Archbishop Dolan Confronts Catholics’ Disaffection

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JReducation said:
Yes, this is the quote. I typed it incorrectly. But if you notice, he’s referring to “some”. He’s not saying that this is what he calls God and he’s not calling God anything other than God. No one at the Vatican is going to get upset over a referral that he’s making to other people. That’s not a violation of any theological or moral code. It’s a reference.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
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Br Jr,
No it’s not a violation as you put it, but it is still a gross negligence of teaching truth in a public forum as an ordained Sheppard of Christianity. In the circles I come from he is not only considered a heretic for saying this but a pagan as well. The bishops do not “own” the faith. It is for all. And when he speaks publicly he has an obligation to speak truth in charity. Never have I heard someone say something so heretical to gain popular opinion. Talk about pandering. I expect that enough people will speak out against this eventually. I’ve never heard people like Archbishop Sheen say things like this. I’ve never heard a priest, other than a heretic, speak like this. But an archbishop? It breaks my heart and offends enough of us for this to carry enough weight. Some people will defend a cleric for just about anything. I know people that defended priests after hearing the stories of sexual abuse. Though this is not the same, it adds insult to injury. We’ll have to just agree to disagree on this point. We can ask God in the end.
 
Alan55 said:
I think that the Catholic Church in the U.S. has serious problems that stem from the top-down structure of the Church.

Protestant congregations generally hire and fire their pastors, and they place a great deal of importance on high-quality sermons, music, and programs for both adults and youth. Because they assume that a congregation grows not only by retaining the children of members but also, and perhaps primarily, by attracting members from other churches, they emphasize friendliness and a welcoming, user-friendly atmosphere. As a result, there is an emphasis on hospitality and new-member programs, and the results are apparent to even the most casual observer. Mega-churches get that way because people want to attend these churches, even if they preach a very demanding gospel – and they often put Catholic churches to shame with their insistence on attendance, giving, morality, service, and personal devotion (bible reading and study, prayer, self-discipline, etc.).

By contrast, many Catholic churches I’ve attended are pretty unfriendly places. The weekend services have poor music, poor preaching, and a generally slap-dash approach, whether the pastors and congregation are liberal or traditionalist. Education for children is poor and ineffective and for adults is almost non-existent. It is assumed that you were born a Catholic and have no option but to attend a Catholic Church, no matter how much abuse or neglect you endure.

I love the Church. I love the liturgy, the theological tradition, the whole nine yards. I believe that the Catholic Church is the one true Church. I’m loyal to a fault. I’ve encouraged many people to attend Catholic services and have been active in liturgy, adult religious ed, and parish leadership. But I think there are good reasons why the Church had difficult retaining life-long Catholics and attracting newcomers. And I don’t expect the solutions to come from Rome or from the Bishops. For the most part, what I’ve heard from the Pope and from the most vigorous, activist bishops is to roll back the reforms of Vatican II, weed out dissenters, and return to the authoritarian “Father knows best” approach of the 1950s and 1960s – an McCarthy-tinged authoritarian purge. I think that’s exactly the wrong answer. The authorities don’t seem to have a clue how to preach the message of Christ in our day.
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Read the Book “The Desolate City”, Revolution in the Catholic Church by Anne Roche Muggeridge. Perhaps it will help clarify for you why “dissenters” must be weeded out. The Father Knows Best approach is still alive and well. You know, the Pope in Rome? It’s now evident, however, that most Bishops, clergy and laity don’t know he is still in charge. The most ignored man in the West.

Don’t know if you remember the “good old days” of Mother Church, when all hierarchy, clergy and laity agreed that giving the Eucharist to PUBLIC sinners was a sacrilege and scandal, that everyone knew abortion was wrong, there is no possibilty of being Catholic and Pro Choice, that if someone had a Mass with folks dancing in the aisles, the paddy wagon would have been called, or if a priest dressed up for Mass in a Halloween costume every Catholic would have walked out the door.

Don’t remember? Well that is what has happened within what was once a united Catholic Church. I’ll take the “good old days” back in a NYC minute.
 
Alan55 said:
I think that the Catholic Church in the U.S. has serious problems that stem from the top-down structure of the Church.

