 1800, a decree by the police prefecture banned women from wearing trousers unless they had specific authorization,” says the historian Christine Bard, author of a new book on women’s “conquest” of the right to wear pants
The only time when women started wearing trousers were during the times in the 19th century went the rebellious pit brow girls wanted to scandalize Victorian femininity by wearing trousers. So, if you wanna identify with those manly women, by all means.
Women wearing pants were never an issue of femininity or wanting to follow God. It was a symbol of rebellion and feminism and pants were an issue they could use to forward their agenda.
P
PetersKeys
Guest
But God himself says in scripture to DRESS modesty. St. Paul says women should cover. Look at the Virgin Mary. Does she look like she has the attitude of “I can wear whatever I want to?”… St. Theresa? St. Catherine??
And where do you think the concept of the hijab came from? its a christo-judiac tradition. The only difference is that it is more prominent in Islamic areas is because they do not allow western feminism and immodesty creep into their society as easily as the US and Europe does. A woman’s modesty is guarded. Just look at the Coptic Orthodox and eastern-Catholics in Egypt. They dress just like the Muslims do and keep the code of modesty as a strict importance…In fact Muslims say their code of modesty is even more strict than the Muslim populations.
L
Lost_Wanderer
Guest
Why aren’t you Muslim then? I’m serious. Why aren’t you?
Modesty is tied to standards of sexiness and beauty. And standards of sexiness and beauty vary from culture to culture. It’s a proven fact. What’s sexy to a Bushman is obviously different from what’s sexy to an Eskimo.
However, this is far from the real fact that so-called “pro-modesty” folks fail to take to heart. What you wear may change your body but it will never change what’s in your heart. It will never change who you are. If anything else, it just hides it. Want another interesting fact? Those who hide their hearts underneath their appearances and clothing are actually the most potential of deceivers. Just ask Satan. After all, he’s an expert at posing as something he isn’t: An angel of light.
Strange thing is I learned all this from having part-time costume designers for siblings.
L
Lost_Wanderer
Guest
Hmm… well, setting historical accuracy aside, if we’re going to talk about artist renditions of St. Joan (who is actually one of the few rare saints I hold in a sort of warrior-like respect), I’d rather see her in her armor.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
(To concerned mods: Sorry, couldn’t find the original cover art so I just tried to keep it small.
)
T
Thyme
Guest
If you’re not dressed to sexually attract anyone, then it doesn’t matter what you wear.
I don’t like wearing skirts because I don’t like my legs. Long skirts look old fashioned in my opinion and aren’t good for the walk to universtiy, which is almost always flooded.
There’s nothing wrong with trousers/pants. If you feel they cling too much, you can wear a long tunic-like top, or get smart, skinny jeans and wear a short dress over them.
I like these:
http://cdn2.lookbook.nu/files/looks/medium/259144_110709..jpg?1247503391
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
I don’t like wearing skirts because I don’t like my legs. Long skirts look old fashioned in my opinion and aren’t good for the walk to universtiy, which is almost always flooded.
There’s nothing wrong with trousers/pants. If you feel they cling too much, you can wear a long tunic-like top, or get smart, skinny jeans and wear a short dress over them.
I like these:
http://cdn2.lookbook.nu/files/looks/medium/259144_110709..jpg?1247503391
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
S
spinoza1111
Guest
Go to spinoza1111.wordpress.com/2010/09/13/stella-splendens/ to see a film still of Joan in Armor. I think it’s the best.
T
ThereseOfRoses
Guest
Both men and women of my ethnic heritage were wearing what you could consider “pants” or “trousers” since early OT times. However, since you seem to be only referring to the cultures of Europe and the Biblical lands, when I specifically stated other cultures, I can see that you have no interest but to try and “prove your point”, instead of listening to what I and others have said about Indian, Asian, Indonesian, and other lands from the East and what the traditional clothing there is. I hardly think I’m basing my wearing of modest pants on the early Victorian feminists. Please don’t assume to know why I and other women choose not to wear long skirts 100% of the time…I can only speak for me, but I would take a guess that others are not doing so “in rebellion”, either.
I’m sure it would shock you, but there is a well-know, ages-old Indonesian image of the Blessed Mother and Baby Jesus in traditional Eastern apparel and guess what? She’s in a long tunic and pants!! It’s modest, it’s just not the tall, blonde, blue-eyed Mary you are used to seeing.
I am done even responding to arrogant posts on here from people who “assume” to know what women should and shouldn’t wear as far as pants and refuse to understand that there are cultures out there beyond Europe and the Middle East.
E
edwest2
Guest
B
Battle_Warrior
Guest
First off, BOTH women AND men need to be modest. NOT JUST THE WOMEN!!! I have seen men go around shirtless and their pants falling down!!! If I wanted to wear a veil, I would have moved to the middle east!!! I will stick to an old pair of jeans any day of the week!!!
Rebecca
Rebecca
- Status