Archbishop Dolan on Immigration Reform

[pnewton]

If it takes the government employees an hour to file all the necessary documents (I bet it takes longer) and there are 1 Million legally immigrating residents per year, that’s at least ONE MILLION MAN HOURS. There has to be a cap on how many people are allowed to immigrate here per year, just by virtue of the fact that there aren’t enough people or time!.

I think you bring up some good points. On the other hand, deportation is not a freebie and may be more expensive. In addition to deportation hearings which tie up a team of people for each hearing, you have the actual cost of airflight.

 

[Crumpy]

The United States has been nothing if not generous towards legal and illegal Mexican immigrants. The question seems to be, whether a wholesale invasion of the U.S. by Mexicans can be sustained, and I think the answer is no.

I am not zenophobic, but why can’t Mexicans stay in Mexico and fix Mexico? Why do they expect us to accept all their problems, including the drug wars that are taking place right on our borders?

Why would U.S. citizens be expected to sit back and just allow that to happen? Mexico wouldn’t want that to happen, if the situation were reversed. IF there were twenty million illegal “Americans” in Mexico, they’d start a war with us. They wouldn’t want us there. What if THEY had free health care? Would they want us rushing down there to get it?

I don’t think so.

 

[The_Magisterium]

Immigration Reform

"And, here we go again! Arizona is so scared, apparently, and so convinced that the #1 threat to society today is the immigrant that it has passed a mean-spirited bill of doubtful constitutionality that has as its intention the expulsion of the immigrant.

What history teaches us, of course, is that not only are such narrow-minded moves unfair and usually unconstitutional, but they are counterproductive and harmful."

How is it “mean spirited” if we remove people who have formally rejected/violated the Laws of our Nation by coming here ilegally?

Without Laws, there’s anarchy. Not enforcing Laws gives material support to anarchy.

The bishop should stick to tending the flock of this country, which has been so incredibly led astray by various episcopate’s allowance of theological wolves into the den of the faithful.

After he’s rooted out all the heretical priests, theologians, etc., from the Church … then let him worry about immigration reform.

 

[Badaliyyah]

The bishops who have commented thus far, including Abp Dolan, seem to be following, with great consistency, the USCCB statement on immigration “Unity in Diversity” which is itself a statement on how to understand Catholic social teaching on immigration in the US setting. Catholic social teaching sets out what are two competing interests. On the one hand it affirms the right of persons to migrate (beginning with Rerum Novarum, but of particular interest during the Cold War); on the other it affirms the need for states to regulate their borders. So on the one hand, people need to be able to move relatively freely to pursue the best possible life for themselves, and on the other, the bishops recognize that massive displacements of population are often more than one country can handle.

“Unity in Diversity” expresses great concern that every consideration be given to make sure that even undocumented immigrants have access to basic protections without fear of reprisal. This would mean keeping a pretty strict separation between law enforcement and immigration enforcement, which the United States has generally tried to do (in keeping with Catholic social teaching).

USCCB, Welcoming the Stranger Among Us: Unity in Diversity

 

[JReducation]

I posted this someplace else, but I believe that it fits well in here too.

As a religious, I can tell you that the immigration issue is tricky. The Church has rules that the bishops, priests, deacons, sisters, brothers and laity must follow. But the Church is not a government agency; therefore, she does not have the experience of government or the tools to implement its rule.

Here is where the problem gets worse. The state, especially the Europeans, Canadians, Americans and Mexicans are very anti-clerical and very arrogant. They do not want to take their cues from the Catholic Church. This gets even more interesting and frustrating for the Church. Let’s limit this to the USA. Forget everyone else.

In the USA our government and our citizens, including Catholics refuse to take any kind of advice from our bishops. There is a hostility that you can cut with a knife. However, even with all the tough back-talk that we give to Catholic bishops in the USA, including Catholics, have you ever noticed how we back-off very quickly when we are challenged by Muslims and Jews?

I believe there are two reasons. The first is financial. Let’s face it, despite our difficulties with the Middle East, they have a lot of power in our economy. For example, the Arab nations own the East coast of Florida from Miami to West Palm Beach. Most of the tourism industry and resorts in what is called the God Coast is owned by the UAE. The Jewish community has a very powerful lobby in Congress and Israel is a key to American interests in the Middle East. If we lose the support of the Jews in the USA, we risk losing the benefits that we get from having an ally in the middle of the Middle East.

