Archbishop Dolan on Immigration Reform

[kimmielittle]

Right back at you on the strawman arguments!

Actually, if you reread my post, I made no strawman argument. I was merly replying to your question:

You are saying they are a drain. What negative effects are you really suffering?

I answered with this"

If we aren’t supporting illegals…would not that money be freed - enabling to help better educate?.

And I ask again…Would not that money be freed to support…education…healthcare…etc etc?

Our students don’t perform well due to societal ills,

Is this subjective speculation or would you share references with us.please?

not because we have not thrown plenty of money at the education system in this country. We far outspend any other nation on the planet and we are much worse off in the education dept that other countries who spend far less.

Spending on education is regularity based on percentage of GDP…We should expect the USA to spend more.

Herein lies your new strawman…It doesn’t matter what the reasons of ranking poorly in education are…MY point was answering where the “drain” monies could be spent. I didn’t say better scores would be achieved…

I was educated in a 4 room Catholic schoolhouse and shared a desk with another student. The class size was 3 times what it is today and I dare say I received a very fine education. Not due to how much money the teacher was paid or any state of the art equipment, just plain old discipline, parents who cared and made sure I studied, etc.

The strawman here, Is what was good for or happened to you…isn’t necessarily…relative to what is expected from students today, in our world of challenges.

So to say that if it weren’t for migrants we would all be so much better educated is not very logical. Our ills in the US are not due to lack of funds.

I never said that…now did I …I gave two examples where drained money could be used. - Education and health care… I also included etc etc ].

We are called by Christ to be kind and compassionate. To call those who entered our country illegally criminals is invalid. If it’s criminal to “break into” the land of milk and honey in search of a better life for your family,

So, by your logic…it’s perfectly O’Kay for me to break into a rich persons house…because they have what I want? Not only that, I should be given amenity to keep on doing it daily? Christ never said anything about letting illegal activity continue. He Did say, “Go and sin no more” .

I say I would be one of them if I had been born into abject poverty with no hope for the future of my children. Some say "It’s not THAT bad. I have been to some parts of MX and yes, it is that bad.

I have been to Mexico, as well…I’ve also been to places like the Appalachians …and inner cities in the USA - some just as poverty stricken…It has nothing to do with illegals breaking the law…

Strawman argument concerning how we ought to be seeing to it somehow that the MX govt should be treating their own people better, how would you propose we do that? Send troops? Let’s be honest, we can do nothing about their unjust system of government.

hmmmm…The “maybe” indicates a question not arguement.

But, maybe we should be more concerned with helping Mexico overcome it’s inequities, instead of hoping illegal immigrants… somehow, save us

It was questioning this statement / question of yours:

Maybe these are the replacment players we are now receiving through God’s divine wisdom and mercy.

I see no strawman.

Bottom line for me is that no good can come from a country that has turned away from God as we have in the USA. We have not won a war since we began to turn away, in case you haven’t noticed. God is not really on our side and we need to make a change in our selfish attitude. Our country is in economic collapse not due to immigrants, legal or illegal but due to immorality on many levels including greed, corruption, sexual perversions, murdering our own children, so lets stop the madness and start helping ourselves. Be generous and kind and speak out against injustice for all, from the unborn to the immigrant.

It is immoral - corrupt - to participate in known illegal activitities. By asking us to turn our back on this illegal immigration ] You are, indeed, asking us to participate - Turning us from God

 

[Stonez]

This is in response to the original post b/c I don’t want to read all 15 pages of comments.

Since when was SB-1070 against the legal immigrant? This bill is against the ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT. These people have no right to be in the United States without first going through the proper channels to be here. What is wrong with the notion of allowing the local police to verify that a person is in the U.S. legally? Law enforcement officials can only ask this question when they have made lawful contact with someone by the way.

