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[jdnation]

cestusdei:

When it suits you then you want the US to intervene ie. Kosovo, but when it doesn’t then we are not supposed to “meddle”.

Well, technically, yes! Unless America has some first hand involvement in the situation or is asked for help, then America is welcome. When it intervenes for no reason then of course there’s gonna be backlash! There are times when America does the right thing and there are times when America does the wrong thing. Likewise America would no doubt react the same way if some other uninvolved country meddled in affairs. Now since America is part of the UN, a time when everyone is involved as a global body then of course it’s a much more critical issue whenever things are done.

As for the tidbit on Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima, it is believed the US created conflict with Japan in order to goad them into attacking them so as to change the public’s dissent of joining the war, least that’s how the counter argument goes. Anyway, as for Hiroshima and Nagasaki, America already bombed the living hell out of Japan using regular bombs and Japan was losing with the Emperor ready to surrender. However their pleas for surrender were delayed. The government already invested enough money racing to build the atomic bomb, and so needlessly used it because 1) They wanted to test their investment in a live situation and 2) As a power struggle against Stalin and Russia. It began here and climaxed in the Cold War.

That’s the way the general argument goes. You should be able to find more info about this on the net.

 

[Lance]

------. Anyway, as for Hiroshima and Nagasaki, America already bombed the living hell out of Japan using regular bombs and Japan was losing with the Emperor ready to surrender. However their pleas for surrender were delayed. The government already invested enough money racing to build the atomic bomb, and so needlessly used it because 1) They wanted to test their investment in a live situation and 2) As a power struggle against Stalin and Russia. It began here and climaxed in the Cold War.

That’s the way the general argument goes. You should be able to find more info about this on the net.

The net is a great place for find factual infomation? Anyone can put anything they want on the net. Just because it is on the net does not make it so. Where is you proof that Japan was ready to surrender? Everything I have read said the Japanese would fight to the last man to defend their homeland. An invasion would have cost thousands American lives and like it or not in war the idea is not to save lives of the enemy at the cost of your own troops.

 

[HagiaSophia]

Lance:

The net is a grate place for find factual infomation? Anyone can put anything they want on the net. Just because it is on the net does not make it so. Where is you proof that Japan was ready to surrender? Everything I have read said the Japanese would fight to the last man to defend their homeland. An invasion would have cost thousands American lives and like it or not in war the idea is not to save lives of the enemy at the cost of your own troops. If it saved one American life in my opinion it was worth it.

As Truman once put it, the most dangerous history is the revisionist one.

 

[Steph700]

Lance:

Be honest, yes you do like to brag. You grades have nothing to do with you story. As for my part, since you detest America so much, you would be doing the US a favor to stay in Europe and become a citizen of what ever country you like. Just my two cents worth.

No, actually my point was, regardless of the fact by American standards I was cream-of-the-crop when it came to college age people, there was very little I could do to defend my worldview when I was out of context. These people knew more than me, they knew issues better than I did. Partly b/c they listened to media much different than what I can find in the States.

On another note, several people have commented that my conservative upbringing had nothing to do with how naive I was. Not true. After studying there for a while (and returning to the States to graduate) I moved back to London to work. One of my roommates during that time was a very liberal American, a social worker. This girl never ceased to amaze me with her passion for justice and her in depth knowledge of world history and events. Her college education (at a liberal university) better prepared her for the real world. Mine- even though it was at a very respected liberal arts school- didn’t even come close. There was just no comparison.

Again, my intention was not to brag. It was to say, you know I really thought I was the stuff and boy was I wrong.

It’s a combination of not knowing (being ignorant) b/c of a lacking education and also being arrogant b/c my conservative background taught me that i was from God’s country. Yeah right!

 

[jdnation]

Lance:

The net is a grate place for find factual infomation? Anyone can put anything they want on the net. Just because it is on the net does not make it so. Where is you proof that Japan was ready to surrender? Everything I have read said the Japanese would fight to the last man to defend their homeland. An invasion would have cost thousands American lives and like it or not in war the idea is not to save lives of the enemy at the cost of your own troops. If it saved one American life in my opinion it was worth it.

