Archives Show Church Excommunicated Nazis

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I’m willing to give the Vatican the benefit of the doubt on this one, but the issue has been described differently by others. One should note that in the famous movie “Two Women” (for which a young Sophia Loren got an Oscar), the rapists in Rome were Moroccan troops. So, I guess this was a fixation for the locals.
I think your problem is that you don’t seem to realize what documentation means. If someone says the pope wrote this or wrote that you need to see the original documents to see just what was said. 60 Minutes was jumping to conclusions without actually examining a document. Citing a “famous movie” isn’t a source of historical documentation either. “Two Women” was adapted from a novel. Novels are never a source of historical fact.

C.
 
I’m willing to give the Vatican the benefit of the doubt on this one, but the issue has been described differently by others. One should note that in the famous movie “Two Women” (for which a young Sophia Loren got an Oscar), the rapists in Rome were Moroccan troops. So, I guess this was a fixation for the locals.
Actually the use of French Algerian troops was a sore point for many Europeans, even prior to World War II. Hitler, in Mein Kampf, mentions specifically the use of Algerian troops by the French to de-militarize the Rhineland after WWI as being particularly egregious. The main reason mentioned by Hitler was the fear that the Algerians would rape and otherwise brutalize German women, in particular and the German population in general. Hitler, if I remember correctly, also felt that the use of Algerian troops by the French also showed the French hatred and disdain for the Germans that they wouldn’t even send white troops in to occupy the Rhineland.

ChadS
 
Actually the use of French Algerian troops was a sore point for many Europeans, even prior to World War II. Hitler, in Mein Kampf, mentions specifically the use of Algerian troops by the French to de-militarize the Rhineland after WWI as being particularly egregious. The main reason mentioned by Hitler was the fear that the Algerians would rape and otherwise brutalize German women, in particular and the German population in general. Hitler, if I remember correctly, also felt that the use of Algerian troops by the French also showed the French hatred and disdain for the Germans that they wouldn’t even send white troops in to occupy the Rhineland.

ChadS
Something which the Algerians must have learned from the French, whom in 1830, were conquered by Marshall Bugeaud, who waged war involving scorched earth, and mass rape.

mondediplo.com/2001/06/11torture2
On 29 December of that year General Thomas Bugeaud, just appointed governor of the colony, arrived in Algeria, marking the real start of the country’s conquest. The means employed were atrocious. The army massacred or deported villagers en masse; raped women and took children hostage; stole harvests and livestock and destroyed orchards. Louis-Philippe, and subsequently Napoleon III, awarded their generals with promotion. The careers of several field marshals and a minister of war owed a great deal to the piles of Algerian and Kabyle corpses (1).
Later on, after the war, Algeria started a war of independance with France (1954 to 1961) where torture and other brutality was used on by both sides.

God bless,
Ut
 
Something which the Algerians must have learned from the French, whom in 1830, were conquered by Marshall Bugeaud, who waged war involving scorched earth, and mass rape.

Later on, after the war, Algeria started a war of independance with France (1954 to 1961) where torture and other brutality was used on by both sides.

God bless,
Ut
Yes, the French could be just as a brutal colonial superpower as any other. Nobody ever managed to singularly corner that market.

ChadS
 
I think your problem is that you don’t seem to realize what documentation means.
If that were my problem I’d be well-off!

I can’t help it if folks here don’t have my powers of recall. That particular didoe in the history of Pius XII got wide play in the newspapers not too long ago. So, I am somewhat surprised when folks demand ‘documentation’.
Citing a “famous movie” isn’t a source of historical documentation either.
That’s why I didn’t cite it for that purpose. I remembered in the sixties that some of our militant brethren objected to the aspect of a depiction of dark men raping white women. Rape in WWII was not defined by or restricted to racial and national groups.

Once again, recall. I’m old.
Novels are never a source of historical fact.
This has been an educational afternoon for me.
 
Hitler, if I remember correctly, also felt that the use of Algerian troops by the French also showed the French hatred and disdain for the Germans that they wouldn’t even send white troops in to occupy the Rhineland.
After World War I, there were a number of babies born in the Rhineland and in Alsace-Lorraine who had been fathered by French troops from Algeria and from tropical Africa. After the Nazis came into power they had a program of sterilizing these children born of mixed unions.