I said there were two reasons why we back down to Jews and Muslims. The second one is terror. We are terrified of retaliation from radical Muslim terrorists. We all know that Muslims are a good and kind people. We have them as neighbors and they are just like everyone else. But their radical terrorist compatriots will use any excuse to retaliate against us. So if we shot down a spokes group of Muslim Americans, it would not be the Muslim Americans who would shoot back. It would be the terrorists who are always looking for an opportunity to prove how horrible we are.

In the end, the only religious group that we can disrespect, offend, ignore, question, challenge and even threaten is the Catholics. The Catholic Church does not represent a powerful financial interest for us, because the Church does not control the money of her people and Catholics are not as economically committed to the Catholic Church as Jews are to Judaism and Israel. The Catholic bishops, clergy and religious have no terrorist cousins waiting in the wings for an opportunity and excuse to bomb us.

I’m not saying that the bishops are always right. I’m saying that we are not always right either. What is worse is that Catholic lay people are very blind to the fact that they are the only religious group that turns on their own religious leaders. Having been born Jewish and converted to Catholicism, I know this for a fact. A Jew or a Muslim would cut off his tongue before making any public comment that would allow non-Jews and non-Muslims to chime in on the attack against their leaders. They have a very strong sense of family. They can call each other on the carpet, but God help you if you do it. You’re not family. So when they do it, they do it in private. When Catholics call their leaders on the carpet, they do in public and they lend support to non-Catholics to do the same. We become materially complicit in the anti-Catholic movement, even though we profess to be Catholic.

That being said, I don’t know how much talking we Catholics can do about the immigration reform that is needed in this country, because we also need an internal reform. We need to take the good example from where ever it comes. In this case, it’s coming from the Jewish and Islamic world. They have a deep sense of respect and protectiveness toward their leaders, regardless of what they fight about in private. They don’t make it public and they do not welcome outsiders involved in their “family disputes”.

Maybe it’s time that we do as John Paul II said. We must look at Islam and Judaism and see that there are some divine truths there too, which have been revealed to Catholics, but we have failed to see them because they’re too close to home. Maybe if we look at someone else’s house, we may learn how to handle our own family affairs.

When we learn to talk to our family members with respect and keep our screaming and hollering from the neighbors, then maybe we can discuss this very complex issue without destroying our image and giving others an opening so they can attack our faith and our Church.

As to whether the Archbishop is right or wrong, my order’s policy is very simple. When the pope, the bishops or the major superior speak, the friars shall be like corpses and withhold their opinions, wishes and desires on all matters unless given permission to speak. They should remember the silence of Mary at the foot of the cross and surrender themselves to the cross as she did.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[rodomonte]

I’m not saying that the bishops are always right. I’m saying that we are not always right either. What is worse is that Catholic lay people are very blind to the fact that they are the only religious group that turns on their own religious leaders. Having been born Jewish and converted to Catholicism, I know this for a fact. A Jew or a Muslim would cut off his tongue before making any public comment that would allow non-Jews and non-Muslims to chime in on the attack against their leaders. They have a very strong sense of family. They can call each other on the carpet, but God help you if you do it. You’re not family. So when they do it, they do it in private. When Catholics call their leaders on the carpet, they do in public and they lend support to non-Catholics to do the same. We become materially complicit in the anti-Catholic movement, even though we profess to be Catholic.

That being said, I don’t know how much talking we Catholics can do about the immigration reform that is needed in this country, because we also need an internal reform. We need to take the good example from where ever it comes. In this case, it’s coming from the Jewish and Islamic world. They have a deep sense of respect and protectiveness toward their leaders, regardless of what they fight about in private. They don’t make it public and they do not welcome outsiders involved in their “family disputes”.

When we learn to talk to our family members with respect and keep our screaming and hollering from the neighbors, then maybe we can discuss this very complex issue without destroying our image and giving others an opening so they can attack our faith and our Church.

As to whether the Archbishop is right or wrong, my order’s policy is very simple. When the pope, the bishops or the major superior speak, the friars shall be like corpses and withhold their opinions, wishes and desires on all matters unless given permission to speak. They should remember the silence of Mary at the foot of the cross and surrender themselves to the cross as she did.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Different Muslim sects are killing each other’s clerics in Iraq, so I don’t know how you come to the conclusion that Muslims don’t criticize their leaders. Jews sometimes kill each other over political disagreements.