The best I remember this, to save American lives was the main excuse used. If you don’t like the net you can find books on it too. The Japanese were willing to fight to the last man for the sake of their individual honor, however the American bombings were a terrible blow to their honor and the Emperor and politicians seeing the situation in their country agreed to surrender in humiliation, the Americans were too powerful. The Japanese were bound to the emperor, If the emperor ordered the troops to surrender, they would, otherwise they would fight to the death. The US knew that killing the emperor would be inadvisable as without him the Japanese would surely fight to the death. Killing the emperor to them would have been like crucifying Christ, which is why the emperor wasn’t hung like the other German war criminals however a complete cease fire and any consessions on the part of the Japanese were possible. Peace plans were being worked out, involving talks with the Japanese which I believe included the involvement of the Vatican. However the Russians were also heading towards Japan and this prompted the US to put on some display of power. That’s as best I remember it and have found nothing wrong, you can find detailed information about this. If you find anything wrong, like some blatant lies or misinformation, you’d do me a service to correct me.

 

[Steph700]

cestusdei:

Steph,
I have lived and studied abroad. Did you check what they told you ?.

yes

cestusdei:

Did you look at the context of what they said?

yep

cestusdei:

Did you compare it to the glories of their nations and national leadership of the past?

yes

cestusdei:

In Japan during the month of August they discussed the Atomic bomb with my group. The US students fell all over themselves apologizing for WWII. I was the only one to stand up and just say “Pearl Harbor, if that hadn’t happened there would have been no Hiroshima. My uncle fought in the Pacific in the Navy”. That is all I said. It was all I had to say. It stopped the little hate American fest in its tracks.

Oh, I’m sure it did. It made them think “oh, he’s one of THOSE”- THOSE being people who think America is right no matter what, so really they aren’t worth debating it with b/c they won’t listen. I used to be treated that way too until I became a little more openminded myself.

cestusdei:

Don’t just buy what they told you.

Oh believe me, I didn’t. I was so p/o’d the first couple months was there! How dare they question my country?! How dare they question my president?! America is uniquely blessed by God, after all didn’t God Shed His Grace on Us? I was sooooo mad. But when it came down to it I was mad b/c I couldn’t back up what I believed in the real world. The stuff I was taught about America was so different from what everyone else thought about the States that I felt obligated to look at things objectively. And that’s what I did.

cestusdei:

You want to think? Then THINK. I assure you that we have less to be sorry about then most European nations.

I can’t control what European nations do, I have no right to vote there, etc. I do have the right to be mad about what my country does b/c I (theoretically) have some imput here. Tell me, what good does it do for me to go around and tell other countries to shape up if my country is in such bad shape?

 

[Steph700]

Lisa N:

Excellent point. Why Steph do you think that the teaching in Europe wasn’t slanted but anything you learned here IS slanted? Do you think European countries put the best face on their past transgressions?

Lisa N

Well, part of the reason I valued my experience there so much was the fact, as I mentioned before, that there were over 40 nations represented in this school. Probably at least 10 or 15 in my specific American Presidents classroom. This wasn’t a British university or even a European university. I had people from 4 or 5 continents in the same class as me. It was fascinating.

Do you think the rest of the world has a slant but we specifically don’t? If we are the only ones w/o a slant, how did we manage that?

 

[legeorge]

Steph700:

Do you think the rest of the world has a slant but we specifically don’t? If we are the only ones w/o a slant, how did we manage that?

I’m sorry, but there are many, many horror stories in lots of countries. The United States is just the world’s favorite punching bag. Just like we Catholics are the protestants favorite punching bags. It wouldn’t matter what we did, we would be called evil by a large part of the rest of the world. I suppose these “enlightened” peers of yours have no trouble with China’s forced abortions and sterilizations, Middle Eastern Muslim countries denying women an education and publicly executing them for adultery, Saddam wiping out thousands of Kurds, the Nazi murders of millions, Russian Communism, etc. etc.etc. The list never ends.
Would you have preferred to be schooled in hatred of other countries just so you could have defended yourself against their American bias?
Why is it, if we are so bad, that people have been fleeing to this country for freedom ever since it’s beginning?
Why are so many “arabs” sent to this country for their education?
I’m not too crazy about my country right now. The death culture is taking over and makes me ashamed to be an American right now. But I still wouldn’t want to live anywhere else. I have a Catholic slant. Don’t you?

 

[Lisa_N]

Steph700:

Well, part of the reason I valued my experience there so much was the fact, as I mentioned before, that there were over 40 nations represented in this school. Probably at least 10 or 15 in my specific American Presidents classroom. This wasn’t a British university or even a European university. I had people from 4 or 5 continents in the same class as me. It was fascinating.