Protestant congregations generally hire and fire their pastors, and they place a great deal of importance on high-quality sermons, music, and programs for both adults and youth. Because they assume that a congregation grows not only by retaining the children of members but also, and perhaps primarily, by attracting members from other churches, they emphasize friendliness and a welcoming, user-friendly atmosphere. As a result, there is an emphasis on hospitality and new-member programs, and the results are apparent to even the most casual observer. Mega-churches get that way because people want to attend these churches, even if they preach a very demanding gospel – and they often put Catholic churches to shame with their insistence on attendance, giving, morality, service, and personal devotion (bible reading and study, prayer, self-discipline, etc.).

By contrast, many Catholic churches I’ve attended are pretty unfriendly places. The weekend services have poor music, poor preaching, and a generally slap-dash approach, whether the pastors and congregation are liberal or traditionalist. Education for children is poor and ineffective and for adults is almost non-existent. It is assumed that you were born a Catholic and have no option but to attend a Catholic Church, no matter how much abuse or neglect you endure.

I love the Church. I love the liturgy, the theological tradition, the whole nine yards. I believe that the Catholic Church is the one true Church. I’m loyal to a fault. I’ve encouraged many people to attend Catholic services and have been active in liturgy, adult religious ed, and parish leadership. But I think there are good reasons why the Church had difficult retaining life-long Catholics and attracting newcomers. And I don’t expect the solutions to come from Rome or from the Bishops. For the most part, what I’ve heard from the Pope and from the most vigorous, activist bishops is to roll back the reforms of Vatican II, weed out dissenters, and return to the authoritarian “Father knows best” approach of the 1950s and 1960s – an McCarthy-tinged authoritarian purge. I think that’s exactly the wrong answer. The authorities don’t seem to have a clue how to preach the message of Christ in our day.
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PbloPicasso said:
Br Jr,
No it’s not a violation as you put it, but it is still a gross negligence of teaching truth in a public forum as an ordained Sheppard of Christianity. In the circles I come from he is not only considered a heretic for saying this but a pagan as well. The bishops do not “own” the faith. It is for all. And when he speaks publicly he has an obligation to speak truth in charity. Never have I heard someone say something so heretical to gain popular opinion. Talk about pandering. I expect that enough people will speak out against this eventually. I’ve never heard people like Archbishop Sheen say things like this. I’ve never heard a priest, other than a heretic, speak like this. But an archbishop? It breaks my heart and offends enough of us for this to carry enough weight. Some people will defend a cleric for just about anything. I know people that defended priests after hearing the stories of sexual abuse. Though this is not the same, it adds insult to injury. We’ll have to just agree to disagree on this point. We can ask God in the end.
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Well that’s Dolan for you. A politcal player. What else can he be when he will not deny the Eucharist to public officials who say they are Catholic, but support abortion, PUBLICALLY? When will these guys get some spine?
 
nymid said:
Could you send me a link for this information? I googled it and I went to St. Patrick’s Cathedral’s website (and looked under this month’s events) and could not find this information. When and where will this be held?
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It’s at the Cathedral’s vigil mass. The information has not made most diocesan websites, including my own diocese, because the Holy Father sent the word out about 10 days ago. Many web pages do not get updated that quickly Some are updated only monthly. We do our page every 14-days, because it’s not done by us. It’s someone else who does it for us.

The parishes know about it, because memos were sent out by the bishops via email to their parishes. From there, it was up to the parishes to put it into last Sunday’s buletin. I know that some parishes send their buletins out to print by Wed. I can’t promise that every parish would have received the information on time. But I do know that many did and they published it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
elts1956 said:
Well that’s Dolan for you. A politcal player. What else can he be when he will not deny the Eucharist to public officials who say they are Catholic, but support abortion, PUBLICALLY? When will these guys get some spine?
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Do you realize the seriousness of what you wrote? Archbishop Dolan has never supported abortion. In fact, he is has been a staunch defender of the right to life. You are stating something this is categorically not true and hurting someone’s good name in the process.

We can disagree with bishops who do not deny Holy Communion to pro-abortion politicians, but we cannot allege that they are pro abortion. The two are not the same.

This question was raised before Cardinal Arinze. The Cardinal said that Holy Communion should be withheld and as far as he was concerned, the rules did not require explanation.