I don’t accept your statement that I am materially complicit in the anti-Catholic movement because I disagree with my Bishop’s position on illegal immigration. I confine my criticism of my Bishops to this forum, and don’t take it to secular forums. In fact, I have been banned from a secular anti-illegal immigration forum because some posters sought to attack the Church for the abuse scandal and I told them that was old news and unrelated to the Church’s position on illegal immigration. But that was before the latest revelations from abroad. Furthermore, I don’t see any attacks on the Church on the secular immigration forums I frequent.

I would say it is the Bishops themselves who are responsible for any scandal over this fundamentally political issue, not the members of their flock who must, in good conscience and as good Americans, disagree with them.

No immigration reform is necessary. We only need to enforce existing immigration laws and secure our border, preferably with the 700 mile double-layer fence that was authorized in 2005, but only has 35 miles completed. There is no moral imperative to let our nation be undermined by 20 million or so illegal immigrants with a different culture and language who really want to replace our culture and language with theirs in as much of our country as possible. Ironically, they want to come here because America is a great country, but they are a major factor contributing to the decline of America.

BTW, I have tremendous respect for you for the vows you have taken and the rules you must follow. Most of us don’t have that kind of inner strength.

 

[Aramis]

In the end, the only religious group that we can disrespect, offend, ignore, question, challenge and even threaten is the Catholics. The Catholic Church does not represent a powerful financial interest for us, because the Church does not control the money of her people and Catholics are not as economically committed to the Catholic Church as Jews are to Judaism and Israel. The Catholic bishops, clergy and religious have no terrorist cousins waiting in the wings for an opportunity and excuse to bomb us.

The Mormons receive much the same treatment… albeit smaller scale… and much bias based upon their historical (but not present) support for polygamy, and their schismatic splinters who still practice it.

And Jews are often openly critical of their leadership… but the media doesn’t care. So one doesn’t hear much about it.

Bishop Dolan has taken an interesting approach, but one that is inconsistent with both the instructions to follow just laws and with the good of the country as a whole. Unless, of course, one considers any restrictions on immigration to be unjust… and that’s the impression the Bishop gives.

Every illegal immigrant is, by law, committing a crime. That makes them 100% criminals.

Forgive their sins? Sure.
Get upset that they are being deported as the law requires? No bloody chance.
Allow them to stay? No, except for special cases.

And harboring illegals should be punished exactly the same as harboring fugitives… since the truth is, every illegal is a fugitive.

 

[JReducation]

Different Muslim sects are killing each other’s clerics in Iraq, so I don’t know how you come to the conclusion that Muslims don’t criticize their leaders. Jews sometimes kill each other over political disagreements.

But if you notice, they don’t tolerate any commentary from the outside. We know about it from a distance. But if we said something critical about their religious leaders in here or in Europe, there would be hell to pay. Remember the cartoonist who was threatened? Also remember the mess that the Pope got into for a quote that was not even his statement? They don’t tolerate outside commentating too well. What I’ve noticed is that we respect that. Just last week someone in London made a wise crack about a Jew and Muslim. You know the typical joke, “there was a pries, rabbi and minister on a boat” kind of joke, but this was a Jew and a Muslim and the British government quickly rushed to apologize. Why is that? Because they know that these folks have counsins that are not very nice and don’t play nicely.

I don’t accept your statement that I am materially complicit in the anti-Catholic movement because I disagree with my Bishop’s position on illegal immigration. I confine my criticism of my Bishops to this forum, and don’t take it to secular forums.

But even on CAF, we’re not in a private Catholic enviornment. There are many non-Catholics here who feed off of these disputes and arguments and then throw it back in our faces, just like someone tried to throw the sex-abuse scandal in your face. Even the sex-abuse scandal in Europe is decades old. They discovered it yesterday, but it did not happen yesterday. We have to be very protective of our Church. The laity certainly has a right to ask questions and ask for clarifications. I saw that some people at the bottom of the article did ask some very interesting and intelligent questions. But some just rant on and on, feeding fuel to the fire of the anti-Catholic sentiment. I’m not accusing you personally, because I don’t know you. I’m simply stating that too many Catholics don’t listen to themselves or stop to listen to themselves from the point of view of a non-Catholic.

My father was a career diplomat and his last post was an ambassador in the Middle East. I grew up in the enviornment of diplomacy. This is something that the State Dept still does and so do the Arme Forces. Military families and State Dept families can end up in jail or pay fines is they say anything negative about the US government within earshot of a non American when we are abroad.

I’m not saying that the Church must throw people into the dungeon. But I do believe that there is wisdom in holding one’s tongue and reserving one’s questions and comments for private communication with the bishops and other Church leaders. In fact, the Church has a system built in for this. People can write to their local bishop with their concerns, to the President of the Confeence or to Cardinal Laveda at the Sacred Congregation for the Faith and they do get a response.