Do you think the rest of the world has a slant but we specifically don’t? If we are the only ones w/o a slant, how did we manage that?

No, I am saying that of COURSE the US has a slanted approach to its history but you seem to think that all of these oh so enlightened Europeans were ever so much more objective with respect to their own rather sordid pasts…Again did the Japanese students discuss their actions in China? Brutal by anyone’s standard. Of course the Germans immediately own up to Hitler. One of their own! What a guy! The Scandanavians of course have plenty to brag about with their raping and pillaging of the countryside. They were such civilized visitors. Oh and then there is Spain…how 'bout that Cortz fella. And of course the Inquisition that’s always pointed to as proof Christians are barbarians…wasn’t it the SPANISH Inquisition? Quite an enlightened soul that Philip. Now I do love the Brits but shouldn’t they explain the way they degraded and exploited the various colonies they held? Need I go on?

I get quite weary of the add on halos amongst Europeans. Human nature is human nature. We all have plenty to answer for. As to your unfortunate education, last time I looked you had the opportunity to choose your college and if you were such an incredible brilliant mind you would have had your pick. Once arriving at the hallowed halls you also had a choice of curriculum. So if your education is lacking whose fault is it? It sounds like you didn’t make very good choices along the way and realized it once you encountered students from other schools. I just don’t think you can call this problem a right wing conspiracy…

Lisa N

 

[HagiaSophia]

Lisa N:

No, I am saying that of COURSE the US has a slanted approach to its history but you seem to think that all of these oh so enlightened Europeans were ever so much more objective with respect to their own rather sordid pasts…Again did the Japanese students discuss their actions in China? Brutal by anyone’s standard. Of course the Germans immediately own up to Hitler. One of their own! What a guy! The Scandanavians of course have plenty to brag about with their raping and pillaging of the countryside. They were such civilized visitors. Oh and then there is Spain…how 'bout that Cortz fella. And of course the Inquisition that’s always pointed to as proof Christians are barbarians…wasn’t it the SPANISH Inquisition? Quite an enlightened soul that Philip. Now I do love the Brits but shouldn’t they explain the way they degraded and exploited the various colonies they held? Need I go on?

I get quite weary of the add on halos amongst Europeans. Human nature is human nature. We all have plenty to answer for. As to your unfortunate education, last time I looked you had the opportunity to choose your college and if you were such an incredible brilliant mind you would have had your pick. Once arriving at the hallowed halls you also had a choice of curriculum. So if your education is lacking whose fault is it? It sounds like you didn’t make very good choices along the way and realized it once you encountered students from other schools.

Lisa N

I would only add that as an adult had I entered a clasroom where so many nations were presented and they ALL had the same views, I wuld have suspected at once that a great deal of “socialist brainwashing” had been going on.

I’ve never been in a room with people from that many nations who could get ALL of them to agree on what the OP describes. Sumpin wrong here not the least of which is pots and kettles syndrome.

 

[cestusdei]

jd,
So WE are responsible for Pearl Harbor? WE started WWII? This is EXACTLY why I could care less what Europe thinks. You blame everything on us even when we are the victim. Kosovo was YOUR problem, it’s in Europe right? So who had to go and fix it? US.

 

[Lisa_N]

HagiaSophia:

I would only add that as an adult had I entered a clasroom where so many nations were presented and they ALL had the same views, I wuld have suspected at once that a great deal of “socialist brainwashing” had been going on.

I’ve never been in a room with people from that many nations who could get ALL of them to agree on what the OP describes. Sumpin wrong here not the least of which is pots and kettles syndrome.

I think that you are right, there is probably a common view of the United States but my point to Steph700 is that THIS view is every bit as slanted as their own view of their own actions. Obviously everyone is trying to make themselves look better and conveniently ignore their shortcomings. The US is the latest punching bag but there have been others in the past. YOu know the saying, “It’s lonely at the top.”

Lisa N

 

[Maccabees]

All this anti-american stuff is nasueting coming from Europe.
This from the same people who started the first 2 world wars and of course the Holocust and who had to clean this mess up both times?
Oh Yeah the big bad Americans.
No gratitude.
Of course when Western Europe was in fetal postion during the cold war who stared down the evil empire in the eye.
Oh yeah it was no thanks to any western European countires. Utterly useless in the 3 biggest conflicts int the 20th century.
WW1, WW2 And the cold war were won because of america and Europe benefited each time. yet no thank you card only attacks.
Old Europe is just jealous that they are an afterthought on the world stage nowadays.

