Aquinas and Modern Physics

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But what is your point?
I have read some posts on CAF that say that everything has a purpose. God is eternal and yet He chose a very specific point in time to create the universe. Was this choice purely random or was there some reason to choose 13.8 billion years ago instead of 17.3 billion years ago?
Metaphysics deals with first principles including causes, time and space so should it not have an answer to such questions?
 
What do I think?

I think there are far too many short videos.

This world is a world of doubt, as it is still under the power of the prince of darkness. He sows the seeds of doubt and confusion. Just as God uses the interwebz, so does the evil one.

Stick with what has been revealed and what is proven true. Stick with what edifies, what builds hope. Assumptions and options are worth what you pay for them - including mine.
 
I have read some posts on CAF that say that everything has a purpose. God is eternal and yet He chose a very specific point in time to create the universe. Was this choice purely random or was there some reason to choose 13.8 billion years ago instead of 17.3 billion years ago?
Metaphysics deals with first principles including causes, time and space so should it not have an answer to such questions?
If you are asking me whether God has a purpose for everything He does, then the answer is “Yes.” If you are asking me whether I know His purpose for everything He does, then the answer is “No.”

Metaphysics is a branch of philosophy, and it deals with knowledge that can be attained by reason alone, without the aid of divine revelation. Some of God’s hidden purposes may not be possible for us to attain without divine revelation; these would be outside the scope of metaphysics. But there are some that we can learn by studying the world around us. In fact, we often learn God’s purposes in the world, not just by metaphysics or philosophy, but by science. The problem is, it sometimes takes time for us to discover His purposes in nature. The bottom line is that I don’t think there is any philosopher in the world who claims that he knows all discoverable purposes that God has when He created the world.

Actually, scientists possess more data than the philosopher when it comes to the age of the universe, and they may be in a better position to answer what God’s purpose is, or why He waited 13.8 billion years to fashion the world to the state it’s in. If I were to make a guess (and this is just a conjecture on my part), God first created the laws of quantum mechanics and the physical constants of nature. And based on the laws that He established, He probably figured that it would take about 12 billion years just to fuse the heavy elements that would make life possible. Add another 1.8 billion years for everything to unfold, and you get 13.8 billion years. So, the choice of 13.8 billion years was not haphazard or random. He calculated it! Of course, He is powerful enough that He could also create the world in just a million years. But that would overhaul the laws of physics. He could even create the universe in an instant, if he chooses. But instead He chose to use the laws of physics to do its work in building the world. Why did He choose a longer route to build the world? Well, to answer that question, I think I will need divine revelation. Hahaha.
 
The problem is that God is outside of time and yet he chose a very particular point in time 13.8 years ago to create the universe. No one knows why He would choose that particular point in time?
 
The problem is that God is outside of time and yet he chose a very particular point in time 13.8 years ago to create the universe. No one knows why He would choose that particular point in time?
Woah, there.

Time began 13.8 billion years ago. That would mean God didn’t create “in time” but created time itself at that point, a point which wasn’t in time but only marked the beginning of time for those inside the space-time continuum.

If God is outside of the sequence of time, which is what eternal means, i.e. timeless, then he need not create within a sequence of time.

Adjective​

eternal ( not comparable )
existing outside time; as opposed to sempiternal, existing within time but everlastingly

Synonyms: timeless, atemporal
 
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AlNg:
The problem is that God is outside of time and yet he chose a very particular point in time 13.8 years ago to create the universe. No one knows why He would choose that particular point in time?
If God is outside of the sequence of time, which is what eternal means, i.e. timeless, then he need not create within a sequence of time.
One way that CS Lewis imagined this time / eternity distinction is by imagining the time sequence as a line beginning at 0 and extending in one direction 13.8 billion year units.

Time is, following this paradigm, uni-dimensional. It is measured in one direction along that line in a forwards or backwards sequence of moments.

Eternity would be like turning that line into a three/or more dimensional reality, where instead of extending forward or backward from any point on the line, the dimensions explode out in all directions. So eternity would be fully present in all directions at once. Not linear, not planer, but encompassing all of reality entirely and fully actualized.
 