No immigration reform is necessary.

I believe we need immigration reform for two reasons. First, what we have in palce is obviously not working. Either it’s too hard to implement and it just fizzled out or someone decided that it will not work. In either case, when this happens, you have to go back to the drawing board and ask what happened and what needs to be done differenlty to make it work.

BTW, I have tremendous respect for you for the vows you have taken and the rules you must follow. Most of us don’t have that kind of inner strength.

Like I said, it’s an ancient monastic rule that dates back about 1500 years. But it is a very good rules for several reasons. It allows you to focus on what’s important, which is the life of prayer and the salvation of your soul and that of others. It develops character by developing interior discipline, almost like the Marines. Except that our supeiors don’t get in your face and are very brotherly.

When a superior sees that something is bothering you he calls you in and you can voice your concerns to him. Right now I’m the superior of a house with three brothers under me. I spend a lot of time listening to their concerns about many of these issues. But they don’t know what each other is thinking. Because in public they never mention their opinions or their wishes.

The superior is truly a Father. He disciplines but he also does everything else that a fathe must do. I have to stay up all night when a brother has a cold. When it’s cold, I have to get up and make sure that everyone is sleeping comfortably so that no one catches a cold. When some one needs new habit, I have to make sure that he gets one, because we never ask for things for ourselves. You are a servant-father. You take your turn washing everyone’s dishes and cleaning everyone’s rooms, just like your mom does at home.

Hopefully, if I don’t get re-elected superior, I will be leaving on a mission to Miami to start a new foundation of brothers who will live in a tent or under a bridge until we can get enough moeny to rent a place. But the goal is to protect the vulnerable: in other words, teach a man to fish, but while he’s learning, you have to feed him.

That’s why I read these articles, so that I can share with the brothes what is happening out there and so I can share with the laity another approach and perspective to the problems. My duty is not to impose my opinion, but to teach the spirit of St. Francis and the early monks and friars of the Church. We have to recover our Catholic roots or we will be lost in a world of secularism.

Sorry, didn’t mean to bore you with so much information.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

The Mormons receive much the same treatment… albeit smaller scale… and much bias based upon their historical (but not present) support for polygamy, and their schismatic splinters who still practice it.

And Jews are often openly critical of their leadership… but the media doesn’t care. So one doesn’t hear much about it.

Bishop Dolan has taken an interesting approach, but one that is inconsistent with both the instructions to follow just laws and with the good of the country as a whole. Unless, of course, one considers any restrictions on immigration to be unjust… and that’s the impression the Bishop gives.

Every illegal immigrant is, by law, committing a crime. That makes them 100% criminals.

And harboring illegals should be punished exactly the same as harboring fugitives… since the truth is, every illegal is a fugitive.

The bold is mine. We have to be very careful here. Crimes are not necessarily sins. The Church has a long tadition of protecting criminals, dating back to the Apostles themselves. Once upon a time, our people were criminals for believing in Christ. They were criminals when they challenged kings and states, sucha as Thomas More and Joan of Arc. Today, if you’re in a Muslim country, it is a crime to convert to Christianity or Judaism. The Church protects these criminals by offering them safe passage out of these countries.

On the other hand, we have legalized many crimes: abortion, infanticide, euthanasia, same-sex marriage, capital punishment.

What is criminal is not always a sin and what is a sin is not always a crime. Our conscineces must never be guided by civil law. They must drive civil law. As Catholics it is our duty to teach government moral principals and moral methods of implementing laws. Sometimes you get the case where the intention of the law is good, but the application is not.

The Church would never disagree with the idea of securing borders to protect the sovereignty of nations and to protect tthe immigrants who cross illegally and get abused or taken advantage of. At the same time, the Church also teaches that when someone comes to our door and asks for help, we do not turn our backs. That’s from Christ himself. We don’t want to protect criminals who do actual harm to others. But protecting those who are desperately trying to find a beter life is a moral duty. We must protect and show them how to do it. Teach them to fish.

While crossing a border without a visa is a civil crime, the Church has made it clear that it is never a sin unless your intention is to do harm, such as those who cross with drugs, weapons or terrorists.

The Church would also caution us to remember that there are more heinous crimes being committed in our own country and that we cannot ignore those and only attend to the things that affect us directly. The protection of the unborn must be our top priority, even over our own security The unborn are more hepless than we are. When you have 300,000 show up for a life march on Washington, but you have 200 millioin cry out about the borders, you have to challenge and say where were those 200 million voices during the march for life?