 

[cestusdei]

Steph,
Welcome to the world of real peer pressure. You were inundated with anti-American propaganda. Mix a bit of truth with a bit of falsehood and voila. You were in a foreign country. No family or connections. Adrift with all these people who hate us. To fit in you had to adopt their point of view. Sure it was hard at first. But it is hard to be lonely. To stand against the crowd. To take it on the chin as “one of those”. All those nice free thinkers over there, such independent mindedness. But they all think just alike. I went to school with people just like them.

Tell you what. Share with us in this or another thread what they told you. Maybe some of us can find an answer for them. Sure we have some bad stuff in our history. But is a GERMAN going to be able to point it out to us? Yeah right. I would tell him, “hey dude let’s head over to Dachau for a picnic”. In England I went to speakers corner and I held my own. They aren’t smarter or better educated. They have just ingested vast amounts of anti-Americanism and are good at it. Fight back. Hell, you are an American. You can whup 'em.

 

[cestusdei]

Jd,
Since I lived in Japan I will say that they were prepared to fight to the end. The Emperor was under the control of the Tojo government. We estimated 1 million American casualities for the invasion. After the war it was clear they intended to fight and one faction attempted to kidnap the Emperor to avoid having him call it off. They didn’t surrender till we made them. The bomb was the only thing, besides and invasion, that would have forced them to surrender. Those are facts. Ask the older generation of Japanese. That is what they will tell you themselves.

 

[HagiaSophia]

Lisa N:

I think that you are right, there is probably a common view of the United States but my point to Steph700 is that THIS view is every bit as slanted as their own view of their own actions. Obviously everyone is trying to make themselves look better and conveniently ignore their shortcomings. The US is the latest punching bag but there have been others in the past. YOu know the saying, “It’s lonely at the top.”

Lisa N

Well the left is good at that kind of thing, while young students all like to think of themselves as rebels, and different they often look like carbon copies of one another. As my old psych prof used to remind us, “better dead than different”. The more I see of the OP’s postings the more I am reminded of Antony Blunt and his crowd. They were all bright, all intelligent, all politically interested - one by one they fell to their own group think led by their professors. They would have told you that they “think outside the box”, that they were able to perceive more than the rest of their college classmates. In the end they were what they were, chess pieces moved by other masters.

 

[Steph700]

Lisa N:

No, I am saying that of COURSE the US has a slanted approach to its history but you seem to think that all of these oh so enlightened Europeans were ever so much more objective with respect to their own rather sordid pasts…Again did the Japanese students discuss their actions in China? Brutal by anyone’s standard. Of course the Germans immediately own up to Hitler. One of their own! What a guy! The Scandanavians of course have plenty to brag about with their raping and pillaging of the countryside. They were such civilized visitors. Oh and then there is Spain…how 'bout that Cortz fella. And of course the Inquisition that’s always pointed to as proof Christians are barbarians…wasn’t it the SPANISH Inquisition? Quite an enlightened soul that Philip. Now I do love the Brits but shouldn’t they explain the way they degraded and exploited the various colonies they held? Need I go on?

I get quite weary of the add on halos amongst Europeans. Human nature is human nature. We all have plenty to answer for. As to your unfortunate education, last time I looked you had the opportunity to choose your college and if you were such an incredible brilliant mind you would have had your pick. Once arriving at the hallowed halls you also had a choice of curriculum. So if your education is lacking whose fault is it? It sounds like you didn’t make very good choices along the way and realized it once you encountered students from other schools. I just don’t think you can call this problem a right wing conspiracy…

Lisa N

Once again Lisa, venom level’s getting a little high. Tone it down please.

Also, as I said before… this was an American Presidents class. Not a class about Germany, not a class about Japan. Yes, these countries have made mistakes, I would never argue with that. But I guess I’ve never had a problem discussing these problems with people from other countries… Now, if I try to discuss problems with America with Americans, that is often a whole other story (as can be seen above). Some of you would have me give up my citizenship and move elsewhere! Is that REALLY how we should be dealing with problems? Heaven forbid one of our own notices the plank in our country’s eye before going after the splinter in other countries’ eyes.