When he was asked what he or the other cardinals at the Vatican were going to do about the bishops who did not withhold Holy Communion, he chuckled and asked the person, “What do you want us to do. Do you want us to send 12 Swiss Guards to arrest them?” He did not say that the bishps were pro-abortion, because they did not withhold Holy Communion. He said that they were not in compliance with the rule. There is a difference between being out of compliance with a rule, because you disagree with the good that the rule can achieve and it’s quite another to be pro-abortion. That’s the truth in this matter. Many bishops question the good that will be achieved by doing this. Some are concerned that the Communion Station will become a public display. We can disagree with their assessment. But we cannot go as far as stating lies about them. That’s doing damage to a person’s good name.

Even Cardinal Arinze, who does not mince words, was very reserved on passing judgment. He acknowledged that the rule was not being followed and admitted that nothing can be done by the Vatican. They simply have to continue to dialogue with the bishops who question the rule to either a) get to the point where the bishops understand the benefit of the rule or b) get to the point where they, at the Vatican, understand the bishops’ concerns. Obviously, one side is right and the other is not. Maybe there is another solution that neither side has thought about. So, the dialogue continues. But no one has called these bishops “pro-abortion.”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JReducation said:
The information has not made most diocesan websites, including my own diocese, because the Holy Father sent the word out about 10 days ago.
Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
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Brother: Your misinformation concerns me. First you “re-interpreted” what Archbishop Dolan said in his Fox interview comments. Now you are saying that the Holy Father sent the word out about today’s Prayer Vigil about 10 days ago. I was at a Mass on October 30th when the Priest mentioned the Prayer Vigil from the altar. I checked the USCCB website on November 1 and all the information about the Prayer Vigil was posted.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by elts1956
Well that’s Dolan for you. A politcal player. What else can he be when he will not deny the Eucharist to public officials who say they are Catholic, but support abortion, PUBLICALLY? When will these guys get some spine?
JReducation said:
Do you realize the seriousness of what you wrote? Archbishop Dolan has never supported abortion. In fact, he is has been a staunch defender of the right to life. You are stating something this is categorically not true and hurting someone’s good name in the process.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
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How could you accuse elts1956 of saying that Abp. Dolan supports abortion? No such thing was said.

Dolan has publicly stated, unapologetically, that he will not uphold Canon 915. Let’s see what the faithful Cardinal Burke has to say about that…

Burke: "I think it’s only natural to be tempted to discouragement, and I’ve had those temptations — for instance, on the question of a person who publicly and obstinately espouses the right of a woman to choose to abort the infant in her womb receiving Holy Communion, strikes me as something very clear in the 2,000 years of the church’s tradition — she’s always firmly held that a person who is publicly and obstinately in grave sin should not approach to receive Holy Communion and, if he or she does, should be denied Holy Communion.

[Emphasis added] It is discouraging that either members of the church claim not to understand this, or they claim that in some way there is an excuse for someone who is publicly and obstinately in grave sin to receive Holy Communion."

abyssum.wordpress.com/2010/11/22/raymond-cardinal-burke-sticks-to-his-guns-on-the-enforcement-of-canon-915/
 
nymid said:
Brother: Your misinformation concerns me. First you “re-interpreted” what Archbishop Dolan said in his Fox interview comments. Now you are saying that the Holy Father sent the word out about today’s Prayer Vigil about 10 days ago. I was at a Mass on October 30th when the Priest mentioned the Prayer Vigil from the altar. I checked the USCCB website on November 1 and all the information about the Prayer Vigil was posted.
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I’m telling you what I know from the best of my knowledge. We heard about it 10-14 days ago via email. Even if it was on the USCCB site on Nov 1, that does not mean that the diocesan site will be updated. That really depends on the webmaster and what service they have.

As to the bishop’s comment. I’m not misinterpreting it. I’m telling you how I understand it. To me, it’s a reference, not a personal statement.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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Members are reminded to be respectful of the clergy at all times. It is not the place of CAF members to pass judgement upon the clergy and to label some as faithful and some as not faithful.

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nymid said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by elts1956
Well that’s Dolan for you. A politcal player. What else can he be when he will not deny the Eucharist to public officials who say they are Catholic, but support abortion, PUBLICALLY? When will these guys get some spine?

