Are bikinis always sinful?

[Portrait]

Yes I understand what your saying. I simply disagree in some aspects but do not wish to get into a line by line discussion

And I would note that way the culture is at a given time per se –does not set the standard for Christians.

Christians are to often be --counter cultural.

Such as when surrounded by a culture that is given to hedonism, relativism etc

Dear Bookcat,

Cordial greetings and a hearty hear, hear to your remarks above.

As Catholics we are not to conform to the debased standards of this world (Rom. 12: 2) and we should certainly not set our watch by the town clock as regards our choice of clothing. The prevailing culture does not set the standard for those who profess the religion of Christ. Modesty must always be our first consideration and we should shun all indecent garments that breach good taste.

As Catholics we are to be the moral disinfectant of the world, providing a vibrant Christian counter-culture and daring to be different from those with whom we live and move and have our being.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[Bookcat]

I agree that Christians shouldn’t just go by whatever the culture says on anything/everything.

But when it comes specifically to modesty, however, cultural norms DO play a huge role.

Yes of course such do play a role.

And there is much in the current culture that is very immodest and ought not be embraced by Christians.

 

[Walking_Home]

It is also good to recall when discussing modesty that little Blessed Jacinta learned later from Our Lady of Fatima that-- *fashions *will much offend the Lord.

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Find that at the Vatican site.

 

[Debora123]

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My – how you change your tune “Portrait”-- on John Paul II-- to fit your agenda.

Your own description – of Pope John Paul II:

1. Unauthoritative musings.
2. a. — totally at variance with his predecessors
   b. — out of sink with Scripture and Tradition
   c. — having lost the instinct for modesty – owing to having lived in –
   the aftermath of the cultural/sexual revolution.
   d. — godless revolution – impacting hierarchy of the Church.
   e. – JPII evidently appears – to have been influenced – to some
   degree at least – by this moral revolution/prevailing
   unchristian culture.
   f. — the Pope being offbeam – and misguided.
3. a. JPII --was a very world affirming type – not willing to say
   anything – that would alienate the youth.
   b. he allowed his heart to rule his head.
4. a. — fallibile works, pastoral directives etc of the post conciliar era.
   b. — cannot be squared with pre-Vatican II.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8010927#post8010927

The poster you are speaking to is a very Pre Vatican II traditionalist. There’s nothing particularly wrong with that, if that’s how he wants to live his life. All we can do is disagree with his views, which I certainly do.

 

[Debora123]

Yes of course such do play a role.

And there is much in the current culture that is very immodest and ought not be embraced by Christians.

I suppose you and I have different standards of modesty, Bookcat.

Yes, I DO think there are certain clothes out there that are immodest, but those clothes are considered immodest by the cultural norms as well, not because I took it upon myself to decide they were. Thong bikinis are one good example of that, IMO.

 

[Bookcat]

---

Find that at the Vatican site.

Many things in the Church are not at the Vatican site One will not find the all the words of Our Lady to St. Bernadette of Lourdes there either.

It came after the major appearances of Our Lady at Fatima. The Vatican site has to do with the Secret of Fatima --not a documentation of all that went on a Fatima or all the the seers experienced…

Here on EWTN: ewtn.com/library/MARY/TSFATIMA.HTM

 

[johnnyjones]

Woman know what they are doing. What’s with this bury your heads in the sand mentality. If a woman knows what she is doing by wearing the bikini she has sinned. If the man lusts, he has sinned. It’s not a matter of “men can’t control themselves” Men are controling themselves all the time. It is the woman who gives the “green light” to the man.

Not much business for a corner prostitute wearing a gown.

 

[Walking_Home]

Walking_Home:

My – how you change your tune “Portrait”-- on John Paul II-- to fit your agenda.

Your own description – of Pope John Paul II:

1. Unauthoritative musings.
2. a. — totally at variance with his predecessors
   b. — out of sink with Scripture and Tradition
   c. — having lost the instinct for modesty – owing to having lived in –
   the aftermath of the cultural/sexual revolution.
   d. — godless revolution – impacting hierarchy of the Church.
   e. – JPII evidently appears – to have been influenced – to some
   degree at least – by this moral revolution/prevailing
   unchristian culture.
   f. — the Pope being offbeam – and misguided.
3. a. JPII --was a very world affirming type – not willing to say
   anything – that would alienate the youth.
   b. he allowed his heart to rule his head.
4. a. — fallibile works, pastoral directives etc of the post conciliar era.
   b. — cannot be squared with pre-Vatican II.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthrea…27#post8010927

The poster you are speaking to is a very Pre Vatican II traditionalist. There’s nothing particularly wrong with that, if that’s how he wants to live his life.** All we can do is disagree with his views, which I certainly do. **

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Yep – an extremist “Traditionalist” - gone off the edge.

 

[Debora123]

Woman know what they are doing. What’s with this bury your heads in the sand mentality. If a woman knows what she is doing by wearing the bikini she has sinned. If the man lusts, he has sinned. It’s not a matter of “men can’t control themselves” Men are controling themselves all the time. It is the woman who gives the “green light” to the man.