See: "“La Honte Noire - L’Allemagne et les troupes coloniales françaises 1914-1945”
by Jean-Yves Le Naour
 
After World War I, there were a number of babies born in the Rhineland and in Alsace-Lorraine who had been fathered by French troops from Algeria and from tropical Africa. After the Nazis came into power they had a program of sterilizing these children born of mixed unions.

See: "“La Honte Noire - L’Allemagne et les troupes coloniales françaises 1914-1945”
by Jean-Yves Le Naour
That book seems incredibly interesting, unfortunately the last French course I had was quite a while ago in college and now any attempts to read it makes my head hurt. I’m going to check Jstor and see if there is anything in the much-more-accessible-for-me English.

I hope in the things I wrote it was clear that was Hitler’s opinion of the situation and it was a paraphrase of his Mein Kampf.

ChadS
 
In my library, we have “Circulation Information for La Première Guerre Mondiale pour les Nuls” by Jean-Yves Le Naour. Maybe I’ll check that one out and then ask the library to order the one you mentioned.

God bless,
Ut
 
The reasons why Ireland stayed out of the war had more to do with nationalism than Catholicism (I’m Irish btw).
Firstly we never aided the axis powers; any German personnel caught in the republic were interred in a military POW camp till after the war, allied personnel were quietly ferried over the border. In fact London was informed when U-boats were sighted.

Secondly given the very bloody relationship between our two countries, (Britain and Ireland) there were real fears that there would be a second civil war if we joined the allies. extremist groups such as the IRA thought that ‘the enemy of my enemy is my friend’ policy was the best way forward and they did collaborate with the Nazi’s. This was NOT the policy of the Irish government of the time and Indeed the IRA were an illegal group by this point.

Lastly in 1939 we could not have defended ourselves against invasion by either side (both allies and axis had devised plans in case the had to invade us) nutrality was our only option.
An enlightening Letter to the Editor of the Sunday Independent, January 9, 2005

RUSSELL, KNAVE OR NAIVE?

Sir - Sean Russell was a man whom de Valera once considered worth making the effort to save from himself. Russell had given sterling service in the 20th century’s first war for democracy - the Irish War of Independence fought to give effect to the democratic mandate of the 1918 Elections. But having failed to persuade Russell to accept the democratic mandate of his later Republican election victories of the Thirties, de Valera was left with no option but to act ruthlessly and with resolve against Russell and his IRA followers.

By all means condemn Russell, as I have always done, for his actions in defiance of de Valera, specifically his 1939 bombing campaign in England, followed by his request for German aid to mount an IRA invasion of the North. If Russell’s plan had materialised it would have had the knock-on effect of either a German or British invasion and occupation of Southern Ireland, bringing to nought de Valera’s skillful safeguarding of this State from both war and fascism.

Condemnation of Russell is one thing; character assassination is quite a different matter. Russell was not the Holocaust-championing caricature painted by the so-called “anti-fascist” gang responsible for the paramilitary destruction of his monument on December 30. Nor is your report by Jim Cusack (January 2) accurate in stating that it had previously “been vandalised by communists in the Fifties” because it originally was supposed to have had Russell’s arm “raised in a Nazi-style salute”. On the contrary, it had originally been a clenched-fist, which was denounced as “communist” by the anti-semitic and clerical-fascist organisation Maria Duce, who then proceeded to amputate the offending Russell arm.

The facts regarding Russell and Nazi Germany are as follows: The UK Public Records Office has released files which show that after intensive post-War interrogation of German intelligence agents at the highest level, British intelligence itself concluded in 1946 that “Russell throughout his stay in Germany had shown considerable reticence towards the Germans and plainly did not regard himself as a German agent”.

