Archbishop Dolan Confronts Catholics’ Disaffection

[gurneyhalleck1]

Amen!

Dolan has just gravely hurt my trust in him and I know now not to follow anything he says because anyone that refers to God as he, she, it or whatever, is no friend of the Church, and questionably with Christ. Christ is not a woman or an it or a whatever. We’re in a dark age or relativism and political correctness with a great cost of souls. The bishops need more than just prayers. They need conversion.

 

[Frankr409]

And maybe you should consider that I had been working my butt off all day, was tired, and was typing at 10:30 at night and we all make mistakes. Ever consider that? And I would hope you don’t base talent, curriculum, delivery, and efficacy on spelling words…no need for snobby remarks Franko. I type 90 words a minute. Mistakes happen. Nuthin uh hayt mowr thayn snahbby kriticks hoo hav nuthin’ beyter tuh doo thayn nitpik uh pursun’s spelun!

If a school is so lame that they can only grant tours twice a year and not accomodate folks who are considering enrolling their kids in their school, then they’re not worth it. Enrolling a child at a Catholic school is a big decision. We’re talking hundreds of dollars per child per month and putting one’s faith in an invisible curriculum and not even being allowed to look through the campus as learning is taking place. That’s absurd. But in the end, the reputation for the school having inexperienced teachers, a rude office staff, “secret” curriculum, overloaded classrooms, insane amounts of volunteer hours, and a reputation for being behind the public schools = no thank yuh! Notice “yuh” is spelled incorrrectly for effect!

I realize that the state of California’s school system is in sorry shape, I just had no idea…As far as being behind public schools, I sincerely doubt it.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

As a convert, I don’t get worried about the numbers, but I am pleased with the return in many areas to a more traditional, orthodox approach to our catholicity. We need to be Catholic with vigor, rather than just another Christian church. We also need to reinvigorate our parishes’ outreach through charitable works.

 

[nymid]

Dolan has just gravely hurt my trust in him and I know now not to follow anything he says because anyone that refers to God as he, she, it or whatever, is no friend of the Church, and questionably with Christ. Christ is not a woman or an it or a whatever. We’re in a dark age or relativism and political correctness with a great cost of souls. The bishops need more than just prayers. They need conversion.

Very true. Here is a link to view the Archbishop’s interview where he referred to God as “him or her”. clicker.com/tv/fox-friends/Is-Superman-Catholic-1213053/

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

With all due respect, Frank, how do you have any information at all to “doubt it?” Do you live in California or my town? Do you know the API scores of some of our public schools here in town? I happen to teach in public schools. We have five schools in our town with over 800 API on the Star State testing. We have two schools approaching 900! Most of our schools are in the 700’s, like my school. We’ve been steadily going up for several years now. California has THE most rigorous curriculum in the United States hands-down. It’s brutal. That’s part of the reason California often ranks so low compared to other states—our standards are far more demanding. Just ask the kids we get from Utah or Texas or other states. The parents who come here from out of state are flaburgasted at how demanding out standards are. If you came into my sixth grade classroom and saw what we’re learning, it’d knock your socks off. I think people tend to think public school, for some reason, is this sweathogs Welcome Back Kotter environment where I’m just having the kids do Barbi coloring books all day while the kids listen to I-Pods and kick their feet up on their desks. Not so. Not by a long shot.

My wife and I regularly talk to people who have actually TAKEN their kids OUT of the catholic schools here and in the neighboring town because they are about two years behind per grade level on math and the teaching is just downright poor. The writing is actually known to be the best strength of our catholic schools around here, American history as well (which I laud!). But when it comes to language arts, math, science the catholic schools pale in comparison. I know a few folks who yanked their kids out of catholic schools and found their kids were challenged much more at the public level. My wife is in a mom’s club and the moms are mostly catholic; they have their kids at the catholic school in the neighboring town and they all talk about how far behind the kids are in math and science as well as language arts at that school. They all went to the principal throwing a fit demanding more from him. My wife knows a few teachers who substitute at the catholic schools and they say they’re well behind everyone else. My insurance agent is 26 years old. He went to our catholic school; he told us he hopes we’re not putting our kids there because he said when he went to public high school after going k-8 at the catholic school, he was LOST math and science-wise. He said everyone was clobbering him in math and he felt a ton of pressure. My best friends pulled their sons, both of them, OUT of the catholic high school because the academics were so poor AND the campus was so liberal that the public was actually better! Sad but true…My other friend went to kindergarten at the catholic school and begged his parents to pull him out and put him at the school where I teach, public. So I think before making a statement like “I doubt it,” you’d have to actually live here and talk to people, read the scores, visit the school, and know something about it.

