Are all prophets sinless?

[famdigy]

So she was killed because Muhammad considered her words a threat yet “Two goats won’t butt their heads about her”, which makes us wonder, if she were so insignificant, why kill her?

I should add that this narration is deemed a forgery because one of the narrators “Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj” is a known forger of hadith

 

[R_not]

I have written this before and I have to write it again - it is just neverending the atrocities of mohammed and his followers.

I find where the example of the prophet has led his followers to kill an old woman by ripping her apart.

Is this the man that you really want to follow? By his example it leads his followers to do such atrocities and we read all the time they do it to this day and the ‘peaceful’ ones riot/protest when the violent ones are struck back by their victims.

Take note the differences between the 12 Apostles and mohammed’s followers:dts: .

Zayd ibn Haritha, who was Muhammad’s ex-slave, was the third person to be converted to Muhammad’s religion. Although he was Muhammad’s companion for a long time, Zayd was revengeful, cruel, and without compassion. What a contrast between the companions of Muhammad and the 12 disciples of Jesus Christ. The followers of Jesus saw an example of one who walk in submissive love and healing power among men.

Umm Qirfa Fatima, daughter of Rabi’a, was a very old women when Zayd led an attack against her village. This old lady was capture and ordered to be killed. As cruel as it is to kill an old helpless woman, Muhammad’s disciple had lost all feelings of human decency and ordered Qays b. Al-Musahhar to kill her.

Like cruel animals sporting with prey, Muhammad’s warriors decided to rip Umm’s body in two. They were getting excited, soon they would hear her cries for mercy, screams, and the sounds of her bones breaking inside her stretched out body. They grabbed her legs and tied each leg to a separate rope. They did not want to kill her first and then desecrate her body. They needed the screams, the breaking bones, the tearing flesh, and the hot pulsating blood flowing from her body to have a climax of sadistic pleasure. After the ropes were tied firmly and securely to two strong camels, they whipped the camels, driving them to pull with their greatest force. At first there were just the cries for mercy, and then the screams of unbearable pain. After that, the bones started to break and joints between bones pulled apart. Finally, the flesh and blood vessels tore apart and her frail body ripped in two. Their diabolic sport had no sense of modesty when they exposed her body to their prying eyes. Finally, the sadistic pleasure was over, and they had to untied the ropes from the camels that were pulling the two pieces of her mangled and bloody corpse.

Qays b. Al-Musahhar had supervised the killing of Umm. Afterwards, he could not contain his bragging and boasting. So, Qays wrote a poem in honor of himself for killing Mas’ada. He believed there was no greater joy than killing for Muhammad and his religion.

 

[famdigy]

Although I still would like an answer to my OP as to WHY Muslims believe all prophets are sinless. They keep dancing around it.

The intellectual rationale behind this belief is summarized by Shaykh Al-Tusi in the following quote
“Infallibility is necessary for a prophet so that surety in him is attained, and as a result, the purpose of creation is fulfilled.”

in other words a prophet must be infallible so that mankind can trust the revelation he brings. Since God has sent his prophet’s to guide mankind, he must send a person who is neither careless nor forgetful, much less sinful. If not, He will contradict His own purpose in sending prophets, revelation and in essence, the purpose of creation itself.

If the prophets were capable of carelessness, forgetfullnes, or sin, people would never fully trust that what they say is from God. They would always entertain the possibility that the prophets have lied to them or made a mistake or misunderstood God’s intent.

This belief is based on another principal belief, Divine Justice (Adl).
God is free from injustice and does not wrong a soul.

If a prophet were to make a mistake in receiving or conveying revelation, this mistake would demonstrate either ignorance, weakness, or incompetence in God’s action because the prophet’s error could be the cause of people’s misguidance.

The verses of Quran that support this belief are too many to enumerate, here are a few.

