Archaeological Evidences for the Book of Mormon?

[TOmNossor]

Why do the gold plates have any value at all since Joseph Smith did not use them for the Book of Mormon but in fact used a seer stone in a hat?

I think that is part of the mythology in Bushman’s reading. They contain the BOM in some why and yet they likely didn’t get used in the “translation” of the BOM.
Charity, TOm

 

[TexanKnight]

I have not had personal conversation with Coe who is a first rate archeologist. I am just relating things from Sorenson (or Sorenson’s son I cannot remember).

So not only do you attempt to discredit without the qualifications to do so, you use hearsay from someone who has is bias in order to do so. Wow. Just wow.

I am not qualified to question Coe’s archeological knowledge and I didn’t.

Actually, you did. Just not successfully

I passed on Sorenson’s comment that Coe’s archeological knowledge is not the problem rather he is not an expert on the BOM.

Sorenson uses a common technique when he is out of his league. He tries to say someone is NOT an expert on something that is not relevant in order to discredit. It does not work, and Coe is correct. You truly are basing your beliefs on a whisp of smoke.

I know of no question of yours that I do not believe is quite clearly answered in this thread. I asked that you read my posts and answer your question so that I might evaluate what you have gotten as I am not sure I can be more clear (and I do not want to repeat myself, except when I want to repeat myself, and now I do not want to repeat myself)

lol…another common technique for you Mormons. You ignore the question for so long, then say you answered it knowing that going back and looking prolly aint gonna happen. I get it. You have no defense for the fact Cumorah will not be excavated. Probably because YOU know that, despite the fact all those b of m battles occurred there, you will find no evidence to support it. I suppose you will address this in about 40 posts trelling me you actually answered this when you know it is not true.

.
Charity, TOm

 

[Stephen168]

Michael D. Coe, a prominent Mesoamerican archaeologist and Professor Emeritus of Anthropology at Yale University, wrote,

" Michael D. Coe:

  Let me now state uncategorically that as far as I know there is not one professionally trained archaeologist, who is not a Mormon, who sees any scientific justification for believing the foregoing to be true, ... The bare facts of the matter are that nothing, absolutely nothing, has ever shown up in any New World excavation which would suggest to a dispassionate observer that the Book of Mormon, as claimed by Joseph Smith, is a historical document relating to the history of early migrants to our hemisphere.

Sorenson claims that Coe is an expert on Mesoamerica, but that his biggest miss is his less thorough understanding of the BOM….
(and I think the best point is that Coe has not studied the BOM as extensively has Sorenson).

lol…in one sentence you admit you are no Archaeologist, then a few sentences later try to discredit someone who is. How can you possibly find yourself qualified to discredit him?

The average Mormon reads the Book of Mormon but is seems to be over the head of a Harvard educated Yale Professor.

I’m sticking with Michael Coe’s claim.

 

[eightydeuce82]

Wheeeeewww I just read everything here up till this point and have still yet to see any proof of anything archeological in nature found right here in Merica or mesoamerica! We have archiologists from every denomination including athiests finding historical things, places, artifacts, proof of former peoples everywhere. I mean we dig up dianasours every day. The fact still stands of the claims to all these battles and all this stuff and not one coin, not one pot, not one cloth has been uncovered to prove any of this? Yet its all naysayers just putting down mormonism!

 

[eightydeuce82]

I can say with almost certainty that if this were to go on mythbusters we would certainly get a myth busted!

 

[eightydeuce82]

If a 7 year old can dig up a dinasour in PA or if 2 drunk guys walking down the columbia river can find the oldest human ever discoverd im pretty sure the experts who do this for a living could at least find one artifact one piece of proof in 180 or how ever long? nope nothing…What I have found is a big difference in appologetics between catholics and mormans. Catholics actually have scientific basis and history to back up their apologetics…mormans seem to get instructed on how to dance around a question much like if you were asking a lawyer to give a finite answer…

 

[Stephen168]

If they could just find some horse bones
Sorenson:

The question of the presence of the horse in civilized Mesoamerica further illustrates
the problem of what is acceptable archaeological documentation. C. E. Ray’s report
(1957. “Pre-Columbian horses from Yucatan,” Journal of Mammalogy 38: 278) of finding
horse bones in deep layers of the water hole at Mayapan (Yucatan) raised anew an issue
that Mercer (1896) and Hatt (1953) had earlier raised with their finds of horse bones on
the surface in Yucatan caves. The matter was compounded by Peter Schmidt’s 1988 work
in Loltun Cave that found horse bones scattered through a number of layers of early
pottery-bearing debris; he observed, “something went on here that is still difficult to
explain.” (Interestingly, he was not aware of the finds Ray reported.) There are also
further evidences for pre-1500 A.D. dates of other horse bones (including three
radiocarbon-dated finds from North America). This, like the metals, is an “unfinished”
archaeological story, in this case defying the dictum that “there were no horses” for the
last ten thousand years in America. Simultaneously it shows the limits of the data
revealed by excavations about which so much is said.

Ray, Hatt, and Schmidt believed the horse bones/teeth were Pleistocene age. And Sorenson knew it when he wrote it.
John L. Sorenson:

Clayton E. Ray somewhat lamely suggests that the fossil teeth were of Pleistocene age and “could have been transported . . . as curios by the Mayans.”

 

[TOmNossor]

TexanKnight:
You have no defense for the fact Cumorah will not be excavated.
TexanKnight,
Perhaps I misunderstood something from your past posts. I am absolutely in favor of excavating the Hill Cumorah. As I have mentioned before I am not sure what the Nephite artifacts I expect to find will look like and how they will be distinguished from non-Nephite artifacts.

Of course perhaps you really thought I had some reluctance to conduct archeological research with respect to the Hill Cumorah. I don’t.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

If they could just find some horse bones

Ray, Hatt, and Schmidt believed the horse bones/teeth were Pleistocene age. And Sorenson knew it when he wrote it.
I have read enough about archeology that the two quotes you provide are not troubling on the surface.
There are two ways of dating artifacts. One is radiocarbon dating this is a rather direct way to test the date of organic material. Only errors here of huge consequence are contamination.
The other is a stratospheric method of dating. Artifacts present with other artifacts of known timeframe are likely of the same timeframe. This method involves a lot of assumptions.
Sorenson’s second comment (if I understand correctly) is that Schmidt’s assessment of horse timeframe is not a product of radiocarbon dating AND is in opposition stratospheric dating. Schmidt postulates shuffling of his site due to his knowledge that horse bones could not be dated in the stratosphere they were found because there were no horses.

BTW, I lean away from their actually being horses in BOM times; but it is not as clear cut as some think.
Charity, TOm

 

[RebeccaJ]

The claim of Joseph Smith, and his followers, revolved around the Mound Builders, which was a culture of the Great Lakes, Ohio and Mississippi River valleys.

1834:

Heber C. Kimball wrote in 1841 that several of the group, along with Joseph Smith, walked to the top of a mound that they had located on the bank of the Illinois river. Kimball states that “[o]n the top of this mound there was the appearance of three altars, which had been built of stone, one above another, according to the ancient order; and the ground was strewn over with human bones.” This prompted Kimball and the others to dig into the mound after sending for a shovel and a hoe. “At about one foot deep we discovered the skeleton of a man, almost entire; and between two of his ribs we found an Indian arrow, which had evidently been the cause of his death. We took the leg and thigh bones and carried them along with us to Clay county. All four appeared sound.”[3]
After continuing on their journey, Kimball reports that “*t was made known to Joseph that he had been an officer who fell in battle, in the last destruction among the Lamanites, and his name was Zelph. This caused us to rejoice much, to think that God was so mindful of us as to show these things to his servant. Brother Joseph had enquired of the Lord and it was made known in a vision.”[4]. (Wikipedia)



Naples-Russel Mound 8, also known as Zelph’s Mound, in Pike County, Illinois

The culture, according to archaeologist and anthropologists is Havana-Hopewell. The surrounding Dickson mounds, of the same people and period, have been excavated by archaeologists. They found no evidence of a Book of Mormon culture or artifacts, they found evidence of a pre-Columnian, Stone Age, agrarian society, that had a vast trading network. Artifacts from as far away as Yellowstone obsidian and Gulf Coast shells. But, no Mesoamerican artifacts, or artifacts pointing towards a horse culture or a Bronze or Iron Age culture.*

 

[TexanKnight]

TOmNossor:
TexanKnight,
Perhaps I misunderstood something from your past posts. I am absolutely in favor of excavating the Hill Cumorah. As I have mentioned before I am not sure what the Nephite artifacts I expect to find will look like and how they will be distinguished from non-Nephite artifacts.

