W
Walking_Home
Guest
Yep – times change – as do modes of dress. At one time – a woman showing her ankles – would have been considered “troublesome” by some men.
- Status
Yep – times change – as do modes of dress. At one time – a woman showing her ankles – would have been considered “troublesome” by some men.
T
TrueLight
Guest
Oh gosh. This thread is from 2009.
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Cristiano
Guest
I already disagree with this statement. Evaluations of beauty may well be linked to desirability, perhaps to sexual desirability, thus men are quite sensitive to aesthetics. When I grew up I was a beach bomb and skimpy bikinis and topless attires were the norm, I considered them very pleasing to the eye and I accepted them for the wrong reasons, today when I go back they are still the norm and I still consider them very pleasing to the eye for the same reasons but this time I do not approve of them because I know better.
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Bookcat
Guest
It is also good to recall when discussing modesty that little Blessed Jacinta learned later from Our Lady of Fatima that-- *fashions *will much offend the Lord.
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Portrait
Guest
Dear Bookcat,
Cordial greetings and a very good day.
Indeed, and it deeply saddens me, dear friend, to see H.H.JPII called into service by some on these boards to support the wearing of that indecent garment, the bikini. That saintly man would never have approved of a bikini, be it at the beach or on the high street, since it is tantamount to wearing one’s underclothes in public. He surely would have seen that it would attract attention to the ‘sexual values of the body’ and would be likely to arouse concupiscence in the opposite sex.
Such a garment clearly transcends the boundaries of propriety and is therefore unbecoming in women who profess the religion of Christ. There is, I fear, a lowered public opinion, even among Catholics, which urgently needs to raised, for so many are seemingly following the prevalent decadent culture and its debased fashions.
God bless and thankyou for your (name removed by moderator)ut, dear friend.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
H
He_Man
Guest
I’m surprised we still have bikinis…
D
Debora123
Guest
They were different back then, but they were also the same amount of modest back then as the modern bathing suits are today, if you know what I mean. You have to view it proportionally to the cultural norm of the times.
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Bookcat
Guest
Huh? Actually no. Very much more immodest suits today
B
Bookcat
Guest
CCC “Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies.”
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Debora123
Guest
I don’t think you know what I mean.
Yes, the suits of today SHOW MORE SKIN than they did back in the 1960’s. But it isn’t the number of inches of skin being exposed that makes something immodest, it is about what is appropriate to the time and place.
Times have changed, cultural norms of dress have changed, and so you have to look at it proportionally.
For example, showing your ankles several decades ago was probably the same level of modesty/immodesty as perhaps showing the breasts TODAY.
Likewise, the bathing suits from the 1960’s were probably the same level of modesty/immodesty as the modern bathing suits are today. Because cultural norms of dress change, and modesty of dress is dependent on cultural norms of dress.
Sorry for repeating myself so much, but hopefully I got my point across.
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Havard
Guest
I don’t speak for Debora, but I think she meant “relative to standards of the time”.
Edit: Nvm, Deb responded herself.
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Debora123
Guest
Yes sir, thank you.I don’t speak for Debora, but I think she meant “relative to standards of the time”.
Edit: Nvm, Deb responded herself.
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johnnyjones
Guest
Many women want to show off their bodies, christian or not. It makes them feel desired. I’m sure there are a handful of women that “don’t know what their doing” but that’s speculative. . Bikinis are designed to reveal the female form , chest hanging out and all. In the 50s the bottom portion was much wider and not so tight cut around the genital area. Now, women (and men) are hardly wearing anything.
If your wearing clothes to get a look, and you know men want to look, you are tempting others. Women have known since the dawn of time what men want. Women wear suductive clothes to tempt, otherwise a prostitute wouldn’t care if she wore a giant smock .It is sinful no matter how you want to slice it but this culture has tossed all rational thought out the window.
If your wearing clothes to get a look, and you know men want to look, you are tempting others. Women have known since the dawn of time what men want. Women wear suductive clothes to tempt, otherwise a prostitute wouldn’t care if she wore a giant smock .It is sinful no matter how you want to slice it but this culture has tossed all rational thought out the window.
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Bookcat
Guest
Yes I understand what your saying. I simply disagree in some aspects but do not wish to get into a line by line discussion
And I would note that way the culture is at a given time per se –does not set the standard for Christians.
(not saying your saying it does -I just chose your post to make the point in – and yes I recognize there are various times and places and changes etc.)
Christians are to often be --counter cultural.
Such as when surrounded by a culture that is given to hedonism, relativism, rampant immodesty etc
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Havard
Guest
Personally, I haven’t thought a lot about where the line should be drawn here. I will say this though… A few years ago, I went tubing with some friends, which included the gal I was dating at the time. After we were on the river, she pulled off her coverup and revealed this one-piece that looked (IMO) trashier than most bikinis I had seen. It was straight up Jersey Shore meets the Kardashians, and even though she was a pretty gal with a great body, I felt really uncomfortable.
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fix
Guest
I must disagree. While standards change they must be measured against the objective moral norm. There are plenty of customs in this culture that are accepted by society and the law that are contrary to the Gospel.
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Walking_Home
Guest
My – how you change your tune “Portrait”-- on John Paul II-- to fit your agenda.
Your own description – of Pope John Paul II:
- Unauthoritative musings.