“we did not send any prophet, except so that he may be obeyed by the will of Allah.” (Quran 4:64)

"(Satan said to God) Without a doubt, I shall misguide them (mankind) except those who are chosen from amongst them (Quran 38:82)

“Remember also our servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They were resourceful, and possessed vision.
We bestowed upon them a great blessing: awareness of the Hereafter.
They were chosen, for they were among the most righteous.” (Quran 38:45-47)

“And we granted him Isaac and Jacob, and we guided both of them. Similarly, we guided Noah before that, and from his descendants (we guided) David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron. We thus reward the righteous.
Also, Zachariah, John, Jesus, and Elias; all were righteous.
And Ismail, Elisha, Jonah, and Lot; each of these we distinguished over all the people.
From among their ancestors, their descendants, and their siblings, we chose many, and we guided them in a straight path.” Quran 6:84-87

“And whomever GOD guides, nothing can send him astray. Is GOD not Almighty, Avenger?” (Quran 39:37)

In summary, God wants us to Obey the prophets that he chose satan admits he has no power over the chosen
The prophet’s can not be led astray because God guided them.

 

[famdigy]

I have written this before and I have to write it again

fLIES, fLIES and more fLIES

 

[R_not]

fLIES, fLIES and more fLIES

Do you want me to buy you a fly swatter? yes, flies can be very ‘buggy’.

 

[Wintersdemise]

All the Prophets were born in orginal sin and sinned.

Mary and Jesus, who obviously surpass Prophethood are the only two without sin.

John the Baptist was born with original sin as well.

Unlike Muslims, Catholics do not believe all the Prophets were sinless. They were common human beings who were chosen to give messages.

 

[R_not]

I posted this on another thread but it seems to apply here since it seems mohammed had many problems over his killing sprees. It seems he was bothered in his later life by bad dreams, jinns, Satan over what he did.

we find Muhammad anxious and afraid. He lived in constant fear, because he had caused the death of so many innocent victims in war and had asked his followers to help him get rid anyone who he thought was his enemies.

Whoever kills another person may dream that the spirits of the murdered victim follow him. Muhammad felt the influences of evil. He looked at many things created by God with fear because they looked evil to him. Muhammad was fearful.

Muhammad was afraid of the night and what dwelled in it. He was afraid of sorcerers and women who tried to influence others by making knots and blowing on them. Muhammad felt the power of evil spirits as one who had become envious. His fear is often found in the Qur’an and climaxes in deep terror of Allah.

How different from Muhammad is our Lord Jesus who said “Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid” ( John 14:27). Muhammad had no personal peace. He was an a frighted man, torn in his heart, desperate and unhappy. In the depth of his soul he was fearful of the night and sorcerers. He was especially afraid of envy. From every side, he saw himself under attack. We notice this in the last Sura of the Qur’an, an-Nas 114:1-5.

This would make me reconsider islam’s definition of ‘innocent’ and applying it to others who are not muslims. Applying ‘innocent’ to only what mohammed considered fit in to that category certainly did’t do mohammed any good at all.

 

[inJESUS]

I should add that this narration is deemed a forgery because one of the narrators “Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj” is a known forger of hadith

deemed a forgery by who? the Shia? because one salafi site includes it as authentic.

Here is the link and quote:

– Similar things happened at the time of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), such as the hypocrite who was killed by ‘Umar without the permission of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), when the hypocrite did not agree with the ruling of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Then Qur’aan was revealed approving ‘Umar’s action. And there was the daughter of Marwaan who was killed by that man, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) called him the supporter of Allaah and His Messenger.

islamqa.com/en/ref/103739

 

[Jay53]

famdigy;4783669]The intellectual rationale behind this belief is summarized by Shaykh Al-Tusi in the following quote
“Infallibility is necessary for a prophet so that surety in him is attained, and as a result, the purpose of creation is fulfilled.”

in other words a prophet must be infallible so that mankind can trust the revelation he brings. Since God has sent his prophet’s to guide mankind, he must send a person who is neither careless nor forgetful, much less sinful. If not, He will contradict His own purpose in sending prophets, revelation and in essence, the purpose of creation itself.

If the prophets were capable of carelessness, forgetfullnes, or sin, people would never fully trust that what they say is from God. They would always entertain the possibility that the prophets have lied to them or made a mistake or misunderstood God’s intent.

This belief is based on another principal belief, Divine Justice (Adl).
God is free from injustice and does not wrong a soul.