Of course perhaps you really thought I had some reluctance to conduct archeological research with respect to the Hill Cumorah. I don’t.
Charity, TOm

Awesome. So why doesn’t your church do it? Some leaders are saying that the Cumorah in NY is not THE Cumorah, despite the fact that prophets have declared it is. Which of your leaders do you believe?

And there is no need to have the red herring worry about nephite artifacts. With all the hundreds of thousands who died in those battles, it will be easy to figure out.

So why, since the lds church owns the land, do they not excavate it?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Archaeological evidence of a horse culture of Kazakhstan, c. 4th-3rd century BCE:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Horse tack, wood and tin


Round Tray on Conical Stand with Figures of Seated Man and Standing Horse in Center. Bronze


U-Shaped Element with Scale Pattern from Bridle Throat Latch, late 4th - early 3rd century B.C.E

 

[Stephen168]

I have read enough about archeology that the two quotes you provide are not troubling on the surface.

And you missed the point.

Sorenson makes the reader believe that others believe there were horses during the Book of Mormon period.

Sorenson knows that others do not believe that.

Sorenson is a Mormon apologist.

 

[JHow]

Nice pictures, Rebecca J. I especially liked photo number 2, which in addition to being clear evidence of a horse culture, also looks like it might be evidence of a tea (warm beverage?) culture. How else to interpret the cup in his hand?

 

[RebeccaJ]

I have read enough about archeology that the two quotes you provide are not troubling on the surface.
There are two ways of dating artifacts. One is radiocarbon dating this is a rather direct way to test the date of organic material. Only errors here of huge consequence are contamination.
The other is a stratospheric method of dating. Artifacts present with other artifacts of known timeframe are likely of the same timeframe. This method involves a lot of assumptions.
Sorenson’s second comment (if I understand correctly) is that Schmidt’s assessment of horse timeframe is not a product of radiocarbon dating AND is in opposition stratospheric dating. Schmidt postulates shuffling of his site due to his knowledge that horse bones could not be dated in the stratosphere they were found because there were no horses.

BTW, I lean away from their actually being horses in BOM times; but it is not as clear cut as some think.
Charity, TOm

Fossilization requires several hundred cycles of wet/ dry, wet/dry. A fossilized bone in a layer of artifacts that do not indicate the same environmental exposures indicates, “one of these does not belong”. The fossilized bone is the most likely candidate, don’t you think?

But, if you have evidence of horses being used for war c. 1600 years ago anywhere in the Americas, I’d be interest in hearing about it.

 

[Nicea325]

Awesome. So why doesn’t your church do it? Some leaders are saying that the Cumorah in NY is not THE Cumorah, despite the fact that prophets have declared it is. Which of your leaders do you believe?

And there is no need to have the red herring worry about nephite artifacts. With all the hundreds of thousands who died in those battles, it will be easy to figure out.

**So why, since the lds church owns the land, do they not excavate it?/**QUOTE]

Evidently they are afraid of something? Or the results may turn out to be: uch:

 

[kimg901]

This is just my :twocents: but I would be careful about wanting the Mormons to dig up their Hill. Lucifer is trying his hardest to pull people away from God. And lets just say Lucifer placed an object there to be dug up guess what? People would be converting to the lds religion regardless of what their doctrine(s) say. They would finally have their proof and pull many away from God. Let them sit on their Hill happy knowing there is nothing to find. If they want to continue down this dark road then so be it. God has the final say and what excuse will they try and make when they are being judged?

 

[PaulDupre1]

I doubt that we need to worry about the LDS digging up any Nephites.

 

[TexanKnight]

I doubt that we need to worry about the LDS digging up any Nephites.

but…but…js and the other lds "prophets SWORE and DECLARED that this was the place hundreds of thousands of people died…certainly we will find at least ONE bone…

right?

Or maybe it is just safer to ignore the issue and hold a pageant there, instead…

 

[Porknpie]

but…but…js and the other lds "prophets SWORE and DECLARED that this was the place hundreds of thousands of people died…certainly we will find at least ONE bone…

right?

Or maybe it is just safer to ignore the issue and hold a pageant there, instead…

Tex, do you think since they were wrong on Cumorah despite their SWORE above…that they are wrong on there being a “great apostasy”?