Archbishop Dolan refers to God as "him", "her" or "whatever you want"

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1917 Code of Canon Law: “1325§1 Obligation to Profess the Faith –

The faithful are bound to profess their faith openly whenever under the circumstances silence, evasion, or their manner of acting would otherwise implicitly amount to a denial of the faith, or would involve contempt of religion, an offense to God, or scandal to the neighbor.”
 
woodland_poet said:
He spoke of the Lord, of God and them him, her or whatever you want. I think he has an aversion to speaking the truth plainly. People don’t, neither can they, give thanks to that which is not God. God is referred to as the Father, Christ is a man and even the Holy Spirit is referred to as him. Where one is, so there are the other two. I am not going to play at words to defend what was an obvious error in judgement when speaking.
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He is, in fact, teaching what the Church teaches. That God transcends male and female. Hopefully, we as a society have matured beyond the idea that an all powerful God must be male. The true nature of God is that God is not a human, and is not male or female. Christ, is fully man as He is fully God as well, and the Holy Spirit is Spirit.

Hopefully, as I said, we have matured enough that we can accept this understanding of the nature of the Trinity without being overly attached to terms like him, her or it.

In any case, the Bishop is fully in line with Church teaching here.
 
woodland_poet said:
Archbishop Timothy Dolan spoke Wednesday on FOX noting that Thanksgiving was a time when people gave thanks to God, to him, her, or whatever you want, and give thanks. I am sickened by this. God and Jesus Christ is not a her or whatever. This is inexcusable for someone as trained in the faith as Archbishop must obviously be. This fits with what I have believed about the Catholic Conference for some time, that it is a prideful network of bishops who promote left wing agendas. God help the good bishops. I just didn’t think that it would require this short amount of time for Archbishop Dolan to reveal that he is not one of them.
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I fear that you are correct. The manner in which Almighty God was spoken about is entirely unseemly.
 
Archbishop Dolan does have a ‘superior’, does he not?

All who have ‘concerns’ over what the Archbishop said should be addressing their concerns to the Archbishop himself, personally, through e-mail, snail mail, or phone. They should also be addressing their concerns to the Archbishop’s superior, also via e-mail, snail mail, or phone.

And any posts here regarding their concern should be limited to something on this order:

“Recently I heard Archbishop X make the following statements (link to statements). These statements appear problematic to me because (give reason). Therefore I have written/phoned the Archbishop to ask for clarification, and should there still be concerns or no response, I will contact the superior. I urge all who have concerns as well to contact the Archbishop so that these concerns are dealt with appropriately, and to pray for all of us.”

This way, the person concerned will not only be following appropriate and MANNERLY protocol, he will also be observing the kind of Christian response which is concerned with truth but not to the extent of attacking the PERSON rather than concern for truth.

IOW, instead of looking like people who are more concerned with ‘trashing’ the Archbishop PERSONALLY, they’ll look like people who are concerned with making sure that all people–including THEY THEMSELVES–will be making statements in line with Catholic truth, and made in Christian CHARITY.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
IOW, instead of looking like people who are more concerned with ‘trashing’ the Archbishop PERSONALLY, they’ll look like people who are concerned with making sure that all people–including THEY THEMSELVES–will be making statements in line with Catholic truth, and made in Christian CHARITY.
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Amen! Thank you for writing this. I could not agree more!
 
The Blessed Virgin Mary had a Son and His Name is Jesus. He died on the Cross for our sins and to open the gates of Heaven. He taught us to pray, “Our Father, Who art in Heaven, Hallowed be Thy Name…” When we make the sign of the Cross, we say, “In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…”. Christ lived and died as a Man. He taught us to pray to Our Father. We believe there are three persons in One God. We believe that Christ is God the Son. He taught us to pray to His Father as Our Father. That is not sexist. That is not “some being out there”. He did not lie to us. I trust you do not seriously believe you are mature enough to see that Christ is a liar.
 
Truism said:
The Blessed Virgin Mary had a Son and His Name is Jesus. He died on the Cross for our sins and to open the gates of Heaven. He taught us to pray, “Our Father, Who art in Heaven, Hallowed be Thy Name…” When we make the sign of the Cross, we say, “In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…”. Christ lived and died as a Man. He taught us to pray to Our Father. We believe there are three persons in One God. We believe that Christ is God the Son. He taught us to pray to His Father as Our Father. That is not sexist. That is not “some being out there”. He did not lie to us. I trust you do not seriously believe you are mature enough to see that Christ is a liar.
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Amem!
 
