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selvaraj
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Norwich
Guest
Maccabees:
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I assume from this that if you disagree with all the policies of Wallmart, you refuse to shop there? Or maybe you would refuse to be treated in a hospital that carriesd out abortions? Because if you do disagree and still use these facilities, is that not hypocracy?
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quijote
Guest
I don’t see what the big problem with this cartoon is. So the paper who published this does not like American policy…so what? There are plenty of papers in the US that have cartoons that portray US policy in a worse manner.
As an immigrant to this country (US), I don’t care what cartoonist/editors/reporters of other countries think of the US.
cheers.
As an immigrant to this country (US), I don’t care what cartoonist/editors/reporters of other countries think of the US.
cheers.
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Brendan
Guest
Yes, because it was completely unacceptable.
The Japanese effectively wanted a cease fire, lines to remain where they were and their facist government to remain intact.
They were ‘offering’ to retain control their conqured parts of China, Korea and Vietnam.
Now imaging the Allies in Europe recieving a similar offer on D-Day. German would cease fighting, but be allowed remain Nazi and still control parts of France, Holland and Belgium.
No friggin way.
By not accepting conditional surrenders, it allowed the Allies to establish free democracies in both German and Japan; which was and remains a great benefit to world peace.
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Richardols
Guest
Right. America’s real contribution to the war was not its military prowess, but rather its position as the “Arsenal of Democracy,” its industrial capacity, which was wholly outside the ability of our enemies to destroy.
If some Jingo insists on claiming that “America won the war,” he’d better understand that American factories, not American soldiers, were the winning factor in the war.
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cestusdei
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Jd,
Only mental cases would say the US knew about 911 in advance and let it happen. There is no evidence of that at all. It is like how some people talk about the “Jews” and blame everything on some conspiracy.Then go on to deny the holocaust ever happened. Even more it’s like telling a rape victim it was her fault, she wanted it, and she asked for it. The Muslims of course want to blame us for their barbarities. So do the Europeans. I am now even more inclined to not care what they think.
Only mental cases would say the US knew about 911 in advance and let it happen. There is no evidence of that at all. It is like how some people talk about the “Jews” and blame everything on some conspiracy.Then go on to deny the holocaust ever happened. Even more it’s like telling a rape victim it was her fault, she wanted it, and she asked for it. The Muslims of course want to blame us for their barbarities. So do the Europeans. I am now even more inclined to not care what they think.
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cestusdei
Guest
Steph,
Yeah us midwest country bumpkins are so stupid. I knew one guy you would no doubt look down upon. Just an old guy with a hick accent. Looked like he never left the county. BUT in WWII he was a gunner on a B-17 and was shot down over Germany. Wandered about looking for US troops after escaping the Germans. Made it home, worked, raised a family. Yeah a real dummy all right. Take my advise. Print what you posted and look at it 10 years from now when your pride and arrogance are somewhat reduced. Look around an notice how many Europeans move to the US to pursue the dreams they can’t follow at home. Read about French atrocities in Ivory Coast or Belgian cowardice in Rwanda. I have news for you. They lied to you. I am willing to bet we can defend ourselves against whatever they told you. Just like the Church can refute the fundamentalists. The people you dealt with were anti-American fundy’s. They are lucky I wasn’t in that class. They might have had their pointy little heads challenged.
Yeah us midwest country bumpkins are so stupid. I knew one guy you would no doubt look down upon. Just an old guy with a hick accent. Looked like he never left the county. BUT in WWII he was a gunner on a B-17 and was shot down over Germany. Wandered about looking for US troops after escaping the Germans. Made it home, worked, raised a family. Yeah a real dummy all right. Take my advise. Print what you posted and look at it 10 years from now when your pride and arrogance are somewhat reduced. Look around an notice how many Europeans move to the US to pursue the dreams they can’t follow at home. Read about French atrocities in Ivory Coast or Belgian cowardice in Rwanda. I have news for you. They lied to you. I am willing to bet we can defend ourselves against whatever they told you. Just like the Church can refute the fundamentalists. The people you dealt with were anti-American fundy’s. They are lucky I wasn’t in that class. They might have had their pointy little heads challenged.