Time began 13.8 billion years ago.
Can you prove that or is that just a guess on your part? There are some physicists who say that there was a void before 13.8 billion years but the void was not really NO Thing but was empty space and time with quantum matter anti-matter fluctuations.
Others say there is a multiverse.
Still others will go for the cyclic theory.
In any of these three situations, there was time and space before the BB.
Please support your claim that there was no time before the BB.
 
eternity would be fully present in all directions at once.
No it is not possible to go back and to reverse direction in time. There is no way to reverse time with the possible exception of an infinitesimally small Planck time interval because of the uncertainty principle. But even in such a case, you are not reversing time, you are only admitting that there could be an uncertainty in your measurement of it.
Let us suppose that you could go back in time to when your paternal grandfather was not yet born. You then met your paternal grandmother who was a child in Lithuania and you brought her to Mexico, while your paternal grandfather remained in Lithuania and was unable to travel to Mexico. In such a case you have arranged it so that your paternal grandfather and your paternal grandmother would never meet. So your father would never be born under such a scenario, or actually under any one of many other scenarios where the two would never meet. You. having traveled back in time, would be able in principle to make such a scenario happen.
Now tell me, if your father had never been born, how is it that you are a living, breathing person on earth.
 
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HarryStotle:
eternity would be fully present in all directions at once.
No it is not possible to go back and to reverse direction in time.
I never claimed it was possible to go back in time. I claimed that measuring time is a linear kind of enterprise.

As to whether (from my quote), “eternity would be fully present in all directions at once,” I am not speaking of what is possible from the perspective of a time-bound creature, I am speaking of what is conceptually possible for the eternal God.

So please, let’s not confuse what is possible for you or I with what could be possible to the God who creates all that exists in the temporal realm.
 
I am speaking of what is conceptually possible for the eternal God.
So it was possible for God to have created the universe 18 billion years ago. But He did not. He chose to create the universe 13.8 billion years ago. Was this a completely random choice or was there some reason or purpose to have chosen it to be 13.8 billion years ago?
 
There are some physicists who say that there was a void before 13.8 billion years but the void was not really NO Thing but was empty space and time with quantum matter anti-matter fluctuations.
The BB theory describes the beginning of spacetime from the Planck epoch forward. If anything exists in the Planck epoch or earlier, it is not part of time as it exists in our universe. If someone proposes that a measureable time or space existed “prior” to the beginning, they are proposing something different from the BB. The Planck Epoch is the opposite of a void, it is denser than we can think.

In a multiverse, each universe has its own time. They are not continuous with, before or after, etc. they are just different. Unless you suggest a metatime, time that covers all the universes, an idea that unmoors time from space and therefor has a radically different meaning than what we call time. That is what happens with a cyclical theory, a uniform spacetime persists through successive “universes.”
 
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HarryStotle:
I am speaking of what is conceptually possible for the eternal God.
So it was possible for God to have created the universe 18 billion years ago. But He did not. He chose to create the universe 13.8 billion years ago. Was this a completely random choice or was there some reason or purpose to have chosen it to be 13.8 billion years ago?
I think you are missing the point completely, here.

God didn’t “create the universe” 13.8 billion years ago. God creates the universe as an entirety from eternity.

From within the space time sequence (our perspective) the universe began, as far as we are concerned, 13.8 billion years ago. However, our perspective is not God’s perspective necessarily.

If God is the eternal, omniscient, omnipotent source of all that exists, why would he have a perspective limited to within time, and as limited as our own perspective? You aren’t claiming that the way you see things is necessarily the only way that God could, are you?

Very anthropocentric and egocentric of you to do so.

To claim God created the universe 13.8 billion years ago is to assume God is standing as an existent at the current time and location (i.e., from your perspective) and did something back then to kick start the universe.

I don’t subscribe to that view, although you are free to.

If God is omnipotent, then his perspective would necessarily be all-encompassing, not limited to any particular time or space, and in fact, beyond all possible constraints including time and space.