I could never assume anything about your town’s school achievement. Why? I don’t live where you are. Incidentally I have no idea where that is. I make it a rule to not judge or evaluate unless I know the place, the curriculum, the test scores, the number of credentialed teachers, and other info.

I wouldn’t say also that California school system is in “sorry shape.” What I would say is that with all the influx of illegal immigrants we are strained and stressed to deal with the literally millions of EL’s (English-learners). If you were in the trenches, you’d see the radical toll it has taken on manpower, budget, and curriculum as well as test scores. We also have a broken budget because our state is broke. We also have more prisons than any other state. So throw in being broke, having a large population of EL’s, a huge population of kids with parents who are inmates, and not enough hours in the day, that’s the problem. The teachers I work with are excellent. I’ve worked with some losers, trust me, but they are the exception more than the rule. It’s a complex problem.

I realize that the state of California’s school system is in sorry shape, I just had no idea…As far as being behind public schools, I sincerely doubt it.

 

[Frankr409]

With all due respect, Frank, how do you have any information at all to “doubt it?” Do you live in California or my town? Do you know the API scores of some of our public schools here in town? I happen to teach in public schools. We have five schools in our town with over 800 API on the Star State testing. We have two schools approaching 900! Most of our schools are in the 700’s, like my school. We’ve been steadily going up for several years now. California has THE most rigorous curriculum in the United States hands-down. It’s brutal. That’s part of the reason California often ranks so low compared to other states—our standards are far more demanding. Just ask the kids we get from Utah or Texas or other states. The parents who come here from out of state are flaburgasted at how demanding out standards are. If you came into my sixth grade classroom and saw what we’re learning, it’d knock your socks off. I think people tend to think public school, for some reason, is this sweathogs Welcome Back Kotter environment where I’m just having the kids do Barbi coloring books all day while the kids listen to I-Pods and kick their feet up on their desks. Not so. Not by a long shot.

My wife and I regularly talk to people who have actually TAKEN their kids OUT of the catholic schools here and in the neighboring town because they are about two years behind per grade level on math and the teaching is just downright poor. The writing is actually known to be the best strength of our catholic schools around here, American history as well (which I laud!). But when it comes to language arts, math, science the catholic schools pale in comparison. I know a few folks who yanked their kids out of catholic schools and found their kids were challenged much more at the public level. My wife is in a mom’s club and the moms are mostly catholic; they have their kids at the catholic school in the neighboring town and they all talk about how far behind the kids are in math and science as well as language arts at that school. They all went to the principal throwing a fit demanding more from him. My wife knows a few teachers who substitute at the catholic schools and they say they’re well behind everyone else. My insurance agent is 26 years old. He went to our catholic school; he told us he hopes we’re not putting our kids there because he said when he went to public high school after going k-8 at the catholic school, he was LOST math and science-wise. He said everyone was clobbering him in math and he felt a ton of pressure. My best friends pulled their sons, both of them, OUT of the catholic high school because the academics were so poor AND the campus was so liberal that the public was actually better! Sad but true…My other friend went to kindergarten at the catholic school and begged his parents to pull him out and put him at the school where I teach, public. So I think before making a statement like “I doubt it,” you’d have to actually live here and talk to people, read the scores, visit the school, and know something about it.

I could never assume anything about your town’s school achievement. Why? I don’t live where you are. Incidentally I have no idea where that is. I make it a rule to not judge or evaluate unless I know the place, the curriculum, the test scores, the number of credentialed teachers, and other info.

I wouldn’t say also that California school system is in “sorry shape.” What I would say is that with all the influx of illegal immigrants we are strained and stressed to deal with the literally millions of EL’s (English-learners). If you were in the trenches, you’d see the radical toll it has taken on manpower, budget, and curriculum as well as test scores. We also have a broken budget because our state is broke. We also have more prisons than any other state. So throw in being broke, having a large population of EL’s, a huge population of kids with parents who are inmates, and not enough hours in the day, that’s the problem. The teachers I work with are excellent. I’ve worked with some losers, trust me, but they are the exception more than the rule. It’s a complex problem.