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Matt25
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In the aftermath of the September 11th 2001 attacks the French Newspaper Le Monde famously declared “We are all Americans now”. At that time there was no more loved country and no more loved people in the world than America and the Americans. We shared your grief and your horror.
That in such a short period of time the USA has managed to dissipate such an enormous fund of good will is tragic. That in many ways it has turned into active dislike is worse than tragic. I ask all Americans to think is it not possible that in some slight, tiny significant way that this about turn is not entirely the fault of we wicked foreigners. Is it not possible that if the USA had behaved slightly differently we would all still be able to reiterate those words of Le Monde?
That in such a short period of time the USA has managed to dissipate such an enormous fund of good will is tragic. That in many ways it has turned into active dislike is worse than tragic. I ask all Americans to think is it not possible that in some slight, tiny significant way that this about turn is not entirely the fault of we wicked foreigners. Is it not possible that if the USA had behaved slightly differently we would all still be able to reiterate those words of Le Monde?
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Lisa_N
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Matt have you ever heard of the newscycle? In 48 hours what was the burning issue becomes a birdcage liner. How many millions was donated to tsunami research right AFTER the tragedy? Now how much is being donated? We’re now hearing secong guessing about various aid and whether certain countries “deserved” it.
I don’t think that the US ‘squandered’ its goodwill so much as the news got old and people grew tired of it.
Lisa N
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jdnation
Guest
Incorrect, the only real conditional term was that the emperor remain the emperor (another was for the home islands remaining a part of Japan). Aside from that the surrender was to be unconditional. The Japanese forces would cease hostilities, they would remain where they were, BUT, an imposition was placed on them to obey the Commanding General of the United States Army and other authorities when they decided what the Japanese forces should do next. Prisoners of War that they held were to be released and organized for their return home.
You can read the final documents here.
If you wish to argue that prior to the official surrender that the Japanese may have tried to have other conditions, that is granted (Though the only known conditions were of course the emperor and that they retain their home islands if possible). However an undeniable fact is that the Japanese knew the war for them was futile, and knowing that the Russians would soon be upon them too surrender was the only option they could afford and a peace party was beginning. At first the Japanese were asking the Russians to renew a neutrality pact, but it became clear they wouldn’t.
There was already some dialogue going on so it was only a matter of time. No more American lives would’ve been lost as by that time, the scheduled operation to land troops onto Japan was believed to never have to happen, although some consensus was that the Japanese might have held out for 2 years longer and the bombs might speed up the process, no doubt. The allies had the policy of ‘unconditional surrender’ but could find some way around it if the situation warranted it, this was apparently said that this was bent a little for Italy’s surrender. All that needed to be done was negotiate. The Japanese knew about the ‘inconditional surrender’ the US insisted on, they would not press for anything further than retaining what was originally theirs. In the end despite the bombing, this never changed. The wording was that the emperor and Japanese government to rule would be subject to the Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces who would decide what is proper. The American terms are here. The ultimate form of government would be according to the will of the Japanese people. In other words it was pretty much a guarantee that the emperor would be retained.
At any point, the Japanese surrender according to agreeable tenets was all possible, nothing really changed unless I’m mistaken, between the original conditions asked for and the end result. There was no reason for the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan for surrender or saving additional American lives though the last part maybe arguable. Gen. Dwight Eisenhower, the Commander in Chief of allied forces in Europe wrote in his autobiography*,“I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act… The Secretary, upon giving me the news of the successful bomb test in New Mexico, and of the plan for using it, asked for my reaction, apparently expecting a vigorous assent. During the recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression, and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment, I thought no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of ‘face.’ The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude, almost angrily refuting the reasons I gave for my quick conclusions.”*
While the possibility of Japan holding out was an argument (though the military commanders fighting against Japan disagreed). The decisions to drop the bombs were mostly made at the politician level, we can also say Churchill would have been involved with this. The scientists who worked on the Manhatten Project themselves were opposed to using the weapon. The biggest reason for using the bomb at all had to do with the Soviet Union, which is a story for another time.
