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MonikaBarbara
Guest
Notice the last part: FROM NOW ON SIN NO MORE.
Jesus said: I will give you a second chance, take it and stop sinning. He did not say: do whatever you want, and I’ll just turn a blind eye.
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Jesus said: I will give you a second chance, take it and stop sinning. He did not say: do whatever you want, and I’ll just turn a blind eye.
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sarah_j
Guest
**“Go and sin no more.” **And He didn’t go into a long explanation about how possibly she wasn’t really
in a state of sin because her conscience told her otherwise.
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Michael1978
Guest
Amen.
And He didn’t go into a long explanation about how possibly she wasn’t really
in a state of sin because her conscience told her otherwise.
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qui_est_ce
Guest
And He didn’t go into a long explanation about how possibly she wasn’t really
in a state of sin because her conscience told her otherwise.
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SWolf
Guest
It’s like we’re all speaking two different languages. The words are the same but the meaning is completely different.
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clem456
Guest
How does he treat the adulterous different than the greedy? Serious question, not trying to be difficult.
Is not the overturning of the tables an act of mercy?
Are we to believe Jesus teaches that greed has more serious consequences than lust? Are we to believe that Jesus did not turn the tables on the adulterous woman?
Does he leave her life intact, just as it was, or did he turn it upside down?
He is merciful because he radically overhauls the life of the sinner, and calls us to change. He does not affirm us in our sin with a weak pat on the back.
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Michael1978
Guest
Excellent post.
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gilliam
Guest
Did Jesus radically overhauls the life of the adulterous? Or did he spare her and admonish her to sin no more? That was a gentile, kind way of appealing to her. A lot different than overturning the tables of those who thought they were righteously following the law. You say they were greedy, and by our Christian standards today, they were. But not by the standards of the time. How many ‘righteous Christians’ are ‘righteously’ downgrading others because of the other’s temptations? How many on this very forum do it many times daily? Is this really what Jesus taught? … as I said before… something to meditate about.
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livnlern
Guest
Possibly he was more angry with the moneychangers because they had the approval of the Pharisees who were supposed to lead the people in the right direction instead of doing what was pleasing to them.
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LongingSoul
Guest
How do you distinguish between justice and mercy. There is a distinction otherwise the Church wouldn’t hold St Faustina’s urgent messages from the Lord in such high esteem. The adulteress deserved stoning but Jesus halted the just act and didn’t meter any punishment at all.
The money lenders experienced angry retribution for their sin. They got what they deserved. Justice with no mercy.
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livnlern
Guest
The adultress was caught in the act, dragged out into the street and almost killed by an angry mob (not to mention that her partner in the act must have run off or been let go).
Can you imagine being attacked in this way? Jesus probably thought she’d been punished enough and knew that the trauma she’d experienced would stay with her.
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clem456
Guest
Since there is one God who is love, justice and mercy serve love. They are from one loving source. The are distinguished from one another by Scripture and the Church but maybe they are a both/and, and are part of the same substance of love. I dunno. Someone smarter than me will have to define those boundaries or the continuum they fall on.
God is merciful when he reproves. He is mercy. He is also just. The money lenders were given mercy.
Do you believe that Christ loved the moneychangers any less than the adultress?
Do they accept his mercy or do they resent God for turning their lives upside down? If the incident is the turning point for them, then praise God’s mercy.
Jesus applied mercy to different people in different ways, according to their state of life and needs. That approach is merciful.
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clem456
Guest
For instance, in my own life, I have suffered the consequences of my own sin. In God’s justice, I was allowed to suffer just desserts. I was, as they say, “convicted of sin” by God. Not condemned, but convicted. This was an act of mercy and grace on God’s part, as the pain of suffering was some serious motivation to avoid sin. If I had not experienced God’s justice, I would not have experienced his mercy.
If I had not been convicted of sin, I might still be changin the money at the table, tragically unaware of the need for conversion. I thank God that he chastised me, and I am 100% serious about that.
There have also been moments of comfort which are intensely appealing and joyous, more easily definable as mercy. These are also powerful and maybe more perfect motivators for conversion. God in his mercy allows me to see that he has paid the price for my sin and does not condemn me, but rather asks me to spread the joy around.
both/and not either/or ?
If I had not been convicted of sin, I might still be changin the money at the table, tragically unaware of the need for conversion. I thank God that he chastised me, and I am 100% serious about that.
There have also been moments of comfort which are intensely appealing and joyous, more easily definable as mercy. These are also powerful and maybe more perfect motivators for conversion. God in his mercy allows me to see that he has paid the price for my sin and does not condemn me, but rather asks me to spread the joy around.
both/and not either/or ?