I will never understand how the voters of California allowed their state to fall into the sad malaise that it finds itself in now. Now doubt the Catholic schools are flooded with illegals as well.

Most of our Catholic schools are blue ribbon schools, and score far, far better on ISTEP tests than public schools. I have to visit Los Angeles in two week, I am honestly not looking forward to the trip, it sounds as if things are worse.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

It takes good parents, good teachers, good admin, and good students to make a good school. It’s that simple. Most of the parents in my classroom don’t know how to do the math the kids are doing and don’t even try to help them. About 2/3 of my class is divorced or shacking up, and about 1/4 are incarcerated in the state pen. A lot of parents don’t even know where the classroom is, what my name is, and won’t show up for conferences. They readily admit to putting their kids to bed way too late, feeding them food that is mostly processed garbage, and not having much structure. I don’t care if you’re the best teacher in the world, if your class is full of unsupportive parents, wild kids, and EL’s, good luck!

When studying Israel/Ancient Hebrews this trimester, only a couple kids in my whole class knew who Abraham was. None knew who David was and nobody had heard of the Davd and Goliath battle. Not one kid knew who Solomon was or any of the patriarchal stories. Nobody had heard of the 10 plagues or Exodus, nothing. When asked who betrayed Jesus last year, not one kid knew who Judas even was…it’s a blank slate we’re working with, an empty canvass sometimes…I don’t think a lot of folks in here at CAF realize how really BAD it is parents-wise out there!

I will never understand how the voters of California allowed their state to fall into the sad malaise that it finds itself in now. Now doubt the Catholic schools are flooded with illegals as well.

Most of our Catholic schools are blue ribbon schools, and score far, far better on ISTEP tests than public schools. I have to visit Los Angeles in two week, I am honestly not looking forward to the trip, it sounds as if things are worse.

 

[PbloPicasso]

Very true. Here is a link to view the Archbishop’s interview where he referred to God as “him or her”. clicker.com/tv/fox-friends/Is-Superman-Catholic-1213053/

Where can we write a letter to show our disapproval of such shameful words. My family will in no doubt rub our nose in this since they already think we’re bound to hell. This removes the possibility of being able to reach them and convince them that we are even Christian. They already consider Catholicism to be Pagan.

 

[JReducation]

I think that there is a misunderstanding here. I listened to the tape several times, at different speeds. The Archbishop does not call God “him or her”. He is citing. He said, “We’re thankful to God. Some people call him or what or whatever else. We’re thankful that someone is in control.”

This is true. Some people do call God: “him, her, or other” But he explicitly says “we’re thankful to God” at least three times and uses the masculine pronoun, except in that one instance when he is refering to what others use.

What happens is that he’s speaking so quickly that the words are slurred. If you have computer like the one that we have here in the archdiocese, where you can slow down the video to different speads and you can ask it to give you subtexts (for the hearing impaired), try that function. You’ll see that he does not call God “him or her”. He’s referring to the many ways that people refer to God. Making such a reference is not in conflict with the faith. It’s the same kind of statement as saying, “We’re thankfult to God or as others call him, Allah, Adonai or YHWH”. In other words, it’s a reference to terminology that other people use for God.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[nymid]

"We’re grateful to God. We’re conscious that somebody - some - call it him or her or whatever you want, somebody beyond us is in charge." - Archbishop Dolan

These are the exact words of the Archbishop. I would not attempt to defend him for this.

clicker.com/tv/fox-friend…holic-1213053/
video.foxnews.com/v/4433547/i…rman-catholic/
youtube.com/watch?v=-u_ZoBbn02g

Where can we write a letter to show our disapproval of such shameful words. My family will in no doubt rub our nose in this since they already think we’re bound to hell. This removes the possibility of being able to reach them and convince them that we are even Christian. They already consider Catholicism to be Pagan.

It’s tough, I know. It was suggested in the other thread that you email the Pope at benedettoxvi@vatican.va. It’s a long shot, but I guess there’s always the possibility that the right person might see it - especially if there are enough emails/letters coming in about it.