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Richardols
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Yes. The overall U.S. Naval commander (Adm. King?) opposed the use of the bomb on the grounds that the naval blockade already in place would be sufficient to force the Japanese to surrender, and without any loss of American lives.
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jdnation
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I disagree, I say there is plenty of evidence that the official story is full of holes that if left unfilled create damning possibilities. There’s no use poisoning the well here by associating it with holocaust deniers, or raped victims feeling guilty. The most criticism against the US for conspiracies etc actually comes from it’s own citizens. No outside government would go to make such detailed criticisms of conspiracy even if they believed it, in that sphere it is kept purely diplomatic until something is glaringly obvious.
It is understandable that you detest Europeans over global issues of war and perhaps you are justified that in some cases they might use your country for their own ends. But it’s no more the exact same thing that they feel for your country in return. That’s the nature of these arguments. Everyone arguing about splinters with logs in their own eyes. Such things are a complicated mess and no country has any record in these activities to be proud of. Many times such things are simply mistakes of well intentioned men.
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Steph700
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Don’t put words in my mouth buddy.
Why don’t you take some of your own advice?
OOOO!!! Wow, they better all watch out. I think in your experience, when you found you were able to “hold your own” the reality was that the people around you realized you were so full of yourself and so blindly in support of your country’s policies no matter what, that there was just no point debating it with you. I’m at that point now.
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Della
Guest
Getting back to the arab cartoon, if what it depicts were true, the party/man we had backed in Iraq would have won the recent elections, or else! But, that isn’t the case. The arab cartoonist would do better looking into why the people of Iraq are still putting up with suicide bomber and being gunned down in the streets by agitators from outside Iraq. When they own up to that and other atrocities, I’ll consider how terrible the US has been over there.
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cestusdei
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jd,
I guess some people will buy anything. If you want to buy the Jack Chick type of perspective about 911 you can do so. But don’t expect me to take you seriously.
I guess some people will buy anything. If you want to buy the Jack Chick type of perspective about 911 you can do so. But don’t expect me to take you seriously.
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cestusdei
Guest
Matt,
I was in Europe right after 911. I remember thinking “how long will this last till they hate us again?”. I took about 3 months before they found an excuse.
I was in Europe right after 911. I remember thinking “how long will this last till they hate us again?”. I took about 3 months before they found an excuse.
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cestusdei
Guest
Steph,
You learned well from them. Once you hear something challenging close your eyes and ears and repeat “USA is bad”. You never shared with us anything substantive about what they claimed. And if you look at your comments about us ignorant hillbillies you will see I didn’t misquote you at all. I am from the midwest, speak several languages, have lived and worked abroad, and have no doubt travelled more widely then you have. Also I went to an extremely liberal college where views like yours were predominate. That was back in the old Cold War days. I would love to talk to some of them now and see if they will admit they were wrong and we were right. I will say it again. Those folks lied to you in order to convert you to their anti-US religion. Don’t be so open minded your brains fall out.
You learned well from them. Once you hear something challenging close your eyes and ears and repeat “USA is bad”. You never shared with us anything substantive about what they claimed. And if you look at your comments about us ignorant hillbillies you will see I didn’t misquote you at all. I am from the midwest, speak several languages, have lived and worked abroad, and have no doubt travelled more widely then you have. Also I went to an extremely liberal college where views like yours were predominate. That was back in the old Cold War days. I would love to talk to some of them now and see if they will admit they were wrong and we were right. I will say it again. Those folks lied to you in order to convert you to their anti-US religion. Don’t be so open minded your brains fall out.
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