Archbishop Chaput responds to Pelosi-Pope meeting

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Marsha_Adams said:
This is a lie that the media loves to tell. But it is a lie and I am sooo tired of hearing it. If the Catholic vote were broken down into the following categories you get a completely different result:
  1. Catholic but never attends Church
  2. Catholic attends Church at Christmas and Easter
  3. Catholic attends Church at least weekly
  4. Catholic attends Church more often than weekly
If you subtract the first category the percentage of Catholics voting for Obama drops radically. Now I don’t consider that category to even be Catholic. If you only count the practicing Catholics (3 and 4) you will find that less than 15% of Catholics voted for Obama. Granted that is 15% too many, but it is not the 60% that the media uses to slab the Church in the face everyday.
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Wow, that’s a tiny percentage of numbers 3 and 4! I’m ashamed that so few are practicing! I wish I could go to daily mass. My work schedule and health prevent me from doing so. And when I get too sick to go to Church, my heart sinks to the depths. 😦
 
Snerticus said:
Wow, that’s a tiny percentage of numbers 3 and 4! I’m ashamed that so few are practicing! I wish I could go to daily mass. My work schedule and health prevent me from doing so. And when I get too sick to go to Church, my heart sinks to the depths. 😦
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I think you misinterpreted what I meant – probably because I was not clear.

Suppose of the four groups the % of voters for Obama looked like this (I am making this up as I go for the sake of discussion.)
  1. 2,500,000 voters 100%
  2. 2,500,000 voters 100%
  3. Code: 
    750,000 voters  25%
  4. Code: 
    250,000 voters    25%
total votes for Obama 6,000,000, 60% of all Catholic votes,

But what that means in my bogus example is that 3,000,000 Catholics fall into groups 3 and 4 who did not vote for Obama, but those that did only constitute 10% of the total so-called Catholic vote…
 
Well, I didn’t really want to get into the statistical realm, 'cause I can’t play on that field. The 60% is what the public sees and that is their reality. When I heard the chatter after Mass that Sunday in the Church community room, it seemed about right.

Perception is Reality, and the perception is that Catholics don’t care…about Catholic teachings.

The point is that even one person thumbing his/her nose at the threat of Mortal Sin by providing any semblance of support for those candiates is one too many. How many of them are just too smart for God and are too focused on today’s feel good’s and happiness and stuff to be concerned about something like Sin that may or may not have some impact somewhere in the distant - far distant future…Many people in my own parish community - many of whom I respected, have turned out to be those hypocrits - active seemingly 3’s, 4’s or even 5’s.

And it hurts, and I pray. Should we confront?

Love & prayers,
Kak
 
FiremanFrank said:
Then let’s remind them!
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Not my call, actually. A Bishop would have to lay hands on me three times, and the Holy See give me a post before it would be. 🙂

Call me a cockeyed optimist if you will, but I see it as a good sign that the behaviour of these folks who trumpet their lack of faithfulness invokes such outrage from many Catholics and responses from Bishops - better than a decree.

Remember: Maybe everyone knows what Nancy et al say, but they also know what the Holy Father et al say in answer.

Blessings,

Gerry

Blessings,

Gerry
 
Gerry_Hunter said:
Not my call, actually. A Bishop would have to lay hands on me three times, and the Holy See give me a post before it would be. 🙂

Call me a cockeyed optimist if you will, but I see it as a good sign that the behaviour of these folks who trumpet their lack of faithfulness invokes such outrage from many Catholics and responses from Bishops - better than a decree.

Remember: Maybe everyone knows what Nancy et al say, but they also know what the Holy Father et al say in answer.

Blessings,

Gerry

Blessings,

Gerry
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I am beginning to be of this mindset also. The more the enemies of the Church show themselves, the better we can prepare ourselves to withstand them.

I just love this Irish “Curse”, this part anyway.

May those who love us love us.
And those that don’t love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if He doesn’t turn their hearts,
May he turn their ankles,
So we’ll know them by their limping.
 
No ankle turning necessary 'causes they stick out their forked tonges for all to see. 🙂

Maybe a good 40 hour devotion meditation topic during Lent –
Pray for all those Catholics who voted against life, that they understand their error through examination of conscience and confess with a contrite heart. It can’t hurt!