It’s not a a matter that those 200 million don’t have a right to safety and emplioyment etc. But it’s a matter that those 200 million must raise their voices against all forms of danger. The Church begins to wonder why don’t we shout as loudly for the rights of the unborn, against infanticide, against euthanasia, against embryonic stem cell research, against same-sex marriages, against government coverups of child sexual abuse, which is no big secret.

This has nothing to do with immigration, but it’s a point that may help you understand that Church’s side. After all the commotion and criticism thrown at the Church in 2001-02 for the sexual abuses of 20 or 30 years ago and the accusations of cover-up. After the current adminisration was elected, Planned Parenthood as the federal government not to hold them to oblige them to report sexual abuse of minors. Many young girls come into their centers pregnant, seeking abortions. Often they are minors but the fathers of their babies are legal adults. The law says that this must be reported. The federal government gave Planned Parenthood a waiver. They do not have to report it. The argument is that if the girls know that Planned Parenthood will report it, they will not seek “healthcare”, abortions. However, religious pregnancy centers run by Catholics and other groups, must report it. We’re the ones who are trying to help the girls bring their babies into the world.

The point is that good citizenship is not always good. The second point is that the same 200 million who raise their voices about the security of our borders, which is a legitimate concern, should also raise their voices about these things. At least the 25 million Catholics in this country should and they don’t. This thing with Planned Parenthood was slipped under the radar and most people didn’t even undestand the gravity of the consequences. An adult can impregnate a girl and get away with it, so as not to stop her from getting an abortion.

My hope is that the same 25 million Catholics wo are supportive of tougher immigration laws will also show their face and raise their voices in support of the unborn, the sick, elderly and against government protected sexual abuse of minors in order to facilitate abortions.

The other point in the same arena was that our government could have spent millions on protecting the borders, but they decided to give it to other countries for abortions. Remember the Mexico City ban that President Obama lifted?

When we say why is it that our immigration plans and policies don’t work, we have to ask where is the money going?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[kimmielittle]

The bold is mine. We have to be very careful here. Crimes are not necessarily sins. The Church has a long tadition of protecting criminals, dating back to the Apostles themselves. Once upon a time, our people were criminals for believing in Christ. They were criminals when they challenged kings and states, sucha as Thomas More and Joan of Arc. Today, if you’re in a Muslim country, it is a crime to convert to Christianity or Judaism. The Church protects these criminals by offering them safe passage out of these countries.

On the other hand, we have legalized many crimes: abortion, infanticide, euthanasia, same-sex marriage, capital punishment.

What is criminal is not always a sin and what is a sin is not always a crime. Our conscineces must never be guided by civil law. They must drive civil law. As Catholics it is our duty to teach government moral principals and moral methods of implementing laws. Sometimes you get the case where the intention of the law is good, but the application is not.

The Church would never disagree with the idea of securing borders to protect the sovereignty of nations and to protect tthe immigrants who cross illegally and get abused or taken advantage of. At the same time, the Church also teaches that when someone comes to our door and asks for help, we do not turn our backs. That’s from Christ himself. We don’t want to protect criminals who do actual harm to others. But protecting those who are desperately trying to find a beter life is a moral duty. We must protect and show them how to do it. Teach them to fish.

While crossing a border without a visa is a civil crime, the Church has made it clear that it is never a sin unless your intention is to do harm, such as those who cross with drugs, weapons or terrorists.

The Church would also caution us to remember that there are more heinous crimes being committed in our own country and that we cannot ignore those and only attend to the things that affect us directly. The protection of the unborn must be our top priority, even over our own security The unborn are more hepless than we are. When you have 300,000 show up for a life march on Washington, but you have 200 millioin cry out about the borders, you have to challenge and say where were those 200 million voices during the march for life?

It’s not a a matter that those 200 million don’t have a right to safety and emplioyment etc. But it’s a matter that those 200 million must raise their voices against all forms of danger. The Church begins to wonder why don’t we shout as loudly for the rights of the unborn, against infanticide, against euthanasia, against embryonic stem cell research, against same-sex marriages, against government coverups of child sexual abuse, which is no big secret.