- a. — totally at variance with his predecessors
b. — out of sink with Scripture and Tradition
c. — having lost the instinct for modesty – owing to having lived in –
the aftermath of the cultural/sexual revolution.
d. — godless revolution – impacting hierarchy of the Church.
e. – JPII evidently appears – to have been influenced – to some
degree at least – by this moral revolution/prevailing
unchristian culture.
f. — the Pope being offbeam – and misguided. - a. JPII --was a very world affirming type – not willing to say
anything – that would alienate the youth.
b. he allowed his heart to rule his head. - a. — fallibile works, pastoral directives etc of the post conciliar era.
b. — cannot be squared with pre-Vatican II.
S
SparkleFly
Guest
Once again to address the whole “men can’t handle/control their lustful thoughts” idea…
I took anatomy and physiology classes–we had to watch and perform dissections, 1/3 of the textbook had completely naked people. Our instructor knew that we are adults and able to handle it in a mature and respectful manner. We did.
Also, I had a chest reduction (partially so I could pull off everyday clothes in a more modest way–some bikini wearers do make an attempt to hide what should be hidden.) Like many of the other patients, I wasn’t allowed to wear clothes in the OR (it’s an infection hazard since they aren’t sterile). I was laying there naked for 5 hours, and prior to the surgery my doctor had to take and send photos to insurance, I had to go for exams, scans, etc. None of these health professionals got all weird about it–they have the mentality of professionals and can treat patients without thinking about lustful things. Think of all the male OB/GYNs out there.
Other careers, embalmers, massage therapists, other healthcare professionals, people that study art, crime scene investigators, scientists, etc. must not only see naked people, but touch them and study them. They all learn to control their thoughts and be professional instead of let the childish “eww, a naked person” ideology take over. People do have control. Going by the thought that people can’t control themselves, we’d have to hide all the junk food in the world, make bakers cover up their decadent cakes because oh no, we might be tempted to eat them and hurt our arteries. Yeah, it’s difficult and we humans have an instinct urge to consume as many carbs as we can so we have energy for the winter. This still exists because our bodies can’t adapt as quickly as we can create fridges and supermarkets. My parents taught me to avoid those carb junk food temptations and opt for healthier foods, yet eat junk in moderation (like birthday cake at parties.) As a result, I’m much stronger in getting a grip on food temptations.
In the bible, people did wear clothes that resemble bikinis (or even less than what today’s bikinis cover)–Adam and Eve wore leaves. Ancient Egyptians wore thin strips of cloth while playing int he Olympics. Some tribes in Africa go completely naked because that is their culture. For us in America, as long as the garnet covers you so your chest and bum have no cleavage hanging out, and for the guys, everything “down there” is covered, and it is in an appropriate context (like the pool, not the office or supermarket LOL) I see no problem with it.
I took anatomy and physiology classes–we had to watch and perform dissections, 1/3 of the textbook had completely naked people. Our instructor knew that we are adults and able to handle it in a mature and respectful manner. We did.
Also, I had a chest reduction (partially so I could pull off everyday clothes in a more modest way–some bikini wearers do make an attempt to hide what should be hidden.) Like many of the other patients, I wasn’t allowed to wear clothes in the OR (it’s an infection hazard since they aren’t sterile). I was laying there naked for 5 hours, and prior to the surgery my doctor had to take and send photos to insurance, I had to go for exams, scans, etc. None of these health professionals got all weird about it–they have the mentality of professionals and can treat patients without thinking about lustful things. Think of all the male OB/GYNs out there.
Other careers, embalmers, massage therapists, other healthcare professionals, people that study art, crime scene investigators, scientists, etc. must not only see naked people, but touch them and study them. They all learn to control their thoughts and be professional instead of let the childish “eww, a naked person” ideology take over. People do have control. Going by the thought that people can’t control themselves, we’d have to hide all the junk food in the world, make bakers cover up their decadent cakes because oh no, we might be tempted to eat them and hurt our arteries. Yeah, it’s difficult and we humans have an instinct urge to consume as many carbs as we can so we have energy for the winter. This still exists because our bodies can’t adapt as quickly as we can create fridges and supermarkets. My parents taught me to avoid those carb junk food temptations and opt for healthier foods, yet eat junk in moderation (like birthday cake at parties.) As a result, I’m much stronger in getting a grip on food temptations.
In the bible, people did wear clothes that resemble bikinis (or even less than what today’s bikinis cover)–Adam and Eve wore leaves. Ancient Egyptians wore thin strips of cloth while playing int he Olympics. Some tribes in Africa go completely naked because that is their culture. For us in America, as long as the garnet covers you so your chest and bum have no cleavage hanging out, and for the guys, everything “down there” is covered, and it is in an appropriate context (like the pool, not the office or supermarket LOL) I see no problem with it.
D
Debora123
Guest
I agree that Christians shouldn’t just go by whatever the culture says on anything/everything.Yes I understand what your saying. I simply disagree in some aspects but do not wish to get into a line by line discussion
And I would note that way the culture is at a given time per se –does not set the standard for Christians.
Christians are to often be --counter cultural.
Such as when surrounded by a culture that is given to hedonism, relativism etc
But when it comes specifically to modesty, however, cultural norms DO play a huge role. And this is evident by simply looking at clothes worn throughout history or looking at different cultures from around the world, and what is normal and modest for them to wear. And this is also the reason why the Church doesn’t have any form of set standard of dress that would be deemed “modest” for all Christians around the world throughout all of time.
I suppose it is time we agree to disagree, as I do not wish to get into a line by line discussion either.
D
Debora123
Guest
LOL!
Yes, certain one pieces can look a bit freaky, (Borat comes to mind, if you know what I mean.
) but then again, they are not exactly the normal, average type of bathing suit you see. I’ve seen several of those on the shelves at stores, but very very few worn out in public.- Status