How could you accuse elts1956 of saying that Abp. Dolan supports abortion? No such thing was said.
I apologize. Now that you pointed it out, I have reread the post and I read it incorrectly. Having said this, I also believe that there is a lot of fault-finding when it comes to Archbishop Dolan. He’s getting attacked for the closing of schools, the pro-abortion politician, the reference he made to how others, not he, refer to God. Give this man a break.
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The question that was put to Cardinal Arinze was about those bishops who question the law on this issue. As I said, the Cardinal said that the Curia disagrees with them. But he also asked, “What do you expect us to do about it, send 12 Swiss Guards to arrest them?”

The only thing left to do here is to dialogue until someone convinces someone or another solution is found. Carindal Arinze’s question has validity. What do we epxect Cardinal Burke to do? He cannot fire a bishop. Only the pope can do that. The pope is not eager to do it. He prefers to dialogue with them until they have some kind of resolution. I don’t see what else we can suggest that would be better than the dialogue.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
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nymid said:
We’ve got another real problem when there are Catholics defending the indefensible.
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No, we got a REAL problem when Catholics have trouble promoting unity in the Church :(. Charismatic, traditional, I don’t care what you are, we are ONE Church! I asked you in another thread to build up the Kingdom!

As other posters have pointed out, this man, Archbishop Timothy Dolan, has not said or done anything that goes against Church Teaching. (Quite the contrary if you ask me.) So, please, bring whatever issues you are having with him to prayer. It is many times easy to see who is for Christ and who is against Him – prayer and holding no anger in our hearts will help us see that.

Remember: the Pharisees thought Jesus was quite a sight to behold…but they were focusing on rules, regulations, observances. Why, I ask you, was Jesus, our Lord and Savior, disappointing to them?
 
“call it him, her, whatever you want”

There is no way, given the rules of CAF, to comment upon this statement in a Catholic way. It is beyond discourse. It is an outrage. God cannot be discussed in this way.
 
JReducation said:
nymid;7311611:
Quote:
Originally Posted by elts1956
The only thing left to do here is to dialogue until someone convinces someone or another solution is found. Carindal Arinze’s question has validity.** What do we expect Cardinal Burke to do? **
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He cannot fire a bishop. Only the pope can do that. The pope is not eager to do it. He prefers to dialogue with them until they have some kind of resolution. I don’t see what else we can suggest that would be better than the dialogue.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Stoning comes to mind…😉

Of course that’s ridiculous, but I couldn’t resist.😛 Of course we have to put up with it to a point. But those of us who reject such things will scream until he retires on his own or can’t handle it anymore. Orthodoxy is on the front lines. If he knows what’s good for him, he’ll back pedal enough to save his face. Just my opinion. Playing political games like this will surely get you stoned anyway.
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lil_flower_luv said:
As other posters have pointed out, this man, Archbishop Timothy Dolan, has not said or done anything that goes against Church Teaching. (Quite the contrary if you ask me.) So, please, bring whatever issues you are having with him to prayer. It is many times easy to see who is for Christ and who is against Him – prayer and holding no anger in our hearts will help us see that.

Remember: the Pharisees thought Jesus was quite a sight to behold…but they were focusing on rules, regulations, observances. Why, I ask you, was Jesus, our Lord and Savior, disappointing to them?
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First of all, Jesus never refered to His father in heaven as “something, he, she or whatever”. Secondly, unity does not include accepting heresy. And lastly, Dolan did do something wrong by blaspheming against God from my understanding of the meaning.

You obviously don’t have the same issues as some of us. My Protestant family will eat us alive at the next family reunion over this statement. I have a feeling and great hope that Dolan will have to own up to using these terms. I have a feeling he meant it figuratively, however, the cost is too high for some of us to endure.
 
lil_flower_luv said:
What heresy?
As of right now, I only have an issue with those who have an issue with the Abp. and Church clergy who have done NOTHING WRONG.
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no comments. Sorry if I offended anyone, but it is obvious that no one is allowed to speak their minds of how they feel or how these things will adversely affect their own lives. I feel that only some people matter and that clericalism continues to rule as the sole rule. Laity don’t count.
 
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