This has nothing to do with immigration, but it’s a point that may help you understand that Church’s side. After all the commotion and criticism thrown at the Church in 2001-02 for the sexual abuses of 20 or 30 years ago and the accusations of cover-up. After the current adminisration was elected, Planned Parenthood as the federal government not to hold them to oblige them to report sexual abuse of minors. Many young girls come into their centers pregnant, seeking abortions. Often they are minors but the fathers of their babies are legal adults. The law says that this must be reported. The federal government gave Planned Parenthood a waiver. They do not have to report it. The argument is that if the girls know that Planned Parenthood will report it, they will not seek “healthcare”, abortions. However, religious pregnancy centers run by Catholics and other groups, must report it. We’re the ones who are trying to help the girls bring their babies into the world.

The point is that good citizenship is not always good. The second point is that the same 200 million who raise their voices about the security of our borders, which is a legitimate concern, should also raise their voices about these things. At least the 25 million Catholics in this country should and they don’t. This thing with Planned Parenthood was slipped under the radar and most people didn’t even undestand the gravity of the consequences. An adult can impregnate a girl and get away with it, so as not to stop her from getting an abortion.

My hope is that the same 25 million Catholics wo are supportive of tougher immigration laws will also show their face and raise their voices in support of the unborn, the sick, elderly and against government protected sexual abuse of minors in order to facilitate abortions.

The other point in the same arena was that our government could have spent millions on protecting the borders, but they decided to give it to other countries for abortions. Remember the Mexico City ban that President Obama lifted?

When we say why is it that our immigration plans and policies don’t work, we have to ask where is the money going?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

An eye opener post:clapping::clapping:

 

[willofgods]

…] deportation is not a freebie and may be more expensive. In addition to deportation hearings which tie up a team of people for each hearing, you have the actual cost of airflight…]

You make a good point pnewton! Does anyone know of any reports that cover how many people actually apply for legal residency into the US per year? Or how much it would cost/how much work it would take if all the current immigration laws were enforced?

I have heard that if we were to deport all the illegally immigrated workers from the US, (not considering the cost of deportation) the cost of living would greatly increase, due to the fact that employers would no longer have access to cheap labor and would therefore pass on the expense to the consumers.

Does the USCCB have any proposals for a good immigration reform model (are they allowed to propose one?) If not is there a way to find out what the Church would see as a good immigration policy?

 

[hazmatdude]

Actions speak louder then words. Have you heard Archbishop Dolan or any of our church leaders say anything positive about America, her people, her national sovereignty or our American culture. It’s heard to remember the last time I heard anything positive in my Diocese. However, they routinely demean and suppress the American culture with an almost manic promotion of multiculturalism which generally means any culture but American.

All we seem to get a cacaphony of divisive voices screaming about how badly we treat the illegal alien and how racist our laws are towards them. They divide our church by language and erect racial and ethnic barriers between us. When I asked how many parishes have English language classes in the Diocese of Oakland for immigrants to help them integrate into American society I found out there are none.

When was the last time Archbishop Dolan spoke to illegal aliens about the sinfulness of illegally crossing the border into the US just because they are poor, taking jobs from American’s or taking a single food stamp or housing voucher dollar. Probably never. When was the last time Archbishop Dolan suggested to an illegal alien that he return home to his country of origin and apply though an American consulate to immigrate legally or to secure a work visa. Again, probably never.

 

[pnewton]

When was the last time Archbishop Dolan spoke to illegal aliens about the sinfulness of illegally crossing the border into the US just because they are poor, taking jobs from American’s or taking a single food stamp or housing voucher dollar. Probably never. When was the last time Archbishop Dolan suggested to an illegal alien that he return home to his country of origin and apply though an American consulate to immigrate legally or to secure a work visa. Again, probably never.

Not all issues involve teaching on morals. Church leaders must uphold the teachings of Christ and how they apply to the world today first and foremost.

 

[TheresaLS]

This nation is a nation that has survived because of laws and our ability to enforce those laws. It is not right for anyone regardless of status to encourage individuals to break laws and be rewarded for doing so. Is this the example the Church should be setting? I remain firm in my belief that it is a case of bad parenting. For any country to maintain itself it must have stability and Bishop Dolan has not addressed this issue. The US gives a great deal of money to Mexico and it does not seem to help the people. They seem to be “relocating” because of lack of stability. The Church also spends a great deal of money to assist those in need but apparently “relocation” continues. Should the Church and our government be holding those that are in charge accountable?

 

[JReducation]

Actions speak louder then words. Have you heard Archbishop Dolan or any of our church leaders say anything positive about America, her people, her national sovereignty or our American culture. It’s heard to remember the last time I heard anything positive in my Diocese. However, they routinely demean and suppress the American culture with an almost manic promotion of multiculturalism which generally means any culture but American.