If a prophet were to make a mistake in receiving or conveying revelation, this mistake would demonstrate either ignorance, weakness, or incompetence in God’s action because the prophet’s error could be the cause of people’s misguidance.

Thank you, famdigy! You are the first Muslim to actually answer this question for me!

I would agree that the revelations of the prophets would need to be infallible, but not necessarily the person himself. How does one reconcile then the documented sins of various prophets with this belief. Are the sins just considered “mistakes” then and dismissed as such? Or are all the actions of a said prophet deemed to be acceptable because of this belief. (i.e. Abraham had sex with a woman who was not his wife, therefore this is acceptable behavior for all that follow him.)

The idea is now that the prophet is now the “perfect” example of how to live one’s life? (In fact, I am just realizing now that I think I have heard various Muslim posters say they think Muhammad is the “perfect” person to emulate. And I have honestly been flabbergasted at this statement given the reality of what he has done.) Are the prophets (after Moses obviously) not expected to follow the Ten Commandments?

Although this then brings me to the question of why don’t Muslims emulate Jesus and the peaceful life that He led and the teachings that He gave us? Or is that because Muhammad came after him and therefore is the “latest” prophet who is to be emulated? (i.e. the people are to follow the prophets in chronological order of appearance (for lack of a better way to word that.))

Sorry if my questions seem silly, but I genuinely do not get this idea. I truly appreciate you taking the time to answer me!

Are there any verses in the Old Testament that also support this belief? (No offense, but the verses you gave me from the Quran don’t mean anything to me since I don’t believe in the Quran anyway. I would view them as being self-serving to Muhammad so that he could justify any of his behaviors/actions. Although I do appreciate all the work you did to post them. )

 

[Jay53]

All the Prophets were born in orginal sin and sinned.

Mary and Jesus, who obviously surpass Prophethood are the only two without sin.

John the Baptist was born with original sin as well.

Unlike Muslims, Catholics do not believe all the Prophets were sinless. They were common human beings who were chosen to give messages.

Thank you for this! I completely forgot original sin with regard to John the Baptist. I have never heard anything that he was sinless otherwise in his life. ???

 

[inJESUS]

If the prophets were capable of carelessness, forgetfullnes, or sin, people would never fully trust that what they say is from God. They would always entertain the possibility that the prophets have lied to them or made a mistake or misunderstood God’s intent.

 

[famdigy]

infallibility in teachings is understandable but the inability to sin is the problem. Are prophets beyond God’s judgment since they cannot sin?

 

[R_not]

inJESUS;4783820:

By infalability we do not mean they are incapable of sinning. Rather, they are at the highest level righteousness, and ever-present consciousness and love for God and certain knowledge about the consequences of commiting sins. It’s the strength of their character that makes them relatively infallible.

for example, it is within the power of any person to go naked on the streets. But would a person who was brought up with good moral values think of doing so? of course not, because it is far below their dignity to behave in this way. It’s not impossible for them to do so but they will not even imagine of doing so. Why? because they have been taught and brought up with the idea that such behavior will tarnish their honour and is beneath the dignity of a civilized human being.

Similarly the infallible have the ability to commit sin, but never ever imagine of committing a sin because their deep understanding of God and their direct relationship with Him leaves no room for displeasing Him by committing sins, if even for a second.

If they were entrusted through God’s command, then yes they would have to be infallible for the same reasons above.

Well then, according to your explanation mohammed did not fit even in your definition of a prophet. He committed so many sins against the 10 Commandments that he had to redefine sin. And that is changing the message of the previous prophets completely which says that he was not a prophet.

To excuse his murder, poor sexual behavior, stealing and lying - muslims have just glossed over these things and just say that mohammed can have and do anything, per allah.

Oh, mohammed sinned alright. And he knew he sinned because he was bothered in his later life by bad dreams, jinn and Satan.

mohammed

He was a very troubled man. Always anxious and afraid.