In his 1958 novelVictors and VanquishedFrancis Stuart observed of the Russell-based character’s outspokenness in Berlin: “Pro-German when it comes to the English, and pro-Jew when it’s a question of the Germans”. One might be forgiven for dismissing this as another of Stuart’s literary inventions were it not for the fact that this assessment was corroborated by a far more significant witness - the Austrian Erwin Lahousen, the first and most important witness for the prosecution at the Nuremberg War Crimes Trials in 1945. Lahousen had been head of the second bureau of the German Intelligence Service from 1939 to 1943. A devoutly-religious Catholic, Lahousen loathed Nazism and had been the key figure in an aborted pre-War plot to assassinate Hitler.

By common consent, it was Lahousen’s evidence at Nuremberg that ensured that Hitler’s foreign minister Ribbentrop would be sentenced to death.

It was the self-same Lahousen who proceeded to offer the following character reference on behalf of Russell: “The Irishman was a hyper-sensitive Celt who, however willing he might be to use the Germans for his own political ends, regarded the Nazi philosophy as anathema”. Lahousen said that “Russell was the only one of the IRA with whom I dealt who was a real Irish Republican of the old school”: After what Lahousen described as “one of Russell’s fiery denunciations of the Nazi attempts to indoctrinate him”, the IRA leader further proclaimed:

“I am not a Nazi. I’m not even pro-German. I am an Irishman fighting for the independence of Ireland. The British have been our enemies for hundreds of years. They are the enemies of Germany today. If it suits Germany to give us help to achieve independence I am willing to accept it, but no more, and there must be no strings to the help”.

This, of course, was extremely naive. As regards his dealings with Nazi Germany, Russell is to be condemned more as a fool than a knave. But notwithstanding that condemnation, Sean Russell is still entitled to the integrity of his reputation, in death no less than in life.

Manus O’Riordan, Glasnevin, D11
 
  1. The Papacy was not pleased with Hitler before he came to power. The Catholic party helped him do that. Hitler’s enemies included many left-wing enemies of the church. Hitler emphasized (strange as it now sounds) traditional family values.
  2. The Papacy began to view Germany more favorably because it was seen as the main bulwark against Communism, which Pius XII saw as the biggest threat to the church. The USSR, of course, was officially atheistic and against religion generally.
  3. Hitler and Mussolini (both baptized Catholics) gave military and other support to Franco.
  4. While Pius XII was against the war in the west, he favored a German victory in the east once Hitler invaded the USSR. In 1939, he had been deeply troubled by Hitler’s attack upon Poland, a strongly Catholic country.
  5. It’s important to remember that Pius XII was an Italian, and it would not be unexpected that he had some nationalist identification with his country, especially since Mussolini had signed a concordat with the Vatican.
  6. The idea that Pius XII excommunicated Nazis is rather preposterous. It would have been known and could have helped undermine Hitler early on. At least a third of Germany was Catholic, and Hitler’s earliest successes were in places like Bavaria where Catholicism was dominant. The main opposition to Hitler - before and during the war - came from Prussia, where Protestantism was stronger.
  7. There likely is an overemphasis on all sides in this debate. Pius XII was not pro-Hitler, and evidence suggest that the Papacy did save some Jews. A much stronger message against the holocaust should have been delivered publicly by the Pope. The greater concern of the Papacy was the interest of the church, tragically more important than the fate of the Jews. There also seems to be considerable evidence that the Papacy helped some Nazis escape to Catholic countries in Latin America.
  1. agreed, though the eyes focused upon the sparticists who had gained limited power, and were opposed by the right wing Free corps. surprisingly though the catholic center parties vote remained consistent throughout the various elections, only losing a percentage some time later.
  2. Not sure what you mean here, are you referencing the German State, or the NSDAP, the distinction is important. Because if it is the former, then it is important to note that even England favored the Freecorps intervention in the Baltic to prevent a communist takeover.
  3. the Spanish Civil War is not a topic of which I can boast many sources, though in response to your last post: making the point that Hitler and Mussolini were baptized Catholics is rather silly and misleading, and bears no relevance to your point. Hitler and Mussolini threw there support behind Franco because he was fascist (and because they wanted to test their new air force), not because he was Catholic. Hitler (and I believe Mussolini as well) held no loyalty to the Church or the faith, and was very antagonistic of the Church.
  4. Not sure what to say here, I have read no published or well established sources to suggest this. Much of the Popes greatest successes were in the East (Balkans, and Poland) , The invasion of the USSR would only have been seen as favorable for it made administration of these areas far more difficult, and would relieve pressure on areas offering resistance.
 