All we seem to get a cacaphony of divisive voices screaming about how badly we treat the illegal alien and how racist our laws are towards them. They divide our church by language and erect racial and ethnic barriers between us. When I asked how many parishes have English language classes in the Diocese of Oakland for immigrants to help them integrate into American society I found out there are none.

When was the last time Archbishop Dolan spoke to illegal aliens about the sinfulness of illegally crossing the border into the US just because they are poor, taking jobs from American’s or taking a single food stamp or housing voucher dollar. Probably never. When was the last time Archbishop Dolan suggested to an illegal alien that he return home to his country of origin and apply though an American consulate to immigrate legally or to secure a work visa. Again, probably never.

The Catholic Church does not hold illegal immigration to be a sin. Therefore it would be wrong for any bishop to say that it is. The Catholic Church also holds that a person has the right to seek a better life, safety, education, and healthcare where ever they can find it. The bishops cannot say that this is a sin either.

The Church has also told the governments of the world that they must do two things to stem the tide of illegal immigration and they have failed to listen.

1. The governments of the developed nations must stop giving money to corrupt politicians and give the aid directly to those organizations and agencies that work directly with those in need. But governments continue to give mother to other governemnts, knowing that this money will never reach the intended population. In fact, what our government is doing is supporting corrupt politicians, instead of helping the poor build better lives for themselves in their own country so they don’t have to immigrate.
2. Three popes have told the USA that it has to reform its immigration system It opens the possibility of entrance to the USA to those who have money, but closes the door to the poor. This puts the poor at a disadvantage when they try to use the legal system to come to the USA. If you do not have a bank account, property and a secure job in your homeland, you cannot get a visa to enter the USA. You are either denied or put on a waiting list that can take up to 20 yeas to get your visa. But if you have money, property and job, you can get a visa the same day that you approach the Consulate General. Take this from someone who grew up in consulates in five different countries. I saw this with my own eyes. There are some very humane Consuls who do grant the visas to the poor. The problem is that the State Department does not have a standard policy. Each Consular General decides at his or her discretion who gets a visa and who does not. The guidelines ae not clear. The Church has told the USA that they need to make these guidelines clear and more favorable to those who really need to immigrate. It is really within the copetence of the Consulate General in each country to ask for police reports and other documents neccessary to filter out undesireable elements. But instead, they ask for financial documents. Even criminals can enter the USA if they have money. That’s how terrorists enter. They have money. They approach the Consulate General, show their bank accounts, and get their visa.

The average American is not even aware of how this system works and how it really does not filter out criminals. A criminal CAN enter the US leally. There is no police check required by the State Dept, only a financial check.

The Church has also encourage the immigrants to use the legal channels. This is done at the home country. The Church is concerned that they will be exploited or hurt by illegal immigration. The Church has issued several statements in different countries about emmigration.

But the Vatican is not very supportive of the United States’ immigration system, because it has failed to follow their advice and continues to promote the entrance of the wealthy and deny the opportunity to the poor. The Vatican is very favorable toward the American people. It recognizes that there is a difference between the way our politicians do things and the values of our citizens. But it will never lend support ot our immigration system as long as it protects the wealthy, even if they’re terrorists and looks past the poor. Bishops cannot say what would be in conflict with the Vatican. And the Vatican has stated that discrimination against the poor is a sin. It has said this in many different ways and at many different times.

While the Catholic Church is the greatest supporter of our system of government, this is one area where the Vatican and the USA are at odds. Pope John Paul told President Clinton to his face in front of thousands of people, “America, you have been given much and much will be required of you a tthe final judgment.” Mother Teresa also challenged Hilary Clinton on this issue and abortion. It is no secret that the Church will never support the USA’s immigration policies until it cleans up its consulates and has a clear, uniform policy that discriminates against criminals not against poor people.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[hazmatdude]

The Catholic Church does not hold illegal immigration to be a sin. Therefore it would be wrong for any bishop to say that it is.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Brother your argument is without merit. I have read the schitzophrenic ruminations of the USCCB and listened to the likes of Archbishop Dolan for years and I agree you are right that our Church leaders consider it a virtue to enter our country illegally and steal from the taxpayer.

You do of course know that American Catholics and the citizens of this country are the most charitable and generous people in the world when it comes to helping the poor worldwide. We eclipe all others combined. Our immigration policy allows 1M people to legally immigrate and another 1M come in illegally and that is still not enough for you!