I take issue with many people especially those who champion ILLEGAL immigrant rights; say, Mexicans for example (since they are the most visible group in all this) have every right to be in the United States whether they are legal or illegal. What is one of the jobs of the Border Patrol, to keep ILLEGALS out. It is a CRIME for them to be here. I am in shock of all the ILLEGAL lovers who have come out of the woodwork to protest SB-1070. Because in a nutshell that is what you are.

And for any who may think I sound racist I am full blooded Mexican-American.

VIVA LOS SB-1070!

 

[kimmielittle]

This is in response to the original post b/c I don’t want to read all 15 pages of comments.

Since when was SB-1070 against the legal immigrant? This bill is against the ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT. These people have no right to be in the United States without first going through the proper channels to be here. What is wrong with the notion of allowing the local police to verify that a person is in the U.S. legally? Law enforcement officials can only ask this question when they have made lawful contact with someone by the way.

I take issue with many people especially those who champion ILLEGAL immigrant rights; say, Mexicans for example (since they are the most visible group in all this) have every right to be in the United States whether they are legal or illegal. What is one of the jobs of the Border Patrol, to keep ILLEGALS out. It is a CRIME for them to be here. I am in shock of all the ILLEGAL lovers who have come out of the woodwork to protest SB-1070. Because in a nutshell that is what you are.

And for any who may think I sound racist I am full blooded Mexican-American.

VIVA LOS SB-1070!

Well said:thumbsup:

 

[Phil_Stone]

I was for better border control before the War on Drugs, because even then it was clear that if you could smuggle in a ton of Marijuana, you could smuggle in chemical, biological or even nucleur weapons. But any foriegn power in the cross hairs of our ICBMs would not give up complete Commmand and Control of those weapons. Today our enemies do not all have states to target, so the situation is even more dangerous.

But if you are talking about a fence,(like Senator McCain) we have to remember the Berlin Wall. It was not the Wall, or the razor wire that stopped people; it was soldiers with machine guns who sat on top to shoot anyone who tried to cross. Do we want to go that far, and would we be moral to do so? It is no secret that people die attempting to cross the border illegally. And yet they come, because many of the same people who today want to control immigration have consistently opposed punishing employers for hiring illegals who provide cheap labor.

Mexico has traditionally had a corrupt, oligarchic government. But would the US allow an unstable government on our border? We have for generations been supportive of the Mexican government with the hope that it would not get so bad that there would be a revolt in sight of Texas. But there have been revolts in southern Mexican states. If a revolution really occured, how many refugees would come across our border?

THe policies of our govenment for the last 30 years have generally trended toward laws favoring the wealthy over the poor, and to the detriment of the middle class. When President Reagan was first elected, concerns were raised about the “South Americanization” of the US. How could we help reform Mexico when many in power have been pushing us to be more like them? Why would we? It would be like when President Bush was trying to convince the Iraqis to accept a liberal democracy rather than a theocracy, while campaigning to do the latter at home. To many conservatives, Freedom just means Radical Capitalism.

 

[Sherry_G]

This is in response to the original post b/c I don’t want to read all 15 pages of comments.

Since when was SB-1070 against the legal immigrant? This bill is against the ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT. These people have no right to be in the United States without first going through the proper channels to be here. What is wrong with the notion of allowing the local police to verify that a person is in the U.S. legally? Law enforcement officials can only ask this question when they have made lawful contact with someone by the way.

I take issue with many people especially those who champion ILLEGAL immigrant rights; say, Mexicans for example (since they are the most visible group in all this) have every right to be in the United States whether they are legal or illegal. What is one of the jobs of the Border Patrol, to keep ILLEGALS out. It is a CRIME for them to be here. I am in shock of all the ILLEGAL lovers who have come out of the woodwork to protest SB-1070. Because in a nutshell that is what you are.

And for any who may think I sound racist I am full blooded Mexican-American.

VIVA LOS SB-1070!