 

[graceandglory]

Archbishop Timothy M. Dolan of New York, elected president of the nation’s Roman Catholic bishops last week, said Monday that the bishops faced the urgent task of stopping the huge exodus of Roman Catholics from the church of -]their birth/-]. .the Bible…

 

[JReducation]

"We’re grateful to God. We’re conscious that somebody - some - call it him or her or whatever you want, somebody beyond us is in charge." - Archbishop Dolan

Yes, this is the quote. I typed it incorrectly. But if you notice, he’s referring to “some”. He’s not saying that this is what he calls God and he’s not calling God anything other than God. No one at the Vatican is going to get upset over a referral that he’s making to other people. That’s not a violation of any theological or moral code. It’s a reference.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Yes, this is the quote. I typed it incorrectly. But if you notice, he’s referring to “some”. He’s not saying that this is what he calls God and he’s not calling God anything other than God. No one at the Vatican is going to get upset over a referral that he’s making to other people. That’s not a violation of any theological or moral code. It’s a reference.

 

[the_phoenix]

Kudos. A fair, intelligent, honest assessment of the Church in America without the knee-jerk apologetics rhetoric that seeks to make everything seem hunky-dory. I see things much the same way. My experience with the coldness, the stoic nature, and unfriendly environment plus lousy education and a thin sense of church family is what I’ve encountered as a Catholic in this area since I was a kid. No joy, just pallid going through the motions. The Anglican and Lutheran small parishes here are exactly the opposite—inviting, friendly, warm, excited parishioners, lots of fellowship, and just plain NICE people who seem to have encountered Christ. It’s sad to see the Catholic parishes here populated with pompous, unfriendly, unavailable (trust me, unavailable is the word!), and ethnic-pandering priests and odd congregants. There’s a LOT of room for improvement!

I agree with the main gist of your post, although my experience may differ just a bit in the minor details.

I’m a cradle Catholic whose mother pulled me out of the Catholic school system in 6th grade due to the watered-down religious textbooks they were using. I suffered through a lukewarm parish growing up … and am immensely all the more grateful for my parents and grandparents who were the ones that taught me the strength and joy of my Faith by setting good example, providing wholesome spiritual reading, and sharing fun family times. I went on a pilgrimage to Fatima, Portugal on a youth pilgrimage and saw that many of the other people traveling with me also came from lukewarm parishes … and that the religious education they were being provided by “the system” was also lacking … thank God for the teaching Father Robert J. Fox gave us during our pilgrimage to Fatima, Portugal, and thank God more for the celebration of the Mass, Confession, and Rosaries this good priest made available.

I’ve definitely seen my share of parish politics up close and personal … joined groups and all that, even inviting people from the parish to my place for a Christmas party one year … After I ditched the whole “Donut Sunday” thing to instead go out into nature after Mass just me and my camera, I discovered that art galleries accept me just fine, like to see me return year after year, and fellow artists for some reason can treat me friendly.

Basically, I remain a Catholic because of Jesus Christ, the Mass, and the Sacraments. And yes, I’m still active in the Church. I’m a current member of the Adoration Team at my parish’s Perpetual Eucharistic Adoration Chapel, and have been active on the Team for several years now. And this past January I was blessed with the opportunity to attend the March for Life rally in Washington, DC with a bus sponsored by a local Catholic pro-life group.

As an individual, I will of course do what I can to help strengthen the Church. There’s no use claiming things are hunky-dory when they ain’t … Then too, that’s no excuse to just give up. It’s another call to all of us to become saints, which the world really needs right about now.

~~ the phoenix

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Great post, phoenix. Hey, you don’t name yourself after the X-Men Phoenix do you? She scares me!

I agree with the main gist of your post, although my experience may differ just a bit in the minor details.

I’m a cradle Catholic whose mother pulled me out of the Catholic school system in 6th grade due to the watered-down religious textbooks they were using. I suffered through a lukewarm parish growing up … and am immensely all the more grateful for my parents and grandparents who were the ones that taught me the strength and joy of my Faith by setting good example, providing wholesome spiritual reading, and sharing fun family times. I went on a pilgrimage to Fatima, Portugal on a youth pilgrimage and saw that many of the other people traveling with me also came from lukewarm parishes … and that the religious education they were being provided by “the system” was also lacking … thank God for the teaching Father Robert J. Fox gave us during our pilgrimage to Fatima, Portugal, and thank God more for the celebration of the Mass, Confession, and Rosaries this good priest made available.