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LongingSoul
Guest
There’s a lot of surmising there but whatever the situation, Jesus was appealing to human realities in regards to serving justice. He was saying to the accusers keep in mind that you are sinners also and its been said that what He was writing on the ground were some of the sins that the crowd would be able to identify in themselves… jogging their own consciences.
He knew that an adulteress deserved stoning because that is the law decreed by Moses, but He is saying to them that there’s more to man made laws than strictly applying Gods justice. If we keep very aware of the fact of our own sinfulness and Gods mercy towards us, we are compelled like the Unmerciful Servant, to apply the law in the same merciful way.
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LongingSoul
Guest
To go forward I believe we have to acknowledge distinction between justice and mercy and not keep making them interchangeable relatives. I’ve got the Diaries of St Faustina and the messages from Jesus are really challenging but when you read them they are so clearly compelling us to change our attitude towards sinners.
“Let the greatest sinners place their trust in My mercy. They have the right before others to trust in the abyss of My mercy. My daughter, write about My mercy towards tormented souls. Souls that make an appeal to My mercy delight Me. To such souls I grant even more graces than they ask. I cannot punish even the greatest sinner if he makes an appeal to My compassion, but on the contrary, I justify him in My unfathomable and inscrutable mercy. Write: before I come as a just judge, I first open wide the door of My mercy. He who refuses to pass through the door of My mercy must pass through the door of My justice…” (1146)
There is a door of mercy and a door of justice. Two doors. We have to strive to define them because they are Jesus compelling words.
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clem456
Guest
Distinct attributes/one God
who is always merciful and always just.
God cannot be unjust and he is always merciful. We might refuse his mercy, but we can’t say he is not merciful. Merciful in judging?
Sometimes (always?) mercy uses the the elements of justice to convey mercy.
I disagree with the relativist comment. I think the attributes are relativized when they are set against one another, not when they are seen as coming from the same loving God and serving the same good end.
And that is always what happens in these discussions, one is set against the other, relative to it.
God is mysterious for sure.
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LongingSoul
Guest
Using an example from Scripture, what makes the Unmerciful Servant unmerciful then. He took the path prescribed by the law to be just ie. handing his debtor over to imprisonment for his unpaid debt. Why does scripture refer to that as unmerciful if it is indeed just?
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Brendan
Guest
Yep, which was why Christ was able to get out of their trap
One thing to keep in mind, the woman was in no actual physical danger. Roman law required that only they issue a death sentence. There were cases of mob violence, but that usually resulted in a Roman reprisal. And it was certainly NOT something that the Pharisees were going to appear to be provoking.
Hence why in John 8:6, we note that the Pharisees did this as a trap to accuse him.
It would only be a trap if there was no perceived way out. To the Pharisees, Christ could either reject the Mosaic Law, in which case they could denounce Him to the people as a false prophet.
Or, if He up held the Mosaic Law, the Pharisees had a case to bring to the Romans and accuse Him, of condemning a woman to death without Roman approval.
Christ did neither. He did not deny the Mosaic Law, and did so in a way that would not hold up in a Roman court.
He basically told the Pharisees that they could just go go ahead and stone her. The essence of the school of the Pharisees was to uphold the Law without fail. As you noted, they were, according to the Law, sinless, as the Pharisee does not violate the Law. They considered themselves to be without sin, and they presented themselves to people as being so.
Thus, they could not go to the people and claim that Christ had denied the Mosaic Law, as He had not.
Likewise, they could not go to a Roman court and claim that Christ gave the command to stone her, as it would have been laughed out of Roman Court if they tried to claim that they were sinless.
We also see that in John 8:9, when it was the oldest (and wisest) Pharisees who left first, they saw that their trap failed.
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clem456
Guest
The servant is a human being.
Later in the passage The Master reveals himself in his perfection:
I would certainly rather pass along the forgiveness from my heart than to be reprimanded by almighty God “until…”.
But, whatever it takes is going to have to be enough for me. God wills my salvation and will do his part, his way.
Is the master just in handing the ingrate over to his torture?
Is the master merciful in handing over the ingrate to his torture?
Yes and yes.
Will the ingrate accept God’s will for what it is, and turn back to him? If he refuses God’s offer, he will not experience God’s mercy. But God is still merciful independent of our experience of it.
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LongingSoul
Guest
We’re human beings too. We have to take note of the requirements of the human beings in the parable.
You’re doing word gymnastics here. Parables are like Scripture for dummies and don’t need to be reinvented. God opened the door of mercy to the servant and forgave his debt. When the servant decided to subject his debtor to the just law, God made him walk through the door of justice himself. First there was the door of mercy and then there was the door of justice. We can’t interchange them because we don’t like the idea of our debtors getting away without paying.
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