Archbishop links priestly celibacy and Catholic sex abuse scandals

[whatevergirl]

As Catholics, we should be seeking the truth here…as ugly, damaging, scary, and comfortable it might be for us to hear…that is what I want to hear…the truth of what happened in these cases. I don’t believe everything I read, and I do know the media blows a lot of things sky high, because of its loathing of the Catholic faith…BUT, the truth is that bad things were happening between priests and kids. The truth is out there, and I believe there are some who are still alive, to attest to what happened, and they need to come clean now…because THAT is what is ‘fair.’ The truth will set us free…and that is all I want to know.

 

[pnewton]

I agree, but how does that relate to the case where the Pope is being dragged in? The priest admitted I thought, albeit when he was ill, that he did these things, and confessed them to another priest…? So, he wasn’t falsely accused, he admitted the wrong doing.

Heresay evidence is not admissable in court. If the victims, even one, had come forward to the police then they could have pursued a case against the priest. Where have all these victims been? I understand as children their options were limited. But none at no time ever thought that they should say something to the authorities? Where is that story? We can debate or guess how much Pope Benedict knew, or should have known. But not one of these victims ever brought the crime to the police? Moreover, has one report even thought about investigating to see if a report was ever filed with the police, those with the primary responsibility to punish crime.

 

[The_Geographer]

*I agree, but how does that relate to the case where the Pope is being dragged in? The priest admitted I thought, albeit when he was ill, that he did these things, and confessed them to another priest…? So, he wasn’t falsely accused, he admitted the wrong doing. The question becomes…when did he confess, who knew, and when. I don’t believe for a minute, that 200 deaf kids being abused came to light in the 90’s when this priest was on his death bed. That’s the problem, not that it didn’t happen…but when, and why wasn’t anything done BACK THEN??? *

EXACTLY!!!

This is why I am fighting in favor of Men standing up and BE MEN. While serving in the US Army I saw things that infuriated me. It is not popular to speak out against things that happen in the military. The problem with this is that when you say nothing nothing changes until someone finally climbs up the ranks to change things by establishing policies and PRACTICES that modifies improper behavior. The same SHOULD be true in any organization. This should have been dealt with during the time of the Protestant Reformation. It was obviously common knowledge that far too many priests were living in sin, bearing children outside of wedlock, and not stepping up to their responsibilities. Though we are a broken people, why did the Church authority not do something about this back then as well? Sin is a sign is sickness in the soul.

 

[The_Geographer]

I will say this.

I do believe that we may be in the transitioning stage where married priests in the Latin Rite may come back. But we must remember the honor and dignity of the existing and future celibate priests. I would also say that a celibate priest must now be required to be part of a Vatican recognized religious order. This formation will help keep them spiritually formed in the light of Christ.

 

[ALLGIRLS]

This has nothing to do with the well known fact that eleven of the twelve apostles chosen by Our Divine Lord were married.

That’s still just 11 of the 12. Our Lord didn’t REQUIRE St. John to marry to spread the Gospel. He also didn’t say to St. Paul: “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? Go find a wife and spread my Gospel.” He also allowed Paul to write inspired Scripture that extolled the virtue of celibacy.

I think the problem people are having with you is your opinion that ALL PRIESTS should be REQUIRED to be married. That’s impossible. You can’t “require” anyone to marry, let alone an entire group of people. If that’s the case, then ALL teachers need to be required to marry, as it’s been proven that they abuse kids at a higher rate that priests do. And doctors are in positions of trust and have been known to abuse kids, too. Lets require them to all be married to, shall we? You can’t force the call to Holy Matrimony on someone. Yes, some men may be called to marriage as well as Holy Orders, but not all of them. And are you going to defrock all the celibate priests we have now if they don’t “find a wife” in some arbitrary amount of time?

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[whatevergirl]

Heresay evidence is not admissable in court. If the victims, even one, had come forward to the police then they could have pursued a case against the priest. Where have all these victims been? I understand as children their options were limited. But none at no time ever thought that they should say something to the authorities? Where is that story? We can debate or guess how much Pope Benedict knew, or should have known. But not one of these victims ever brought the crime to the police? Moreover, has one report even thought about investigating to see if a report was ever filed with the police, those with the primary responsibility to punish crime.

*I don’t think all the cases were hearsay…I think some did go to authorities years after…and some were seeking out psychological services…so that is probably documented…not sure with doctor patient confidentiality, if the nature of those doctor meetings could be permissible, but if the patient were to allow it. I have read that here and there over the years, not recently, I’m saying. But, if those who are still alive could shed some light on this with what they know? They should, that is the moral Catholic thing to do…is what I feel. I do believe that there probably have been and will continue to be falsely accused priests…my concern also is how these payouts are being made? What kind of investigations are taking place? I mean, from the sounds of it only…it seems like I could walk into, claim a deceased priest molested me 30 years ago, and then get a check in a month? I’m being over simplistic, I know, but it just seems like lots of money is being paid out in record amounts of time, and it’s like…where are the trials? I remember only the one for the convicted priest – was it Fr Geghan from Boston I’m thinking of? Yeah, think it was him. I have not seen any trials going on…so it’s like…we can convict dead priests of something without evidence? I am a little taken aback by that. It opens the door for non priests …just lay people…to be sued if no evidence is required…or if the person is dead, and the alleged victim is suing the dead person’s family. We’re going off on a tangent, sorry…but you know what I mean? I do believe that abuse went on, but I also have never seen money being paid out like this, with no trial. *

 

[ALLGIRLS]

Well, that is my point that every citizen should face the same civil penalty for the same crime. Why is a schoolteacher facing up to eighteen years in prison for involvement with one boy, whereas according to the NYTimes a priest who had involvement with 200 deaf boys did not face any civil penalty?

Because none of them went to the police until the 1990’s, decades after the abuse occurred! The Catholic Church didn’t invent the civil statute of limitations! If that boy would have waited until 2030 to report the abuse, the teacher wouldn’t be facing any charges, either (and she likely would have gone on to abuse lots more kids, too)(and, off topic, I highly doubt she’ll get 18 years. Female child abusers usually get a slap on the wrist “shock sentence” and probation. You don’t hear any outrage about that in the media, though).

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[pnewton]

*We’re going off on a tangent, sorry…but you know what I mean? I do believe that abuse went on, but I also have never seen money being paid out like this, with no trial. *

Actually, I like your tangent. Things are seldom as black and white as they appear when read in black and white. I know of actions (inactions) as bad as the worst bishop’s cover-up done by district attorneys. Sometimes there were evidenciary issues, sometimes no justification is apparent. In the case of an elderly or terminally ill person, it is no uncommon to drop the case and let the person die, if death is near.

 

[whatevergirl]

EXACTLY!!!

This is why I am fighting in favor of Men standing up and BE MEN. While serving in the US Army I saw things that infuriated me. It is not popular to speak out against things that happen in the military. The problem with this is that when you say nothing nothing changes until someone finally climbs up the ranks to change things by establishing policies and PRACTICES that modifies improper behavior. The same SHOULD be true in any organization. This should have been dealt with during the time of the Protestant Reformation. It was obviously common knowledge that far too many priests were living in sin, bearing children outside of wedlock, and not stepping up to their responsibilities. Though we are a broken people, why did the Church authority not do something about this back then as well? Sin is a sign is sickness in the soul.

Yes, and the thing I’m telling my kids who are well old enough to understand what the news is saying about our Church, is that the Church was founded by Christ. What has gone on for years, is not what the Church stands for, but there have been men within the Church, who have done sinful things. It opens the door for dialogue about sin, and how we can’t judge these men, only God can. But, if there are men still alive, who were culpable for shifting around abusive priests, if they knew for a fact that these priests should not be around kids? They should be removed. Because if we keep people in the clergy who knew and did nothing, we look rather ridiculous saying we are pro family…pro life…pro children. We have a human clergy, and humans make mistakes…and we are all human and sin. But, that doesn’t mean justice goes ignored. Confession wipes the slate clean, but there are consequences, and what I fear is the lack of trust so many present Catholics have of the Church. I think it’s the unfortunate consequence they wanted to avoid way back when, when all of this was happening…

 

[whatevergirl]

Actually, I like your tangent. Things are seldom as black and white as they appear when read in black and white. I know of actions (inactions) as bad as the worst bishop’s cover-up done by district attorneys. Sometimes there were evidenciary issues, sometimes no justification is apparent. In the case of an elderly or terminally ill person, it is no uncommon to drop the case and let the person die, if death is near.

*Yes, it will be interesting to see…but sad though, too. I don’t like the Church being dragged through the mud like this. Iwill say though, about that dying priest who had allegations brought against him by deaf students at that school…I’d like to know when the allegations were brought up…and who knew …when they knew. I don’t believe it all came to light a few weeks before he died. He asked for pardon when he was dying, and our Pope had to make a decision then. But, I’d like to know when it was brought to light, about those he abused.

 

[The_Geographer]

Yes, and the thing I’m telling my kids who are well old enough to understand what the news is saying about our Church, is that the Church was founded by Christ. What has gone on for years, is not what the Church stands for, but there have been men within the Church, who have done sinful things. It opens the door for dialogue about sin, and how we can’t judge these men, only God can. But, if there are men still alive, who were culpable for shifting around abusive priests, if they knew for a fact that these priests should not be around kids? They should be removed. Because if we keep people in the clergy who knew and did nothing, we look rather ridiculous saying we are pro family…pro life…pro children. We have a human clergy, and humans make mistakes…and we are all human and sin. But, that doesn’t mean justice goes ignored. Confession wipes the slate clean, but there are consequences, and what I fear is the lack of trust so many present Catholics have of the Church. I think it’s the unfortunate consequence they wanted to avoid way back when, when all of this was happening…

Very good post, Whatevergirl.

I still love your username. You do know me, but I’ll have to point out later who I am. I started a new username to reflect my next vocation move to become a teacher. I knew that you would have good or solid things to say once I saw your name.

Atonement for our sins is a must even after forgiveness. So the consequences should not be delayed even though we have been offered forgiveness. Restitution for such sins may have to be paid through purgation instead on on earth.

 

[otjm]

Well, that is my point that every citizen should face the same civil penalty for the same crime. Why is a schoolteacher facing up to eighteen years in prison for involvement with one boy, whereas according to the NYTimes a priest who had involvement with 200 deaf boys did not face any civil penalty?

Most likely the statute of limitations.

Right, wrong or indifferent, the statute is in place to prevent the State (and anyone else) from bringing charges years and years after any reliable witnesses may be gone, dead, and/or memories have failed to the point that the facts cannot be recollected with any assurance of accuracy.

That may not be the best of all worlds, but it has worked reasonably well in most circumstances.

Without at all meaning to impugn the integrity of anyone who has been abused, there have been some cases - a small minority -brought which appear to have no basis in fact. That does not mean that the majority of cases are false, but simply adds to the issue of whether or not statutes of limitations should be waived or extended in such cases. Part of what has gotten caught up in the decisions concerning this aspect have been the enormity of the cases, the identity of the perpetrator (by that, I mean the Church) and the frustration that the system needs to work (that is, the legal one) if this is going to be brought to a conclusion in a way that will get the issue stopped, or at least dealt with in a just fashion.

And before anyone responds that with so many cases charged, that means they happened, wht may or may not have happened in one case does not prove the truth of another case. Further, with really old cases, often the only evidence offered is the victim saying “He did it” and the alleged perpetrator saying “I didn’t”. That should not be sufficient evidence to convict; and if you wnat to say it is, think about the fact that somewhere down the line you could be charged. Factually you didn’t do it. Now, try the other case on for size… it won’t fit very well.

It has been said that our system of justice is lousy, but it is still the best one out there.

 

[whatevergirl]

*Getting back to the title of the thread…

I think that the problem is two fold, as to why all of these abuse cases have come to light. a) There was not formal '‘whistle blower’ policy in place (obviously), all these years. So, people who knew about the abuse, didn’t know where to go or how to handle it…they felt like they would be responsible maybe for another’s demise. Not saying this was right, just saying…there was no formal policy it seems in dealing with these allegations. Thus, the transfer of priests so often. Now, there seems to be policies in place for dealing with abuse, currently.

b) There were not stringent enough entrance exams, to test the mentality of the men coming forth to be priests. This to me is also obvious. And this is why celibacy has no bearing, because we see abuse going on amongst married clergy in non Catholic faiths. Ok…so, now, for example Pope Benedict isn’t letting homosexuals become part of the clergy. We se changes taking place in the regard to making sure men interested in entering the seminary, are mentally ‘‘fit.’’ I think the days are over when men who want to become priests can just begin the process of entering a seminary. I think that has been the problem…that we’d like to believe that men who feel called to the priesthood are doing so with pure motives, but as we can plainly see…that’s not always the case. I’d say it’s the case for the majority, I know many fabulous priests that I have complete trust in, but for many, that’s not the case. I think we as humans like to believe any and all people who call themselves ‘‘christian’’ are well meaning. Nope, it’s just an unfortunate truth that that’s not always the case.

So…this to me, has nothing to do with celibacy. If we continue to let men enter the priesthood who have not undergone stringent psychological testing…to determine if they are fit to handle a priest’s lifestyle…then, we’re really not reforming anything. *

 

[whatevergirl]

Most likely the statute of limitations.

Right, wrong or indifferent, the statute is in place to prevent the State (and anyone else) from bringing charges years and years after any reliable witnesses may be gone, dead, and/or memories have failed to the point that the facts cannot be recollected with any assurance of accuracy.

That may not be the best of all worlds, but it has worked reasonably well in most circumstances.

Without at all meaning to impugn the integrity of anyone who has been abused, there have been some cases - a small minority -brought which appear to have no basis in fact. That does not mean that the majority of cases are false, but simply adds to the issue of whether or not statutes of limitations should be waived or extended in such cases. Part of what has gotten caught up in the decisions concerning this aspect have been the enormity of the cases, the identity of the perpetrator (by that, I mean the Church) and the frustration that the system needs to work (that is, the legal one) if this is going to be brought to a conclusion in a way that will get the issue stopped, or at least dealt with in a just fashion.

And before anyone responds that with so many cases charged, that means they happened, wht may or may not have happened in one case does not prove the truth of another case. Further, with really old cases, often the only evidence offered is the victim saying “He did it” and the alleged perpetrator saying “I didn’t”. That should not be sufficient evidence to convict; and if you wnat to say it is, think about the fact that somewhere down the line you could be charged. Factually you didn’t do it. Now, try the other case on for size… it won’t fit very well.

It has been said that our system of justice is lousy, but it is still the best one out there.

This is SUCH a good post, I agree. I think that what I wrestle with in my own mind…is the disgust of all of this happening over the years…and the other side being that there exists a potential miscarriage of justice, because of the years that have passed. I try to put myself in these victims’ shoes, and I wonder if there isn’t a deliberate intent to wait until many of these priests have died, because deep down, they don’t want to accuse a priest in the public eye. This isn’t like walking down a dark alley, a stranger captures you, and rapes you…you might not be afraid to go to the authorities. But, a priest? Someone whom you trusted with to teach the faith? Someone whom was possibly your teacher? There is a lot of interpersonal reasoning that might go on …so, it somewhat (I’m guessing of course) explains to me, why the victims took long to come forth in a lot of cases.

 

[silentstar]

Heresay evidence is not admissable in court. If the victims, even one, had come forward to the police then they could have pursued a case against the priest. Where have all these victims been? I understand as children their options were limited. But none at no time ever thought that they should say something to the authorities? Where is that story? We can debate or guess how much Pope Benedict knew, or should have known. But not one of these victims ever brought the crime to the police? Moreover, has one report even thought about investigating to see if a report was ever filed with the police, those with the primary responsibility to punish crime.

How has it become popular perception that the victims didn’t say anything for decades?

From the New York Times:

Mr. Budzinski and a group of other deaf former students spent more than 30 years trying to raise the alarm, including passing out leaflets outside the Milwaukee cathedral. Mr. Budzinski’s friend Gary Smith said in an interview that Father Murphy molested him 50 or 60 times, starting at age 12. By the time he graduated from high school at St. John’s, Mr. Smith said, “I was a very, very angry man.”

nytimes.com/2010/03/25/world/europe/25vatican.html?pagewanted=2&hp

These stories are getting publicity now b/c victims have been trying to speak for many years and no one listened until now.

Also from the New York Times:

To many, Father Murphy appeared to be a saint: a hearing man gifted at communicating in American Sign Language and an effective fund-raiser for deaf causes. A priest of the Milwaukee Archdiocese, he started as a teacher at St. John’s School for the Deaf, in St. Francis, in 1950. He was promoted to run the school in 1963 even though students had disclosed to church officials in the 1950s that he was a predator.

And from the same article:

Father Murphy not only was never tried or disciplined by the church’s own justice system, but also got a pass from the police and prosecutors who ignored reports from his victims, according to the documents and interviews with victims. Three successive archbishops in Wisconsin were told that Father Murphy was sexually abusing children, the documents show, but never reported it to criminal or civil authorities.

Instead of being disciplined, Father Murphy was quietly moved by Archbishop William E. Cousins of Milwaukee to the Diocese of Superior in northern Wisconsin in 1974, where he spent his last 24 years working freely with children in parishes, schools and, as one lawsuit charges, a juvenile detention center. He died in 1998, still a priest.

---

This is a case where it can be said that the police behaved atrociously, in my view.

 

[whatevergirl]

How has it become popular perception that the victims didn’t say anything for decades?

From the New York Times:

Mr. Budzinski and a group of other deaf former students spent more than 30 years trying to raise the alarm, including passing out leaflets outside the Milwaukee cathedral. Mr. Budzinski’s friend Gary Smith said in an interview that Father Murphy molested him 50 or 60 times, starting at age 12. By the time he graduated from high school at St. John’s, Mr. Smith said, “I was a very, very angry man.”

nytimes.com/2010/03/25/world/europe/25vatican.html?pagewanted=2&hp

These stories are getting publicity now b/c victims have been trying to speak for many years and no one listened until now.

Also from the New York Times:

To many, Father Murphy appeared to be a saint: a hearing man gifted at communicating in American Sign Language and an effective fund-raiser for deaf causes. A priest of the Milwaukee Archdiocese, he started as a teacher at St. John’s School for the Deaf, in St. Francis, in 1950. He was promoted to run the school in 1963 even though students had disclosed to church officials in the 1950s that he was a predator.

And from the same article:

Father Murphy not only was never tried or disciplined by the church’s own justice system, but also got a pass from the police and prosecutors who ignored reports from his victims, according to the documents and interviews with victims. Three successive archbishops in Wisconsin were told that Father Murphy was sexually abusing children, the documents show, but never reported it to criminal or civil authorities.

Instead of being disciplined, Father Murphy was quietly moved by Archbishop William E. Cousins of Milwaukee to the Diocese of Superior in northern Wisconsin in 1974, where he spent his last 24 years working freely with children in parishes, schools and, as one lawsuit charges, a juvenile detention center. He died in 1998, still a priest.

---

This is a case where it can be said that the police behaved atrociously, in my view.

*Oh my gosh, I’m going to be sick. Ugh, this is horrible. I thought I had read (not this case) but others that yes, some of the victims had come forward. Some took a long time, but many have gone to authorities…not right after it happened. They were kids.

Oh God, please help your blessed and beautiful Church during this time…please help us as lay people to do our part to not let this shake our faith, and to come together to support the Church that Your Son gave to us. In Jesus’ name, we pray. *

 

[pnewton]

How has it become popular perception that the victims didn’t say anything for decades?

From the New York Times:

Mr. Budzinski and a group of other deaf former students spent more than 30 years trying to raise the alarm, including passing out leaflets outside the Milwaukee cathedral. Mr. Budzinski’s friend Gary Smith said in an interview that Father Murphy molested him 50 or 60 times, starting at age 12. By the time he graduated from high school at St. John’s, Mr. Smith said, “I was a very, very angry man.”

Wow. I tell you why it has become a popular perception. I was suckered by the Times. I can not believe that they spoke out and the Times is just now reporting this and blaming the Catholic Church??? Un believable. If the information was already public, then it was not the Church’s responsibility to punish the crime. Why is the police and judicial system being drug through the mud? They have the first and only duty to punish those offenders.

I never dreamed that even the Times would be so obtuse. That is why I has assumed this had to have been kept quiet. If this was not the Church, but Microsoft, Inc., I would say the same thing. These crimes are to be punished by the judicial system, not the employer.

Everytime I think I can read the media carefully enough not to be taken, something comes along to show that I am not as wise as they are.

 

[otjm]

I will say this.

I do believe that we may be in the transitioning stage where married priests in the Latin Rite may come back. But we must remember the honor and dignity of the existing and future celibate priests. I would also say that a celibate priest must now be required to be part of a Vatican recognized religious order. This formation will help keep them spiritually formed in the light of Christ.

Sorry, but given the order that is currently going through a “visitation” because of the sexual abuse of the founder (and the deep, deep denial on the part of senior members of the order who knew or should have known) indicates that is no guarantee either.

 

[whatevergirl]

Wow. I tell you why it has become a popular perception. I was suckered by the Times. I can not believe that they spoke out and the Times is just now reporting this and blaming the Catholic Church??? Un believable. If the information was already public, then it was not the Church’s responsibility to punish the crime. Why is the police and judicial system being drug through the mud? They have the first and only duty to punish those offenders.

I never dreamed that even the Times would be so obtuse. That is why I has assumed this had to have been kept quiet. If this was not the Church, but Microsoft, Inc., I would say the same thing. These crimes are to be punished by the judicial system, not the employer.

Everytime I think I can read the media carefully enough not to be taken, something comes along to show that I am not as wise as they are.

Well…a secular employer having discovered that one of its employees was molesting kids? Would be fired…and reported to the police. These priests should have been swiftly removed, and that part lies in the Church’s hands to have done. The rest is up to the courts. As Catholics, we can’t pretend this didn’t happen…it happened. Many people hate the Church, true. But, that doesn’t negate the shocking facts that abuse was happening for years, and no one in the Church, did a thing to stop it.

 

[aicirt]

Read the NYTimes article. Apparently, a lawyer didn’t get involved until 1997 meanwhile the deaf victims had been protesting for decades. Why didn’t their parents take action? Why did it take so long for an attorney for the victims to get involved?