Spread the word?

Love & prayers,
Kak
 
The only thing worse than Ms. Pelosi’s view on abortion is a pompous, judgemental catholic sentencing her. Remember this verse, “let ye without sin cast the first stone?” Judgement is for our Lord. We should pray for Ms. Pelosi that she find the error of her ways and ask for forigiveness from the Lord.
 
JTinIndy said:
The only thing worse than Ms. Pelosi’s view on abortion is a pompous, judgemental catholic sentencing her. Remember this verse, “let ye without sin cast the first stone?” Judgement is for our Lord. We should pray for Ms. Pelosi that she find the error of her ways and ask for forigiveness from the Lord.
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I haven’t seen anyone on this thread sentencing Pelosi to a fate worse than death. She is committing public scandal and she should be criticized publically. Yes, judgement is for the Lord and I am sure He will take care of her one way, or another. Our prayers may help alleviate her punishment, but she is responsible for her sins and she, like us, will pay in full for them.
 
JTinIndy said:
The only thing worse than Ms. Pelosi’s view on abortion is a pompous, judgemental catholic sentencing her. Remember this verse, “let ye without sin cast the first stone?” Judgement is for our Lord. We should pray for Ms. Pelosi that she find the error of her ways and ask for forigiveness from the Lord.
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What constitutes judging? If I see you on the sidewalk beating your child with a 2" x 4" and I say that is wrong you should not do that. Am I judging you? If someone asks me if you are a good parent, and I say, “I don’t think so. She beats her child.” Am I judging you. I don’t think so. Now if I said, “You are a bad person and you are going to burn in hell for all eternity.” Then, yes, I am judging you and I am usurping God’s perogative.

We are told, that “by their fruits you shall know them.” Well, we have seen Pelosi’s fruits and they are very bad. Why would we be told that by their fruits we shall know them if we are not supposed to look at their fruits and discern good from evil?
 
You must indeed be discerning in examining the fruit produced. That is not being judgmental; it is being prudent and obedient. Let no one discourage you from practicing discernment through falsely labeling it as being “judgmental.” It isn’t.

Dropping the “J” word is a frequent ploy of those who want to get away with something that usually involves playing it fast and loose (or outright ignoring) the teachings of the Church.

Blessings,

Gerry
 
Gerry:

I was reading the Mass readings yesterday, and I came across this very interesting passage in light of our discussion on judging.

KJV Leviticus 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

NAS Leviticus 19:15 You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor nor defer to the great, but you are to judge your neighbor fairly.

This suggests to me that judging is a good thing as long as it is done justly. And in fact not judging is wrong if it allows the wicked to continue in his wickedness. Perhaps we would fail in our Christian duty if we refuse to “judge” Ms. Pelosi
 
The context of those passages refer to the judgment of a court. Clearly, when it is exercised, it must be exercised justly.

From that concept, we get the notion of judgment in other matters - good judgment, bad judgment as applied to assessing situations, for example.

Where people try to shut us up and beat us down is through equivocation of the word “judgment.” Even from the bench, a magistrate judges a person guilty of an act - say, theft - rather than of being a certain kind of person -say, a thief. The equivocation comes into play when people try to accuse us of judging the person when we are judging their actions.

Judgment, like love, is a word that is easily equivocated upon, and we must not let that equivocation bully us into pretending that bad fruit is other than what it is. And of course, as you point out, we must do so with due regard for the principle of justice. In Nancy’s case, it would be unjust to assess her actions as good or bad because she, is, say, a woman, a politician, or a member of a particular party. But in saying her utterances are not faithful to the teachings of the Church we are neither judging her, nor passing judgment upon her.

Blessings,

Gerry
 
Gerry:

I agree with what you say. There is one more factor that must be taken into the interpretation of “judging”. In Hebrew legal proceedings there was no defense attorney. It was the job of the judge to act as the defense. This is why there are so many references in Scripture to judging the orphan and the widow.

Deuteronomy 10:17-19 (King James Version)

17For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

18He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.

19Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 10:17-19 (New American Standard Bible)

17"(A)For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the (B)Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God (C)who does not show partiality nor (D)take a bribe.

18"He executes justice for (E)the orphan and the widow, and shows His love for the alien by giving him food and clothing.