Adeodatus said:
You’ll note that the poster of the post you linked to already admitted that he typed the Archbishop’s quote incorrectly.
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The point is that it isn’t clear what the Archbishop said. In which case it is always safer to follow the Lord’s injunction to put the best construction on another’s words and actions.
 
Truism said:
The Blessed Virgin Mary had a Son and His Name is Jesus. He died on the Cross for our sins and to open the gates of Heaven. He taught us to pray, “Our Father, Who art in Heaven, Hallowed be Thy Name…” When we make the sign of the Cross, we say, “In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…”. Christ lived and died as a Man. He taught us to pray to Our Father. We believe there are three persons in One God. We believe that Christ is God the Son. He taught us to pray to His Father as Our Father. That is not sexist. That is not “some being out there”. He did not lie to us. I trust you do not seriously believe you are mature enough to see that Christ is a liar.
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Yes, as I said, and as the Church teaches, Christ is both God and man.

What the Church is saying is that God transcends humanity. God is not male or female. God is pure spirit. We should not make God in our image. God transcends our image. From the Catechism:
370 In no way is God in man’s image. He is neither man nor woman. God is pure spirit in which there is no place for the difference between the sexes. But the respective “perfections” of man and woman reflect something of the infinite perfection of God: those of a mother and those of a father and husband.
Also note, that the Holy Spirit is also pure spirit.
The term “Spirit” translates the Hebrew word ruah, which, in its primary sense, means breath, air, wind. Jesus indeed uses the sensory image of the wind to suggest to Nicodemus the transcendent newness of him who is personally God’s breath, the divine Spirit.17 On the other hand, “Spirit” and “Holy” are divine attributes common to the three divine persons. By joining the two terms, Scripture, liturgy, and theological language designate the inexpressible person of the Holy Spirit, without any possible equivocation with other uses of the terms “spirit” and “holy.”
These are hard concepts to understand. Especially when we are use to talking in terms like “Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” And I am not saying we shouldn’t still think of the Trinity in that way, after all God made us and so He is our Father and it would be very difficult for us, even today, to imagine saying “It made us and It is our Creator.” However, we cannot anthropomorphise God and make him in our own image, that would be wrong. God is God, or as He himself said: “I am that I am” (אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה‎ ). (Exodus 3:14). God is Pure Being or Existance, as Aquinas said.

In any case, what the good Bishop said was definately in line with Church teaching about the nature of God. And what has been the Church teaching for a very, very, very long time.
 
Truism said:
The Blessed Virgin Mary had a Son and His Name is Jesus. He died on the Cross for our sins and to open the gates of Heaven. He taught us to pray, “Our Father, Who art in Heaven, Hallowed be Thy Name…” When we make the sign of the Cross, we say, “In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…”. Christ lived and died as a Man. He taught us to pray to Our Father. We believe there are three persons in One God. We believe that Christ is God the Son. He taught us to pray to His Father as Our Father. That is not sexist. That is not “some being out there”. He did not lie to us. I trust you do not seriously believe you are mature enough to see that Christ is a liar.
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Christ is true God and true man. Spirit and flesh. God is is spirit and sexless. That some of old found it easier to think of God as a male person doesn’t mean that He is such. He transcends sexual identity except as a convention.
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
Christ is true God and true man. Spirit and flesh. God is is spirit and sexless. That some of old found it easier to think of God as a male person doesn’t mean that He is such. He transcends sexual identity except as a convention.
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Yes, what Rich says here is very true. Many of us find the convention very useful though as a way of focusing our thoughts and prayers. Which could be why Jesus taught the Lord’s Prayer the way He did.

Same reason Jesus came to earth as a man and not something else.

Something to consider anyway…

Augustine wrote a lot on this and related topics. See:
newadvent.org/fathers/1301.htm
 
O.K. Jesus ascended into Heaven body and soul. Therefore, he keeps His male body in Heaven. The Blessed Mother was assumed into Heaven body and soul. Therefore, she keeps her female body in Heaven. To say that God is just pure spirit is to deny the Ascension. By denying the Ascension, one denies that Christ was fully God and fully Man. It also denies that Christ is an integral part of the Trinity.