5.I would agree that Pope Pius could well have had Nationalistic feelings toward Italy, but I would not agree that the concordant is any evidence of this. Mussolini had ushered in an entirely new regime, It was important to define the boundaries, borders, rights of the government and the Church, as is the case with Germany. A concordant was an assurance that Church properties and rights were not infringed upon. It is similar to the Pope meeting with the current U.S. President.
  1. This is just Misinformed as far as I can tell. Bavarian support was limited to the more to the Cities such as Munich, from the country sides though, Hitler felt little love or support. In fact the only occasions in which protests and riots flared against Hitler after he had assumed power, were in Bavaria, and were organized by the Bishops and Clergy. Because of these protests, Hitler had three parish priests beheaded, though he refrained from killing the Bishop. Also, the resistance from Prussians had little to do with their protestantism, and more with the intrusion of the Party into Military matters, and the transfer of power from the nobles of Prussia to the Party (much of the officer corps being made up of Prussians and nobles), in actuality, it was from the south that Hitler found much of his resistance (not to belittle the rest of the country, from which many heroic figures arose to fight Hitler).----> For more info on the protests in particular, there are several resources which touch upon the Aktion t4 program, and Catholic opposition to it.
  2. A few Jews would equate to the estimated sum of some 7 to 800,000 lives. At this point in History, we do not know what the response or effect of a public outcry by the Pope would have, we can only wonder. However I suspect that the Pope may have been correct in his choice to avoid open confrontation, as you say in your next post, he was surrounded. For one the Thousands of subversive activities the church was already engaging in would likely have been compromised, and all churches would have become fair game for police forces and not just agents of the SD. Some say that had he spoken out uprisings could sprung up in the south and devasted the war effort, I do not think this is correct. For one Bavarian Units would NOT be used to put down the revolts, It would be the task of SS forces from the North who have no ties to the Catholic Bavarians (the SS were also highly irreligious, religion being frowned upon by SS administration). The results of an outcry could have resulted in the slaughter of Millions, perhaps even the 800,000 the Church had sought to save. The Pope undoubtedly realized the that his words could have had disastrous consequences, and chose them carefully.

Sources include (but are not limited to):

“The Sword and the Swastika” by Telford Taylor
“The Secretary” (a biography of Martin Bormann), by Jochen Von Lang
“The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” by William L. Shirer
" The Holocaust" by Martin Gilbert
(I shall post further books later, and with requests can post relevant page numbers in each)

Primary sources are currently limited to what I can obtain at NARA, though I intend to branch out later (with the proper funding of course).
  • had to delete certain posts in the quote, for I have too many characters.
 
You won’t see that article in the National “Catholic” Reporter!
 
NEW YORK, APRIL 16, 2010 (Zenit.org).- An interreligious group trying to discover the facts regarding Pope Pius XII and his efforts to help Jews during World War II has announced the discovery of documents showing how the Church excommunicated Catholics who joined the Nazis.

More…
Without commenting on the the actual papers, I just want to point out that Pave The Way seems to be primarily in existence as a kind of apologist organization for Poper Pius XII. It’s a little misleading for the article to refer to them as an interreligious organization.

Here’s a link they provide to copies of the documents. www.ptwf.org.
 
Without commenting on the the actual papers, I just want to point out that Pave The Way seems to be primarily in existence as a kind of apologist organization for Poper Pius XII. It’s a little misleading for the article to refer to them as an interreligious organization.

Here’s a link they provide to copies of the documents. www.ptwf.org.
Thanks for the link to the website. Did you happen to look up the About Us page?

ptwf.org/AboutUs/

On the board of directors, they have six rabbies, two muslim, one Hindu, and several priests.

They also work on a lot more than just Pius XII. They justify their work on Pius by pointing to their mandate. They want to remove non religious obstacles to inter-faith dailogue.

God bless,
Ut
 
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