No one is championing “illegal rights”. What we are requesting, through all means possible including contacting our congressrepresentatives is that the issue be addressed in a way that will put an end to this madness that we have been living with for thirty or forty years. Pressure needs to be brought to bear on those in a position to correct this travesty. People come unglued at the mere idea that Archbishop Dolan addresses an issue that we all obviously care deeply about. We are just asking for what we all can agree on…an end to the craziness. On one hand, no one wants the issue to be undertaken by congress to resolve it, and on the other many people are very upset by the reality we all live with now. The only way to get it resolved is for American people to bring pressure on those who can make and enforce the laws. No sooner does someone suggest that we need to move forward on this issue and many people go bananas!!!

 

[sidbrown]

No one is championing “illegal rights”.

My reading is that a lot of people are championing rights for illegal aliens. What is the purpose of all those marches and speeches otherwise? Isn;t it basically to give certain rights and privileges to people who are here illegally?

 

[Sherry_G]

My reading is that a lot of people are championing rights for illegal aliens. What is the purpose of all those marches and speeches otherwise? Isn;t it basically to give certain rights and privileges to people who are here illegally?

You are being sidetracked about the issue. Forget about those who are marching and waving flags and concentrate on getting something concrete accomplished. Write or email your congress representatives, asking them to take up this issue and address in a way that will resolve it. Many politicans are scared of backlash and won’t address the real issue. Some people actually want this situation to continue as it is since people here illegally can be victimized by those wishing to profit from their inablility to complain when they are abused, physically, mentally or finanicially. Companies who are thriving because they are paying such low wages to those who have no choice but to accept the situation. Many illegals use SS#s of deceased, etc. and still pay taxes even though they will never collect a dime. The government must realize that their coffers are being filled by those who cannot benefit from their contributions. Some employers collect taxes, but never pay them to the government. So, lets bring this whole mess out into the light of day and get something accomplished. If we cannot stop the traffic from coming in, can we control what happens inside our borders?

 

[Tigg]

You are being sidetracked about the issue. Forget about those who are marching and waving flags and concentrate on getting something concrete accomplished. Write or email your congress representatives, asking them to take up this issue and address in a way that will resolve it.

We’ve been doing this for years, in fact, two summers ago, the senate phone lines were shut down by the sheer number of calls from the grassroots movement so vehement was the opposition when they were debating amnesty. The current policy of Washington in looking the other way while tens of thousands pour over our border will not end - no way is Congress going to renege on its defacto partnership with Big Business. I do suspect they will pass amnesty this year in much the same way they passed healthcare. By parliamentary trickery and behind closed doors.

As far as our bishops? Again, their voices will echo that of this administration, and I am not fooled by the term “immigration reform.” That is amnesty, plain and simple, and I will be very surprised if the outrage and injustices caused to American society will be addressed. It appears they have forgotten about solidarity.

 

[DeaconsSon87]

If you support what Arizona is doing…then I would question your suitability to receive Communion. (If I were a bishop, I would openly ask the politicians who support that to refrain from receiving until they change their minds, as the Pope and bishops oppose that law)

Isn’t that one of the four “sins that cry out to heaven for vengeance”? (actually, I think it covers the last two)

 

[kimmielittle]

If you support what Arizona is doing…then I would question your suitability to receive Communion. (If I were a bishop, I would openly ask the politicians who support that to refrain from receiving until they change their minds, as the Pope and bishops oppose that law)

Isn’t that one of the four “sins that cry out to heaven for vengeance”? (actually, I think it covers the last two)

Hmmmm…This law is not amoral…unethical…unjust…how would you justify denying Communion?

 

[Stonez]

If you support what Arizona is doing…then I would question your suitability to receive Communion. (If I were a bishop, I would openly ask the politicians who support that to refrain from receiving until they change their minds, as the Pope and bishops oppose that law)

Isn’t that one of the four “sins that cry out to heaven for vengeance”? (actually, I think it covers the last two)

Wait a minute here aren’t people supposed to follow the law? Illegal immigrants are breaking the law.