As for me, I will stick with what He told me and hope to meet Him one day. I suspect I will recognize Him. As for me and my house, we will praise the Lord, The King of Kings, not the Queen of Queens. Amen!
 
Truism said:
O.K. Jesus ascended into Heaven body and soul. Therefore, he keeps His male body in Heaven. The Blessed Mother was assumed into Heaven body and soul. Therefore, she keeps her female body in Heaven.
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You’re saying then that Heaven is a three dimension place. It’s an interesting thought, but has the Church said anything to affirm such a proposition?
To say that God is just pure spirit is to deny the Ascension.
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Not at all. Only the Second Person of the Trinity assumed humanity to be not only spirit, but also flesh.
By denying the Ascension, one denies that Christ was fully God and fully Man. It also denies that Christ is an integral part of the Trinity.
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True enough, but it hasn’t anything to do with this thread.
As for me, I will stick with what He told me and hope to meet Him one day. I suspect I will recognize Him. As for me and my house, we will praise the Lord, The King of Kings, not the Queen of Queens. Amen!
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Do what you like, but no one has proposed that Jesus Christ was a woman.
 
gilliam said:
Let’s talk about the nature of God. God transcends the human condition, God is divine. He is not a him or a her, so I can see the point that trying to refer to God in human terms is a bit anthropomorphic. So I can see his point. Here is what the Catholic Catechism says about the nature of God:

370 In no way is God in man’s image. He is neither man nor woman. God is pure spirit in which there is no place for the difference between the sexes. But the respective “perfections” of man and woman reflect something of the infinite perfection of God: those of a mother and those of a father and husband.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p6.htm#370

I think we need to get over ourselves and realize that there is Something out there that we cannot fully understand that is God. I think that is what he was trying to say. It sounds like a very good message to me.
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I see what you are saying, but we are Catholics, and he is a Catholic, and Catholics believe in the Holy Trinity—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. That is God, and that is what we call God. The pronoun that matches “Father” and “Son” is “He,” not “she,” or “it.”

You know, perhaps you all can comment, but recently I was actually at a Novus Ordo mass, and the woman behind me wouldn’t say “He” or “His” for any of the prayers/responds, even when the priest was saying so, but instead she spoke only the word “God” over what the others were saying. Is this a common occurrence at NO Masses?

I was very much more dismayed by another abominable practice I saw at that same mass, something that I haven’t even seen at other NO Masses: people were standing during the consecration! Standing! Can you believe it!?

What is up with that? Is that another practice that you all see commonly? My parish is FSSP, so were are certainly not standing!

It is very, very irreverent to me—how have we gotten to this point? I wish the priest would have instructed them to get on their knees, but it appeared to be a common event. He didn’t even seem phased. I was raised in an NO parish, and we didn’t stand during the consecration. When did this practice enter the laity? And what is the reason for this? Standing during the consecration—get on your knees, “Lord, I am not worthy!”

Have others here seen this? Perhaps I should start another thread…
 
quotidianum said:
I see what you are saying, but we are Catholics, and he is a Catholic, and Catholics believe in the Holy Trinity—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. That is God, and that is what we call God. The pronoun that matches “Father” and “Son” is “He,” not “she,” or “it.”
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Only Jesus Christ had a sex because He became man. God is pure spirit and as such is of no sex. Calling him Father is a convention. God is as much a mother as a father.
You know, perhaps you all can comment, but recently I was actually at a Novus Ordo mass, and the woman behind me wouldn’t say “He” or “His” for any of the prayers/responds, even when the priest was saying so, but instead she spoke only the word “God” over what the others were saying. Is this a common occurrence at NO Masses?
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You are presuming that those who attend Novus Ordo Masses go to various parishes to do so and can answer your question. Do folks who attend Tridentine Masses go to enough parishes to note how different parishioners worship? No, in either case.
I was very much more dismayed by another abominable practice I saw at that same mass, something that I haven’t even seen at other NO Masses: people were standing during the consecration! Standing! Can you believe it!?
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What is up with that? Is that another practice that you all see commonly? My parish is FSSP, so were are certainly not standing!
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You are being smug about this. Either Mass is valid; you take your choice. Here in North Little Rock, one parish offers both Masses, the Tridentine being offered by the FSSP. Though I was raised in the older Mass, I personally prefer the Novus Ordo, though I occasionally attend the former.
 
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