I’ve definitely seen my share of parish politics up close and personal … joined groups and all that, even inviting people from the parish to my place for a Christmas party one year … After I ditched the whole “Donut Sunday” thing to instead go out into nature after Mass just me and my camera, I discovered that art galleries accept me just fine, like to see me return year after year, and fellow artists for some reason can treat me friendly.

Basically, I remain a Catholic because of Jesus Christ, the Mass, and the Sacraments. And yes, I’m still active in the Church. I’m a current member of the Adoration Team at my parish’s Perpetual Eucharistic Adoration Chapel, and have been active on the Team for several years now. And this past January I was blessed with the opportunity to attend the March for Life rally in Washington, DC with a bus sponsored by a local Catholic pro-life group.

As an individual, I will of course do what I can to help strengthen the Church. There’s no use claiming things are hunky-dory when they ain’t … Then too, that’s no excuse to just give up. It’s another call to all of us to become saints, which the world really needs right about now.

~~ the phoenix

 

[nymid]

Yes, this is the quote. I typed it incorrectly. But if you notice, he’s referring to “some”. He’s not saying that this is what he calls God and he’s not calling God anything other than God. No one at the Vatican is going to get upset over a referral that he’s making to other people. That’s not a violation of any theological or moral code. It’s a reference.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

The last I checked an Archbishop of the Catholic Church has a duty to preach/teach the Truth of Our Lord Jesus Christ. The Archbishop should be proclaiming that Jesus is God. He is not supposed to condone others calling Him “him or her or whatever you want”! That is condoning and promoting heresy. We’ve got a real problem here when a Catholic Archbishop cannot stand up for Jesus/The Holy Trinity. We’ve got another real problem when there are Catholics defending the indefensible. How about sticking up for God?

 

[JReducation]

The last I checked an Archbishop of the Catholic Church has a duty to preach/teach the Truth of Our Lord Jesus Christ. The Archbishop should be proclaiming that Jesus is God. He is not supposed to condone others calling Him “him or her or whatever you want”! That is condoning and promoting heresy. We’ve got a real problem here when a Catholic Archbishop cannot stand up for Jesus/The Holy Trinity. We’ve got another real problem when there are Catholics defending the indefensible. How about sticking up for God?

The man did nothing that is contrary to the faith or morals. Give him a break. Listen to Homilies by Archbishop Timothy Dolan and you’ll find a very orthodox man. In fact, he’s leading the nation in tonight’s prayer vigil for the nacent, as mandated by the Holy Father. That looks like a faithful bishop to me.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[nymid]

In fact, he’s leading the nation in tonight’s prayer vigil for the nacent, as mandated by the Holy Father.
Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Could you send me a link for this information? I googled it and I went to St. Patrick’s Cathedral’s website (and looked under this month’s events) and could not find this information. When and where will this be held?

 

[Truism]

The last I checked an Archbishop of the Catholic Church has a duty to preach/teach the Truth of Our Lord Jesus Christ. The Archbishop should be proclaiming that Jesus is God. He is not supposed to condone others calling Him “him or her or whatever you want”! That is condoning and promoting heresy. We’ve got a real problem here when a Catholic Archbishop cannot stand up for Jesus/The Holy Trinity. We’ve got another real problem when there are Catholics defending the indefensible. How about sticking up for God?

I couldn’t agree more. Once again, he knew he was being interviewed and had time to prepare his remarks beforehand. He wasn’t caught off-guard. It’s not his job to say those who worship he, she (gaia) or for that matter the devil are equal to our worship of the One True God. Those who worship a she-god or anything else, can speak for themselves. Even Abraham Lincoln, when he established Thanksgiving, established it to thank - GOD - he knew who he was thanking. The Bishop represents only one Faith and it’s his duty to uphold that Faith without question, without slowing the computer, without listening 500 times. He should make himself clear.

 

[Truism]

Furthermore, by saying he she or whatever, the implication is that they’re all equal. The Church clearly teaches that we are the One True Faith NOT just one of many faiths all equal. In our Church lies the full Truth and the Deposit of Faith. These are facts. Ecumenism notwithstanding, the truth is we are not equal - we are not the same.