19"(F)So show your love for the alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt.

The orphan and widow were the most vulnerable people in Israel and their rights were to be defended and they were to be protected.

With that understanding of “judging” and rebuking your neighbor justly for their own good, could it be argued that the only loving and morally correct thing we can do is to judge Ms. Pelosi.
 
JTinIndy said:
The only thing worse than Ms. Pelosi’s view on abortion is a pompous, judgemental catholic sentencing her. Remember this verse, “let ye without sin cast the first stone?” Judgement is for our Lord. We should pray for Ms. Pelosi that she find the error of her ways and ask for forigiveness from the Lord.
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Ms.Pelosi presents herself as a devout Catholic who has the right to disagree with the Church on this issue.She does not.If she identified herself as a Catholic in Name Only or as a Cafeteria Catholic as does the Governor’s wife in California no one would really care.It would simply be par for the course and pretty typical.

However by occupying such a prominent postion as House Speaker and asserting that her position on abortion is acceptable for a “devout” Catholic she is leading others into error and causing scandal.Her soul is in JEOPARDY and her fellow Catholics especially her Bishop have a responsibility to disabuse her of her murderous notion lest THEY be judged.No pomposity,no personal judgement,however we reserve the right to correct someone who is in danger of damnation and who is giving scandal to the Body of Christ.We are OBLIGATED to do so.

Pray for her by all means.,however she must approach Christ for her forgiveness,not me,not you.Personal repentence on her part is a requirement.Something that we should all be encouraging as has Archbishop Chaput who is disciplining her with Love by telling her not to present herself for the Eucharist as he suspects what we all suspect-that she is in a state of mortal sin.Occasionally the Truth hurts.

Would you let her go to hell because you did not want to appear to be “judgemental” or because you didn’t want to hurt her feelings?Archbishop Chaput and those Catholics publicly criticising her are performing an act of MERCY.
 
Soutane said:
Ms.Pelosi presents herself as a devout Catholic who has the right to disagree with the Church on this issue.She does not.If she identified herself as a Catholic in Name Only or as a Cafeteria Catholic as does the Governor’s wife in California no one would really care.It would simply be par for the course and pretty typical.

However by occupying such a prominent postion as House Speaker and asserting that her position on abotion is acceptable for a “devout” Catholic she is leading others into error and causing scandal.Her soul is in JEOPARDY and her fellow Catholics especially her Bishop have a responsibility to disabuse her of her murderous notion lest THEY be judged.No pomposity,no personal judgement,however the right to correct someone who is in danger of damnation and who is giving scandal to the Body of Christ.
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Well said!👍
 
A deacon wrote this for me…I saved it thinking it would come in handy… Now seems like a good time to share it

People misunderstand the saying “Judge not lest you be judged.” all the time. They confuse judging the action with judging he person. When we say judgment is God’s alone, that is judgment of the person. God alone is our just judge. We would be fools to refuse to judge actions such as murder, fornication, etc as being wrong. Clearly they are. We judge the action, not the person. Simply stated. Judgment of the person belongs to God alone. We humans can judge actions by what we are taught and know is right or wrong. That is how we learn, teach our children and admonish sinners. there is no contradiction.
 
Marsha_Adams said:
Gerry:

I agree with what you say. …
With that understanding of “judging” and rebuking your neighbor justly for their own good, could it be argued that the only loving and morally correct thing we can do is to judge Ms. Pelosi.
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In that sense of the word, judging is indeed a duty of love, both to the person, and to others. How would we help if we proclaimed that Nancy, or politicians like her in North America, were Catholic role models? How would we help other Catholics?

Archbishop Chaput has performed a duty of love in his response.

There’s never a need to get nasty, but sometimes love must be tough.

Blessings,

Gerry
 
How will we find out if Pelosi stops receiving communion? Is there a blog that covers that? Or are there members here who go to her church?
 
We may never know, but our concern for that should be limited. Our duties as laity in this matter are to not be taken in by her bad example, and to ensure as best and properly as we can that those we love and care about, and interact with in our communities, are not taken in, either.

As for the wider church issues, that’s up to the Bishops. We should support and encourage them. Prelates like Archbishop Chaput should not get the feeling that their work does not resonate among the faithful.

Blessings,

Gerry
 
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