Then when American citizens in Arizona say enough is enough because crime by those virtuous illegal aliens became unbearable Archbishop Dolan calls them intolerent and worse. How pathetic.

 

[JReducation]

The Church is not saying that we allow people to commit acts of violence. She’s not even saying that we do not have a right to have immigration laws. What she is saying is the illegal immigation itself is not a sin. Just because lawyers want to call it a crime, does not mean that the Church has to revise its moral law to conform to their assessment. The same lawyers also say that abortion is not a crime. Therefore, the Church discourages Catholics form following the moral lead of lawyers and politicians.

That’s the point here. Too many Catholis are calling something a sin, because the state said that it’s a crime. Crime and sin are no the same. That’s the point here.

As to our system of immigration laws, we all know that it’s broken and needs to be fixed. But look where our government is putting our money: abortion. We now have federally funded abortion in the healthcare bill, we sent money to other nations to pay for abortions and we have given Planned Parenthood not only millions of dollar to perform abortions, but also a free pass not to report child sexual abuse.

There is a serious problem with this and we Catholics who want a fair and efficient immigration reform must demand that our country invest its resources in making it work, rather than killing the unborn and now in doing what everyone charged the Church with doing in 2001-02, abuse and cover-up. Now we allow Planned Parenthood to cover up abusers. Did you know that they do not have to report to the authorities? But they get government funding fromt he states and the fedreal government, while our immigration system is broken and the government won’t fix it because of “budget constraints.” There is something seriously wrong here. Should we be attacking Archbishop Dolan or questioning our government?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[pnewton]

Then when American citizens in Arizona say enough is enough because crime by those virtuous illegal aliens became unbearable Archbishop Dolan calls them intolerent and worse. How pathetic.

Virtuous illegal immigrants do not commit crime other than being here, any more than virtuous American citizens commit crime. I do not think any one has suggested that we do not deport the criminal element that are here illegally.

 

[Aramis]

Virtuous illegal immigrants do not commit crime other than being here, any more than virtuous American citizens commit crime. I do not think any one has suggested that we do not deport the criminal element that are here illegally.

I’ve met 3 virtuous illegal immigrant adults. All three arrived legally, but merely have not been permitted to renew their visas and can not afford to leave, but are working, paying rent (and thus property taxes), and are otherwise law abiding. 2 of them have since married US citizens and legally obtained green cards, and all three are Catholic.

I’ve met dozens of border dodgers; ALL of them are engaged in the drug trade either as customers or dealers. (Their being clients of an acquaintance/neighbor who was/is a drug dealer is in fact how I’ve met them. Said dealer has since been arrested.)

A recent neighbor was ordered to be deported back to his native Canada, persona non grata, for a collection of unpaid traffic tickets, and possession of marijuana. He moved out the day before INS raided. His Canadian father was arrested as well. His mother naturalized after his 18th birthday. Mind you, he graduated from the same high school I did, tho some 10 years later.

If a person is willing to ignore the laws about borders, odds are good they will ignore a great many other laws. My personal experience is that border runners tend strongly to be involved in crime.

 

[JReducation]

I’ve met 3 virtuous illegal immigrant adults. All three arrived legally, but merely have not been permitted to renew their visas and can not afford to leave, but are working, paying rent (and thus property taxes), and are otherwise law abiding. 2 of them have since married US citizens and legally obtained green cards, and all three are Catholic.

I’ve met dozens of border dodgers; ALL of them are engaged in the drug trade either as customers or dealers. (Their being clients of an acquaintance/neighbor who was/is a drug dealer is in fact how I’ve met them. Said dealer has since been arrested.)

A recent neighbor was ordered to be deported back to his native Canada, persona non grata, for a collection of unpaid traffic tickets, and possession of marijuana. He moved out the day before INS raided. His Canadian father was arrested as well. His mother naturalized after his 18th birthday. Mind you, he graduated from the same high school I did, tho some 10 years later.

If a person is willing to ignore the laws about borders, odds are good they will ignore a great many other laws. My personal experience is that border runners tend strongly to be involved in crime.

I have not had that experience. Having ministered to thousands of immigrants over the years, I have found them to be devout Catholics, humble people, hard working and very honest. The only law they broke was how they entered the country, but hat’s not a sin. This does not mean that I have not met those who are also dysfunctional people. But the percentage of dysfunctional people among the immigrants that I have ministered to is no higher than the percentage of those in mainstream America.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF