Archbishop of San Francisco warns of coming war on marriage

[DrTaffy]

Originally Posted by DrTaffy
To me marriage is about love, mutual support and a shared life.

That was not a ‘definition’ but a statement of what I think it is about. If you are saying that it is solely about graphically described sex acts, then are you arguing that rape is a valid marriage?

See, both sides can play the ‘silly strawman’ game.

 

[FollowChrist34]

I feel that polygamy is a bad idea, and that there is objective evidence supporting that.

You feel it is a bad idea. But you concede that your argument for gay marriage and your definition of marriage logically allow for it. You are assuming a moral difference between the two (gay marriage vs. polygamy) but you have nothing whatsoever to support that claim.

 

[edwest2]

It is highly debateable whether or not you can choose your sexuality. You can certainly not choose your physical birth gender, which is the relevant comparison to race in drawing the parallel between same sex marriage and different race marriage.

On the other hand you can clearly choose your religion, which is fairly universally accepted, especially here, as a protected class.

Obsessing over what other people do with their genitalia is irrelevant to this discussion. To reduce marriage to ‘using your genitals in a particular way’ is offensive and demeaning in so many ways.

It’s the truth. Each individual decides what to do with their genitals. It’s a choice, regardless of sexual orientation, but that fact cannot be allowed to spread. Not among the general population.

Ed

 

[Sy_Noe]

You DO see the tremendous irony in this post, right?

Not so much since I might be the first to profess/admit that I’m human and don’t with such certainty know for sure that I am right in what are essentially matters of faith. And I’m perfectly fine, my brain and all, not thinking I have to.

 

[edwest2]

It’s only strange if humans believe they are infinite and all knowing beings as God and do not believe humans have finite understanding of the absolute truth. And believe that God is incapable of still speaking and that our understandings of God and of matters of faith can’t grow or evolve over time as we seek and walk along our lifelong journeys in faith and belief according to our understandings and our own unique experiences.

Regarding this issue, there will be no “grow or evolve.” The date on the calendar has nothing to do with anything. Opposing same-sex marriage is a duty. If anyone disagrees, it’s their choice, but NO Christian should believe any predictions about the future regarding this.

We are not the Teaching Authority of the Church. Informed obedience is required.

Ed

 

[Sy_Noe]

I’ve never understood the “I’m Catholic but don’t believe the things the Catholic Church teaches” argument.

It’s utterly illogical. Nobody’s forcing you to be here. Is it some kind of cultural attachment? Do you just like the music? Hanging out with people on Sunday?

I’ve never understood it either. I wish the Church would change their teaching and say being baptized or confirmed in a Catholic Church does not make one a Catholic. It would be easier for me. Then I wouldn’t need to describe myself as a non practicing one.

 

[edwest2]

So we make it up as we go along? we determine what we want to believe and create a god who supports that?

That’s what it boils down to. “I’ll decide for myself” or “I’ll find a Church that worships a God that believes what I do.”

Truth is truth, regardless of “internet opinion culture.”

Ed

 

[Sy_Noe]

Oh come now darlin’, it’s really not that complicated. When you say, “an employee benefit is a civil contract, not a Church teaching,” (a statement with which I whole-heartedly agree), are you agreeing that Catholic hospitals should extend benefits to legally married same sex spouses?

A Catholic Bishop in MO recently had this to say about a Catholic hospital system extending benefits to same sex spouses:

“Recognizing God’s plan for marriage is not a matter of ‘the Church’s position,’ as Mercy characterized it, but rather, one of God’s own Word,” Johnston said. “And while the statement does not specify the ‘government regulations’ Mercy claims to require this change, no believing Christian worthy of the name should violate God’s law because of ‘regulations.’ Our ancestors refused to abandon the faith even when subjected to the cruelty and torture of the Roman Empire, but in our age unspecified ‘regulations,’ government funds, and fear of public ridicule is sufficient in order to secure the compliance of some.”

news-leader.com/story/news/business/2015/01/15/bishop-deeply-concerned-mercy-decision-offer-sex-benefits/21831873/

My question to Bishop Johnston, and to you, if you agree with him is:

If requiring Catholic hospitals to extend benefits to same sex spouses is violating the Church’s religious freedom…having the effect of forcing the Church to endorse gay marriage, then how is extending benefits to divorced and remarried couples (with no nullification of the previous marriage), not also an endorsement of divorce and adultery? Why the inconsistency?

I’m not really a betting person but if I were, I’d bet you’re a spunky gal from Savannah. Give it time. I can’t because I still see inconsistency in it. But someone will try to explain the inconsistency if there is a good explanation.

 

[estesbob]

It’s only strange if humans believe they are infinite and all knowing beings as God and do not believe humans have finite understanding of the absolute truth. And believe that God is incapable of still speaking and that our understandings of God and of matters of faith can’t grow or evolve over time as we seek and walk along our lifelong journeys in faith and belief according to our understandings and our own unique experiences.

So he speaks differently to us now than he did 2,000 ago? Why did he change his mind?

 

[estesbob]

That’s what it boils down to. “I’ll decide for myself” or “I’ll find a Church that worships a God that believes what I do.”

Truth is truth, regardless of “internet opinion culture.”

Ed

And if they cant find such a Church they start their own.

 

[Thorolfr]

You feel it is a bad idea. But you concede that your argument for gay marriage and your definition of marriage logically allow for it. You are assuming a moral difference between the two (gay marriage vs. polygamy) but you have nothing whatsoever to support that claim.

I don’t personally support polygamy, but even as a Christian, I find it hard to argue against it from a Biblical stand point. Polygamy was widely practiced in the Old Testament and God didn’t seem to mind:

Genesis 16:3: So, after Abram had lived ten years in the land of Canaan, Sarai, Abram’s wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her slave-girl, and gave her to her husband Abram as a wife.

Genesis 29:20-28: So Jacob served seven years for Rachel, and they seemed to him but a few days because of the love he had for her. Then Jacob said to Laban, “Give me my wife that I may go in to her, for my time is completed.” So Laban gathered together all the people of the place and made a feast. But in the evening he took his daughter Leah and brought her to Jacob, and he went in to her. (Laban gave** his female servant Zilpah to his daughter Leah to be her servant.) And in the morning, behold, it was Leah! And Jacob said to Laban, “What is this you have done to me? Did I not serve with you for Rachel? Why then have you deceived me?” Laban said, “It is not so done in our country, to give the younger before the firstborn. Complete the week of this one, and we will give you the other also in return for serving me another seven years.” Jacob did so, and completed her week. Then Laban gave him his daughter Rachel to be his wife.

Judges 8:29-32: Jerubbaal the son of Joash went and lived in his own house. Now Gideon had seventy sons, his own offspring,for he had many wives. And his concubine who was in Shechem also bore him a son, and he called his name Abimelech.

1 Samuel 1:1-2: There was a certain man of Ramathaim-zophim of the hill country of Ephraim whose name was Elkanah [this was Samuel’s father] the son of Jeroham, son of Elihu, son of Tohu, son of Zuph, an Ephrathite. He had two wives. The name of the one was Hannah, and the name of the other, Peninnah.

2 Samuel 3:2-5: And sons were born to David at Hebron: his firstborn was Amnon, of Ahinoam of Jezreel; and his second, Chileab, of Abigail the widow of Nabal of Carmel; and the third, Absalom the son of Maacah the daughter of Talmai king of Geshur; and the fourth, Adonijah the son of Haggith; and the fifth, Shephatiah the son of Abital; and the sixth, Ithream, of Eglah, David’s wife. These were born to David in Hebron.

1 Kings 11:1-3: Now King Solomon loved many foreign women, along with the daughter of Pharaoh: Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, Sidonian, and Hittite women, from the nations…He had 700 wives, who were princesses, and 300 concubines.**

 

[Sy_Noe]

So he speaks differently to us now than he did 2,000 ago? Why did he change his mind?

I haven’t seen anyone say he changed his mind from what he intended.

 

[Sy_Noe]

I don’t personally support polygamy, but even as a Christian, I find it hard to argue against it from a Biblical stand point. Polygamy was widely practiced in the Old Testament and God didn’t seem to mind:

Genesis 16:3: So, after Abram had lived ten years in the land of Canaan, Sarai, Abram’s wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her slave-girl, and gave her to her husband Abram as a wife.

Genesis 29:20-28: So Jacob served seven years for Rachel, and they seemed to him but a few days because of the love he had for her. Then Jacob said to Laban, “Give me my wife that I may go in to her, for my time is completed.” So Laban gathered together all the people of the place and made a feast. But in the evening he took his daughter Leah and brought her to Jacob, and he went in to her. (Laban gave** his female servant Zilpah to his daughter Leah to be her servant.) And in the morning, behold, it was Leah! And Jacob said to Laban, “What is this you have done to me? Did I not serve with you for Rachel? Why then have you deceived me?” Laban said, “It is not so done in our country, to give the younger before the firstborn. Complete the week of this one, and we will give you the other also in return for serving me another seven years.” Jacob did so, and completed her week. Then Laban gave him his daughter Rachel to be his wife.

Judges 8:29-32: Jerubbaal the son of Joash went and lived in his own house. Now Gideon had seventy sons, his own offspring,for he had many wives**. And his concubine who was in Shechem also bore him a son, and he called his name Abimelech.

1 Samuel 1:1-2: There was a certain man of Ramathaim-zophim of the hill country of Ephraim whose name was Elkanah [this was Samuel’s father] the son of Jeroham, son of Elihu, son of Tohu, son of Zuph, an Ephrathite. He had two wives. The name of the one was Hannah, and the name of the other, Peninnah.

2 Samuel 3:2-5: And sons were born to David at Hebron: his firstborn was Amnon, of Ahinoam of Jezreel; and his second, Chileab, of Abigail the widow of Nabal of Carmel; and the third, Absalom the son of Maacah the daughter of Talmai king of Geshur; and the fourth, Adonijah the son of Haggith; and the fifth, Shephatiah the son of Abital; and the sixth, Ithream, of Eglah, David’s wife. These were born to David in Hebron.

1 Kings 11:1-3: Now King Solomon loved many foreign women, along with the daughter of Pharaoh: Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, Sidonian, and Hittite women, from the nations…He had 700 wives, who were princesses, and 300 concubines.

as well as to the slavery reference you mentioned earlier.

 

[estesbob]

I haven’t seen anyone say he changed his mind from what he intended.

So we just got it wrong for 2,000 years and he left us in ignorance until this “enlightened” generation came along and figured out the truth?

 

[SavannahGal]

I personally believe it is a patently racist proposition. Trying to use the experiences of African Americans to advance a sexual agenda is disgusting.

Source: Reuters, March 31, 1998.
Coretta Scott King, speaking four days before the 30th anniversary of her husband’s assassination, said Tuesday the civil rights leader’s memory demanded a strong stand for gay and lesbian rights. “I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice,” she said. “But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, ‘Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.’” “I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream to make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people,” she said.

Source: Chicago Defender, April 1, 1998, front page.
Speaking before nearly 600 people at the Palmer House Hilton Hotel,
Coretta Scott King, the wife of the late Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Tuesday called on the civil rights community to join in the struggle against homophobia and anti-gay bias. “Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood,” King stated.

Source: Chicago Sun Times, April 1, 1998, p.18.
“We are all tied together in a single garment of destiny . . . I can never be what I ought to be until you are allowed to be what you ought to be,” she said, quoting her husband. “I’ve always felt that homophobic attitudes and policies were unjust and unworthy of a free society and must be opposed by all Americans who believe in democracy,” King told 600 people at the Palmer House Hilton, days before the 30th anniversary of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.'s assassination on April 4, 1968. She said the civil rights movement “thrives on unity and inclusion, not division and exclusion.” Her husband’s struggle parallels that of the gay rights movement, she said.

Source: Chicago Tribune, April 1, 1998, sec.2, p.4.
“For many years now, I have been an outspoken supporter of civil and human rights for gay and lesbian people,” King said at the 25th Anniversary Luncheon for the Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund… “Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma, in Albany, Ga. and St. Augustine, Fla., and many other campaigns of the Civil Rights Movement,” she said. “Many of these courageous men and women were fighting for my freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their own, and I salute their contributions.”

Source: Coretta Scott King, remarks, Opening Plenary Session, 13th annual Creating Change conference of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, Atlanta, Georgia, November 9, 2000.
“We have a lot more work to do in our common struggle against bigotry and discrimination. I say ‘common struggle’ because I believe very strongly that all forms of bigotry and discrimination are equally wrong and should be opposed by right-thinking Americans everywhere. Freedom from discrimination based on sexual orientation is surely a fundamental human right in any great democracy, as much as freedom from racial, religious, gender, or ethnic discrimination.”

 

[Thorolfr]

So we just got it wrong for 2,000 years and he left us in ignorance until this “enlightened” generation came along and figured out the truth?

As Martin Luther King liked to say (quoting the 19th century abolitionist Theodore Parker), “The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.” So I do think that we human beings are, little-by-little, becoming more enlightened and more just in some ways.

 

[Sy_Noe]

So we just got it wrong for 2,000 years and he left us in ignorance until this “enlightened” generation came along and figured out the truth?

You’re asking the wrong person. While I don’t believe everything is relative and do believe in an ultimate truth, I don’t pretend that I, a mere mortal finite human being, can know without a doubt what it is and that I know with such certainty and that I’m right about everything. That much pride makes my brain hurt.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Source: Reuters, March 31, 1998.
Coretta Scott King, speaking four days before the 30th anniversary of her husband’s assassination, said Tuesday the civil rights leader’s memory demanded a strong stand for gay and lesbian rights. “I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice,” she said. “But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, ‘Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.’” “I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream to make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people,” she said.

Source: Chicago Defender, April 1, 1998, front page.
Speaking before nearly 600 people at the Palmer House Hilton Hotel,
Coretta Scott King, the wife of the late Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Tuesday called on the civil rights community to join in the struggle against homophobia and anti-gay bias. “Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood,” King stated.

Source: Chicago Sun Times, April 1, 1998, p.18.
“We are all tied together in a single garment of destiny . . . I can never be what I ought to be until you are allowed to be what you ought to be,” she said, quoting her husband. “I’ve always felt that homophobic attitudes and policies were unjust and unworthy of a free society and must be opposed by all Americans who believe in democracy,” King told 600 people at the Palmer House Hilton, days before the 30th anniversary of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.'s assassination on April 4, 1968. She said the civil rights movement “thrives on unity and inclusion, not division and exclusion.” Her husband’s struggle parallels that of the gay rights movement, she said.

Source: Chicago Tribune, April 1, 1998, sec.2, p.4.
“For many years now, I have been an outspoken supporter of civil and human rights for gay and lesbian people,” King said at the 25th Anniversary Luncheon for the Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund… “Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma, in Albany, Ga. and St. Augustine, Fla., and many other campaigns of the Civil Rights Movement,” she said. “Many of these courageous men and women were fighting for my freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their own, and I salute their contributions.”

Source: Coretta Scott King, remarks, Opening Plenary Session, 13th annual Creating Change conference of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, Atlanta, Georgia, November 9, 2000.
“We have a lot more work to do in our common struggle against bigotry and discrimination. I say ‘common struggle’ because I believe very strongly that all forms of bigotry and discrimination are equally wrong and should be opposed by right-thinking Americans everywhere. Freedom from discrimination based on sexual orientation is surely a fundamental human right in any great democracy, as much as freedom from racial, religious, gender, or ethnic discrimination.”

That was absolutely beautiful to read. One of the best posts on this thread I believe. Thank you so much for posting it SavannahGal. Yes we can still have the dream and walk towards a time when it is merely not a dream. But it’s fullness realized. Honestly reading this has brought a tear to my eyes. God so bless you for sharing that.

 

[FollowChrist34]

I don’t personally support polygamy, but even as a Christian, I find it hard to argue against it from a Biblical stand point. Polygamy was widely practiced in the Old Testament and God didn’t seem to mind:

Genesis 16:3: So, after Abram had lived ten years in the land of Canaan, Sarai, Abram’s wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her slave-girl, and gave her to her husband Abram as a wife.

Genesis 29:20-28: So Jacob served seven years for Rachel, and they seemed to him but a few days because of the love he had for her. Then Jacob said to Laban, “Give me my wife that I may go in to her, for my time is completed.” So Laban gathered together all the people of the place and made a feast. But in the evening he took his daughter Leah and brought her to Jacob, and he went in to her. (Laban gave** his female servant Zilpah to his daughter Leah to be her servant.) And in the morning, behold, it was Leah! And Jacob said to Laban, “What is this you have done to me? Did I not serve with you for Rachel?
Why then have you deceived me?” Laban said, “It is not so done in our country, to give the younger before the firstborn. Complete the week of this one, and we will give you the other also in return for serving me another seven years.” Jacob did so, and completed her week. Then Laban gave him his daughter Rachel to be his wife.

Judges 8:29-32: Jerubbaal the son of Joash went and lived in his own house. Now Gideon had seventy sons, his own offspring,for he had many wives**. And his concubine who was in Shechem also bore him a son, and he called his name Abimelech.

1 Samuel 1:1-2: There was a certain man of Ramathaim-zophim of the hill country of Ephraim whose name was Elkanah [this was Samuel’s father] the son of Jeroham, son of Elihu, son of Tohu, son of Zuph, an Ephrathite. He had two wives. The name of the one was Hannah, and the name of the other, Peninnah.

2 Samuel 3:2-5: And sons were born to David at Hebron: his firstborn was Amnon, of Ahinoam of Jezreel; and his second, Chileab, of Abigail the widow of Nabal of Carmel; and the third, Absalom the son of Maacah the daughter of Talmai king of Geshur; and the fourth, Adonijah the son of Haggith; and the fifth, Shephatiah the son of Abital; and the sixth, Ithream, of Eglah, David’s wife. These were born to David in Hebron.

1 Kings 11:1-3: Now King Solomon loved many foreign women, along with the daughter of Pharaoh: Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, Sidonian, and Hittite women, from the nations…He had 700 wives, who were princesses, and 300 concubines.

God does NOT condone polygamy in the Old Testament, not a single passage. Likewise Christianity and the New Testament do not condone polygamy.

 

[edwest2]

And if they cant find such a Church they start their own.

Yes. Unfortunately, once enough people get together that believe the same things, they can create a church that is for everything the secular world is for plus spiritualism, which can be attached to any established religion or universalized. And there are groups that use the word Catholic in their name, but they support things that are clearly against Church teaching.

Best,
Ed