Eleanore Stump and Norman Kretzmann do a reasonable job trying to explain things, here…

https://place.asburyseminary.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1382&context=faithandphilosophy
 
God didn’t “create the universe” 13.8 billion years ago.
There was no universe 13.9 billion years ago.
The universe began 13.8 billion years ago.
Does that not mean that God created the universe 13.8 billion years ago?
You say that is our time. Regardless of whether or not it is our time, the universe could have begun 19 billion years ago our time, instead of 13.8 billion years ago.
 
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HarryStotle:
God didn’t “create the universe” 13.8 billion years ago.
There was no universe 13.9 billion years ago.
The universe began 13.8 billion years ago.
Does that not mean that God created the universe 13.8 billion years ago?
You say that is our time. Regardless of whether or not it is our time, the universe could have begun 19 billion years ago our time, instead of 13.8 billion years ago.
By our reckoning, which isn’t God’s. As far as we are concerned God created it then, but that is because our view of space and time is the only grounds by which we can comprehend it. Our reckoning, however, is not God’s.

That timeframe is ours alone, and does not apply to God as he is, only to our understanding of the universe, as meagre as it is.
 
The BB theory describes the beginning of spacetime from the Planck epoch forward. If anything exists in the Planck epoch or earlier, it is not part of time as it exists in our universe. If someone proposes that a measureable time or space existed “prior” to the beginning, they are proposing something different from the BB. The Planck Epoch is the opposite of a void, it is denser than we can think.
No because it is possible that before the Big Bang the universe was an extremely large stretch of a hot, dense material persisting in steady state until the BB occurred. Another theory is that the BB was a moment in time (not the beginning of time) when the universe switched from a moment of contraction to a moment of expansion. Another possibility is the the BB is the offspring of a parent universe.


 
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That timeframe is ours alone, and does not apply to God as he is, only to our understanding of the universe, as meagre as it is.
I thought that God became man so that the human time frame did apply to Him when He became man.
 
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HarryStotle:
That timeframe is ours alone, and does not apply to God as he is, only to our understanding of the universe, as meagre as it is.
I thought that God became man so that the human time frame did apply to Him when He became man.
If you are an actor in a western that took place in the late 1800s, then within the confines of your role as that actor the time sequence of the movie applies to you qua actor. It doesn’t apply to you in your normal life.

In a very loose manner of speaking, God “played the role” of a man in history, so while alive as that particular man in time our historical space-time sequence applied to him qua man. It doesn’t apply to him qua God.
 
The problem is that God is outside of time and yet he chose a very particular point in time 13.8 years ago to create the universe. No one knows why He would choose that particular point in time?
The 13.8 billion years applies to the world, not to God. The world, indeed, began to exist 13.8 billion years ago, but God willed the creation of the world at His own duration, which is eternity, not at the world’s time. In other words, from eternity God willed that the world should exist in time, but time itself only began to exist when the world existed.

I think it is important to understand the exact difference between time and eternity. Time and eternity are two ways of persisting in being, which I call duration. Material beings do not merely exist, but they also endure. For example, we see a stationary body at time t1, then later at time t2, then later at time t3. The body does not disappear during the interval between t1 and t3. It continues to exist; it endures. But obviously, the body does not simultaneously exist at all three instants. It exists first at t1, then later at t2, then later at t3. In fact, it always exists only in the “now.” It exists from instant to instant in a successive fashion. But when it exists at any instant, then it no longer exists at the instant before it, and it does not yet exist in the instant after it. This means that it continues to exist only by successively losing existence and acquiring it again. This is the kind of duration that we call “time.” It is measurable and divisible.

Eternity is different. Eternity is also a kind of duration, or a way of persisting in being. But an eternal being does not persist in being by successively losing existence at one instant and acquiring it again in the next instant. That kind of duration is a mark of imperfection that cannot be allowed in an Infinite Being. Unlike a body that exists at t2 (assuming it is the “now”), but no longer exists at t1 and not yet at t3, an eternal Being possesses infinite existence at one indivisible instant: the eternal NOW. The NOW in a way comprehends all instants of time simultaneously. There is no past or future in eternity, because the so-called “past” and “future” are simultaneously present in the NOW.

When we speak of “13.8 billion years ago,” we are speaking of a time when the world began to exist. But God’s act of creation did not happen in time but in the eternal NOW, which is not measurable nor divisible into months and years.
 
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