 

[famdigy]

How does one reconcile then the documented sins of various prophets with this belief. Are the sins just considered “mistakes” then and dismissed as such? Or are all the actions of a said prophet deemed to be acceptable because of this belief. (i.e. Abraham had sex with a woman who was not his wife, therefore this is acceptable behavior for all that follow him.)

you’re welcome Jay53, as InJesus mentioned earlier, we believe the OT and NT we have today has been corrupted from it’s original revelation. To clarify further, absolute infalability of prophets is a belief unique to twelver shia Muslims, sunnis commonly belief prophets are only infallible in revelation but commit mistakes in their personal lives.

In islamic tradition Hajar is Abraham’s wife so there’s no sin there. In the case of Adam his action of eating the fruit was not a sin, because the command to stay away from it was not a legislative command that carries the weight of sin and punishment rather, an advisory command meant to warn Adam of the consequences of ignoring it.

An example would be of a person who goes to the doctor and complains about a cough and the doctor advised him to take a certain type of medicine or cough syrop. If that person ignores the doctor’s advise, he is not commiting a crime but he will suffer the consequences, his cough will be prolonged and maybe his health will deteriorate.

In Adam’s story, he was not intended to stay in paradise forever, as God spoke to the Angels before Adam’s creation informing them that he will place on the earth a representative Quran 2:30.

The consequence of Adam ignoring the advisory command is the premature cancelation of his temporary stay in Paradise

Are the prophets (after Moses obviously) not expected to follow the Ten Commandments?

I don’t know enough to comment about the 10 commandments but every prophet carries on where the prophet before him left off. Every prophet plays an important role in the implementation of God’s guidance to mankind, some have bigger roles than others.

Although this then brings me to the question of why don’t Muslims emulate Jesus and the peaceful life that He led and the teachings that He gave us? Or is that because Muhammad came after him and therefore is the “latest” prophet who is to be emulated? (i.e. the people are to follow the prophets in chronological order of appearance (for lack of a better way to word that.))

that’s right, if there was a prophet after Muhammad (saws) we would be required to follow him.

 

[R_not]

that’s right, if there was a prophet after Muhammad (saws) we would be required to follow him.

And the criteria for this prophet in the islamic world would be what?

 

[Reuben_J]

you’re welcome Jay53, as InJesus mentioned earlier, we believe the OT and NT we have today has been corrupted from it’s original revelation. To clarify further, absolute infalability of prophets is a belief unique to twelver shia Muslims, sunnis commonly belief prophets are only infallible in revelation but commit mistakes in their personal lives.

I can only highlight the difference between Islam and Christianity. Christianity does not justify sin. Whether it is a sin, a mistake or small sin, they are all sins as long as they transgress God’s commandments and are abhorrent to Him. Islam’s gray area between a sin and a mistake makes sinning as very flexible. This is against God’s very nature where sin is always incompatible with Him.

A good example is where Moses pleaded for his people to have water at Meribbah. Even though God granted the request he nevertheless punished Moses for having not enough faith in Him. (The punishment was Moses did not get to see the promised land). We can easily justify Moses’ action here, after all he did it for the good of his people who were dying of thirst. But that’s not so with God - obedience to him is a priority, final and complete.

Again please note this has nothing to do with the forgiveness of God. God forgives and His mercy has no end but sin is a sin and one does not change its definition.

In islamic tradition Hajar is Abraham’s wife so there’s no sin there.

Christians view this with disdain and disbelief. How is that there are two different versions about Abraham’s life? Islam never had any book or story written prior to Mohammad. All that what’s written about Abraham that been carried on through the ages are what we have in the Torah and the OT today. How Islam gets a different tradition is understandable but it’s only a tradition and therefore cannot be held with certainty. You’d still have to refer back to the Torah or the OT of the Bible, which were written much earlier and carried on from generation to generation.

It is clear that Hajar was a slave, a personal maid of Sarah the wife of Abraham. Sarah thought that she would never have a child of her own as she was getting old and decided to give her slave to Abraham for the purpose of procreating a child. This got to do with Hebrew’s culture of inheritance – Sarah wanted the inheritance from her line albeit of a slave.