Look at 1Pet:13-15 (NAB)
13 Be subject to every human institution for the Lord’s sake, whether it be to the king as supreme 14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the approval of those who do good. 15 For it is the will of God that by doing good you may silence the ignorance of foolish people.

Is this a way of saying “Give to Caesar what is Caesars” that is, shouldn’t you follow the laws that are instituted by a government?

In my opinion those who break the law (illegals) are the ones who need to refrain from recieving Holy Communion.

 

[GraceSofia]

If you support what Arizona is doing…then I would question your suitability to receive Communion. (If I were a bishop, I would openly ask the politicians who support that to refrain from receiving until they change their minds, as the Pope and bishops oppose that law)

Isn’t that one of the four “sins that cry out to heaven for vengeance”? (actually, I think it covers the last two)

Where has the Pope come out against this law? I do not believe the Pope has said anything about it.

The Catechism says:
*
2241 The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places **a guest **under the protection of those who receive him.

Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.*

A “guest” does not sneak into your house, demand food and housing, and refuse to leave when asked. The Catechism does NOT say we must fling open the gates and give assistance to lawbreakers.

 

[pnewton]

If you support what Arizona is doing…then I would question your suitability to receive Communion. (If I were a bishop, I would openly ask the politicians who support that to refrain from receiving until they change their minds, as the Pope and bishops oppose that law)

Isn’t that one of the four “sins that cry out to heaven for vengeance”? (actually, I think it covers the last two)

No. Supporting any law is not a sin that cries for vengence. There is not mortal sin here and even the worst critic has not suggested something so extreme.

 

[sidbrown]

If you support what Arizona is doing…then I would question your suitability to receive Communion. (If I were a bishop, I would openly ask the politicians who support that to refrain from receiving until they change their minds, as the Pope and bishops oppose that law)

Isn’t that one of the four “sins that cry out to heaven for vengeance”? (actually, I think it covers the last two)

I question your authority and credibility on this issue. As I understand it to be California has had on the books for some time, a stgricter law than the one enacted by Arizona, and I did not hear one peep from the pro-illegal immigration Cardinal Mahony on any requirement to disobey this law of California. I don’t think that I would agree with denying people Holy Communion because they are in favor of upholding the immigration laws of the United States.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

The topic is:
Archbishop Dolan on Immigration Reform
not communion.
Stay on topic please.

 

[Sherry_G]

I’m disappointed to see the good Archbishop is stepping out of his element - talking about laws he lacks the expertise to interpret and economic theories (ie - illegal immigrants are good for the economy) that he has no qualification to assert. Apostolic succession does not make you skilled at math, economics, or law.

I wish the good Archbishop could take a moment to address facts instead of platitudes and straw men. I want him to show and teach by addressing the specific language of the law rather than casting vague aspersions on the residents of numerous Sees beyond his own. This kind of article doesn’t communicate effectively. It makes it seem like the Archbishop is judging the hearts and minds of men and women who are unknown to him - ascribing them motives from afar. That would model a very poor example for the faithful.

• Marty Lund

Respectfully, I submit that the Archbishop is not about teaching civil law but the laws of God as demonstrated to us by Jesus Christ Himself. We neither want or need a lesson in the civil laws. We do need a moral compass, something the good Archibishop is trying to provide for all of us. Jesus commanded us to love one another, he did not add any caveats about what you are proposing. Many of our civil laws are a moral outrage, such as “legal” abortion.

 

[Ender]

Respectfully, I submit that the Archbishop is not about teaching civil law but the laws of God as demonstrated to us by Jesus Christ Himself.

Let’s look at his actual comments:

He says those who support the law: “harbor an ingrained fear”, and display “spasms of ‘anti-immigrant’ fever”. He likens us to the “Nativists of the 1840’s, who led mobs to torch Irish homes and Catholic churches; the Know-Nothings of the 1850’s who wanted to deny the vote to everyone except white, Protestant, native-born, “pure” Americans; the American Protective Association of the 1880’s and 1890’s who were scared of the arrival of immigrants from Italy, Poland, and Germany; the Ku Klux Klan of the 1920’s who spewed hate against blacks, Jews, Catholics, and “forn-ers”; the “eugenics movement” of the 1920’s and 1930’s who worried that racial purity was being compromised.” He called us “mean-spirited” and “narrow-minded.”

So which of God’s laws is he addressing? Would it be the command not to judge those things which one cannot know … like the intentions of others? Would it be the demands of charity which oblige us to interpret a person’s words in the best possible light, not the worst? Is it perhaps the obligation to avoid the sin of calumny?

We neither want or need a lesson in the civil laws. We do need a moral compass, something the good Archbishop is trying to provide for all of us.

If the archbishop wants to provide a moral compass then he should start by making reparations for the wrongs he has done us. He has committed offenses against truth, specifically rash judgment, slander, and calumny and "Every offense committed against justice and truth entails the duty of reparation." This is surely a teaching moment and we will discover from his example just exactly what kind of teacher he is.

Ender

 

[Sherry_G]

Let’s look at his actual comments:

He says those who support the law: “harbor an ingrained fear”, and display “spasms of ‘anti-immigrant’ fever”. He likens us to the “Nativists of the 1840’s, who led mobs to torch Irish homes and Catholic churches; the Know-Nothings of the 1850’s who wanted to deny the vote to everyone except white, Protestant, native-born, “pure” Americans; the American Protective Association of the 1880’s and 1890’s who were scared of the arrival of immigrants from Italy, Poland, and Germany; the Ku Klux Klan of the 1920’s who spewed hate against blacks, Jews, Catholics, and “forn-ers”; the “eugenics movement” of the 1920’s and 1930’s who worried that racial purity was being compromised.” He called us “mean-spirited” and “narrow-minded.”

So which of God’s laws is he addressing? Would it be the command not to judge those things which one cannot know … like the intentions of others? Would it be the demands of charity which oblige us to interpret a person’s words in the best possible light, not the worst? Is it perhaps the obligation to avoid the sin of calumny?
If the archbishop wants to provide a moral compass then he should start by making reparations for the wrongs he has done us. He has committed offenses against truth, specifically rash judgment, slander, and calumny and "Every offense committed against justice and truth entails the duty of reparation." This is surely a teaching moment and we will discover from his example just exactly what kind of teacher he is.

Amazing that you feel personally attacked! I believe the Archibishop was addressing past history. I don’t recall him mentioned you specifically did he? I don’t feel “judged” by our leaders , however if you do, maybe you have some things to look at. I appreciate his addressing the problem head-on unlike those who sit in our congress and exchange meaily-mouthed platitudes endlessly while nothing is being changed and there is no end in sight to this problem. To deny that our citizens have ever victimized any class, nationality or race of people is to rewrite history.

Why cling to anger over a wrong you feel has been done to you, personally. Why not use this as an opportunity to help make some needed changes? Unless you just want everything to stay the way it’s always been, better think of something new to try instead.

Jesus wants us to love one another. Plain and simple. I hardly think there is any apology or reparation needed for reminding us Catholics of what Jesus taught.

 

[gakroeger]

Here is a video from an Atlanta TV station reporting on the illegal crossing of our Southern border by OTM’s “Others Then Mexicans”.

This is of grave concern and another reason why our borders need to be controlled.

wsbtv.com/video/23438021/index.html

 

[larryjay]

I will admit that I am resentful toward people living in the US illegally. If I am required to obey the law then every person wanting to be here should do the same. Additionally, if a person wants to become a citizen of the US, then they should do it legally. But because our politicians at the national level decided a long time ago to bury their head in the sand, the immigration issue is way out of control and with no easy solution.