As far as my education goes, yep it was my choice where I went to school. If I could do it over again a different way would I? Of course! But at age 18… a conservative evangelical girl in middle America… I definitely felt pressured about where I should go. I’ll never blame it on my parents, b/c they never forced me to go where I went. But my conservative Christian friends, sunday school teachers, youth leader, and youth group all played a role in that. Gosh, I wish I hadn’t made the choice to go where I did. But I can’t do anything about that now, except take note of what kinds of schools I will not fund for my children if I have a family in the future. The choices I would make now as a 24 year old are completely different than where I was as an 18 year old. I didn’t know any better, I was so convinced that I needed to be studying in a Red-state with Red-state professors and do everything I could in my power to find a school where I could study abroad in beloved Israel b/c I was pro-Israel that I guess I wasn’t open minded enough to even begin to think about (or to know!) that the kind of education I was going to receive there wouldn’t be relavent in the real world. And to think how much money my parents spent on it makes me feel sick!!

So yes, Lisa, that was my fault, I certainly hope there aren’t other 17 and 18 year olds making the same mistake that I did- which was to think that learning conservative economics and conservative social policy was the good, Christian, American thing to do. It’s kind hard not to though, when all that the 17 and 18 year olds hear is that we are “hated” by “everyone else” and that non-Americans are a bunch of stupid pagans who only care about ridding the world of Christianity (and in so doing, getting rid of God’s chosen country, America). People where I live here in the midwest are so concerned about hunkering down and burrying the heads in the sand that they’re too busy to notice that there’s a great big world of people out there- GOOD people just like us- who have families, who go to school, who observe their religions, and strangely who all seem to notice the same problems with America that we’re just too afraid to look at.

I made a bad choice, I acknowledge that freely. In the meantime I’m doing the best I can to learn things with an open mind and to stop equating being a good Christian with being a good republican. It’s tough to let go of pre-conceived notions… I’m still working on it.

 

[Steph700]

cestusdei:

Fight back. Hell, you are an American. You can whup 'em.

That about sums it up… that’s disgusting. I hope you didn’t portray America in that way while you were abroad.

 

[jdnation]

cestusdei:

jd,
So WE are responsible for Pearl Harbor? WE started WWII? This is EXACTLY why I could care less what Europe thinks. You blame everything on us even when we are the victim. Kosovo was YOUR problem, it’s in Europe right? So who had to go and fix it? US.

No, it’s not really my problem, I’m not European.

BUt thanks for the info on Japan though. The facts as I recall them too are that there was a delay from the US in responding the the Japanese surrender. The Russian factor was a big one. And yes there is teh idea that the US was responsible for Pearl Harbor, but that’s another question entirely, it’s in about the same reign as everything that’s going on with 9/11, which is why many refer to 9/11 as the ‘new Pearl Harbor’ both for reasons of dragging the US into another war as well as the suspicion that the government had foreknowledge.

 

[Norwich]

Lance:

Be honest, yes you do like to brag. You grades have nothing to do with you story. As for my part, since you detest America so much, you would be doing the US a favor to stay in Europe and become a citizen of what ever country you like. Just my two cents worth.

And therein lies your problem. Has it never occured to you that many who criticise America are your friends. They criticise because they are ashamed of their friends behaviour in certain circumstances and they assume (wrongly in your case) that it is a friends duty to tell them when they are wrong.Unfortunately their are some in America who are either to arrogant or to stupid to realise why others try to help.
As is normal in this thread the moment anyone dares to criticise anything American we come out with all the old guff. We hear about how America saved Europes *** in 1942 when they joined the war. Helloo folks it started in 1939. By that time the Battle of Britain had been won i.e. the chance of an invasion of Britain was finished, Rommel was retreating in North Africa, Japan had been stopped from invading into India. Yes the American contribution was important, yes it assisted all the other nations that were fighting to end the war, yes the war against Japan was hard and bloody; for ALL nations that took part, there were a hell of a lot of Ausies and Kiwi’s also invoved in that theatre.
The next we hear about is Kosovo. All we hear is how America had to “Sort it out”, no you didn’t. The UN sorted it out, you wern’t the only ones there, in fact you wern’t the largest force there. Khosovo was a “MULTI LATERAL FORCE” that means a lot of other nations were also involved. These are the people who criticise America, you know, the ones you keep calling your enemies bacause they criticise you, the ones you denegrate bacause they don’t always agree with you.
As we tend to say in Europe, “FOR HEAVENS SAKE GET A LIFE!!!”