That’s why this not marriage and God did not recognized it as such when he gave His promise of blessing to the descendants of Isaac, Abraham’s legal son. We have to read in between the lines and what God’s did was certainly recognition of this fact. The older Ishmael should get the blessing but did not because he was never Abraham’s legal son.

In the case of Adam his action of eating the fruit was not a sin, because the command to stay away from it was not a legislative command that carries the weight of sin and punishment rather, an advisory command meant to warn Adam of the consequences of ignoring it.

An example would be of a person who goes to the doctor and complains about a cough and the doctor advised him to take a certain type of medicine or cough syrop. If that person ignores the doctor’s advise, he is not commiting a crime but he will suffer the consequences, his cough will be prolonged and maybe his health will deteriorate.

In Adam’s story, he was not intended to stay in paradise forever, as God spoke to the Angels before Adam’s creation informing them that he will place on the earth a representative Quran 2:30.

The consequence of Adam ignoring the advisory command is the premature cancelation of his temporary stay in Paradise

Adam eating the fruit is a sin of disobedience. How could be disobedient to God is not a sin? The fact that he paid for the consequence of the act he committed shows that it is a sin.

I don’t know enough to comment about the 10 commandments but every prophet carries on where the prophet before him left off. Every prophet plays an important role in the implementation of God’s guidance to mankind, some have bigger roles than others.

Here is a summary of the Ten Commandment. It is taken from
Exodus 20:2–17, Deuteronomy 5:6–21, Exodus 34:11–27. By no means that sins are confined to this but at least the Ten Commandment contains a rough guideline.

1. 
   *]I am the Lord your God You shall have no other gods before me You shall not make for yourself an idol .
   *]You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God
   *]Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
   *]Honor your father and mother
   *]You shall not kill
   *]You shall not commit adultery
   *]You shall not steal
   *]You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
   *]You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife
   *]You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor
   
   Maybe Muslims here like to point out how Mohammad fared in complying to these commandments.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I agree, although I didn’t know John the Baptist was considered sinless. ??? However, there are some posters here who have asserted that ALL prophets are sinless - I’m trying to figure out who believes this and why.

Thank you for your response.

Any prophet that lived sinned or was born with original sin. From a Catholic perspective all these Prophets and Saints that are in heaven are no longer capable of sin, for to God these are all alive in the Communion of Saints. Just a perspective.

I never heard the phrase that “All Prophets are sinless”? Maybe the content in which it was phrased maybe needed here?

 

[inJESUS]

ok so they are so devout that sinning is less likely to be committed, but it can be commited, that is the point, so if a prophet commited a sin, for one reason or the other, it’d be absurd to blame the Jews with corruption. Sinning does not mean the person is bad or that he is not devout to God, sinning is a human weakness that when done, must be repented and therefore a human incapable of sinning is no longer a human. Even you know, despite your efforts to be devout, that there is no day that passes without a sin, either material or mental, but it seems, from your other post, that Islam has a gray area between sin and mistake.

If they were entrusted through God’s command, then yes they would have to be infallible for the same reasons above.

who in Islam was entrusted to preserve the Quran?

 

[inJESUS]

In islamic tradition Hajar is Abraham’s wife so there’s no sin there.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

Here is a summary of the Ten Commandment. It is taken from
Exodus 20:2–17, Deuteronomy 5:6–21, Exodus 34:11–27. By no means that sins are confined to this but at least the Ten Commandment contains a rough guideline.

I am the Lord your God You shall have no other gods before me

1. 
   *]You shall not make for yourself an idol .
   *]You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God
   *]Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
   *]Honor your father and mother
   *]You shall not kill
   *]You shall not commit adultery
   *]You shall not steal
   *]You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
   *]You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife
   *]You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor
   
   Maybe Muslims here like to point out how Mohammad fared in complying to these commandments.

1. 
   Nice post, but don’t you think if you’re going to quote the Scriptures concerning the Ten Commandments that you should do so accurately and completely?
   
   20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
   1. 
      
      *]20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
      *]20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
      *]20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
      *]20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
      *]20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
      *]20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
      *]20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
      *]20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
      *]20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. *]20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s
      
      Note also that 2,4 and 5 all have blessings and promises attached to them.