Not much business for a corner prostitute wearing a gown.

 

[Walking_Home]

Many things in the Church are not at the Vatican site One will not find the all the words of Our Lady to St. Bernadette of Lourdes there either.

It came after the major appearances of Our Lady at Fatima. The Vatican site has to do with the Secret of Fatima --not a documentation of all that went on a Fatima or all the the seers experienced…

Here on EWTN: ewtn.com/library/MARY/TSFATIMA.HTM

---

From the link you posted – it looks like those supposed words are attributed to Jacinta – and not to our Lady Herself.

 

[itullian]

bikinis do encourage men to look. if that’s sinful, i don’t know. they could be worn for tanning, i guess.

i prefer the classy one piece suits on women.

flattering and tasteful.

i find that look very attractive.

 

[johnnyjones]

Pretty girls are not sexy in bikinis and they have no idea why they are wearing them. How could a man want to lust for a nice figured girl in a bikini?

 

[Bookcat]

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From the link you posted – it looks like those supposed words are attributed to Jacinta – and not to our Lady Herself.

As I recall I have seen them noted as being her noting what was told to her by Our Lady later. But one would have to look into it further.

 

[prodigalson2011]

I stand on the more conservative side of this argument. Why does a woman’s swimsuit need to be so revealing? Why is it necessary that there be no leg coverage, etc? I wouldn’t go so far as to pronounce every woman who wears a bikini as committing a sin by doing so, but they are by design and origin intended to titillate. Anyone who thinks the inventor of the bikini did not have arousal in mind is fooling themselves, in my opinion.

I would also note that this perception is not exclusive to “religious nuts.” A completely secular study in the mid-80’s made by the Hollywood Social Studies organization polled a scientific sampling of U.S. psychiatrists about the sexual risks of modern swimwear, and the replies bear out what a lot of us have been saying here:

In 1984-85, questions regarding swim wear were sent by the Hollywood Social Studies organization to a scientific sampling of U.S. psychiatrists to ascertain whether there are risks in sexual display of the fashionable swimsuits of today. The results were verified by a prominent retired psychiatrist. Here are some of their conclusions:

1. Of the psychiatrists who replied, 87 percent said a parent would be realistic to be aware that a swimsuit with the high cut legs might make a daughter a target of sexual advances or a sex crime. The same percentage said this risk is true for female wearers in Canada.

1. A parent would be naive, said 84 percent, to suppose a daughter could wear a string bikini and not appear to males to invite sexual attention. The same is true of females who wear short skirts or bikinis, said 81 percent in an earlier survey.

1. Husbands and fathers have some responsibility for sensible guidance to enable females to avoid attire that might be dangerously provocative to some males, said 91 percent.

1. Most psychiatrists said some mothers who clothe their little girls in unnecessarily revealing swimsuits may be expressing their own exhibitionism indirectly. If that fact is brought to their attention, however, 96 percent said one likely response would be self-righteous indignation, accusing anyone of vile motives who would think such a thing.

Donna Bali, Hollywood Social Studies

Pulpit Helps - December 1986 p. 322

Guardian of Truth XXXI: 2, p. 55
January 15, 1987

I don’t mean to cast judgment, but it seems to me that the line of demarcation between theory and reality in this case needs to be acknowledged. Between Sports Illustrated’s annual publications and the abundance of “bikini posters” in dorms and teen boys’ rooms across America, the general and, one could fairly assume, intended effect of the bikini on men is easily observable.

 

[LucyLight]

Dear Bookcat,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

Indeed, and it deeply saddens me, dear friend, to see H.H.JPII called into service by some on these boards to support the wearing of that indecent garment, the bikini. That saintly man would never have approved of a bikini, be it at the beach or on the high street, since it is tantamount to wearing one’s underclothes in public. He surely would have seen that it would attract attention to the ‘sexual values of the body’ and would be likely to arouse concupiscence in the opposite sex.

Such a garment clearly transcends the boundaries of propriety and is therefore unbecoming in women who profess the religion of Christ. There is, I fear, a lowered public opinion, even among Catholics, which urgently needs to raised, for so many are seemingly following the prevalent decadent culture and its debased fashions.

God bless and thankyou for your (name removed by moderator)ut, dear friend.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

**
That is not what was said**. A poster was asking if there was such a thing as situational modesty. For example should you be wearing a swimsuit if you wouldn’t be willing to wear it to the grocery store. My point was that there was such a thing as situational modesty as explained by JPII.** I did not say whether or not JPII supports bikinis. **

 

[Debora123]

Pretty girls are not sexy in bikinis and they have no idea why they are wearing them. How could a man want to lust for a nice figured girl in a bikini?

Perhaps they are wearing them to get in the water? Or so they don’t get ugly tan lines when they are out by the pool all day?

Novel idea, I know.

 

[LucyLight]

I already disagree with this statement. Evaluations of beauty may well be linked to desirability, perhaps to sexual desirability, thus men are quite sensitive to aesthetics. When I grew up I was a beach bomb and skimpy bikinis and topless attires were the norm, I considered them very pleasing to the eye and I accepted them for the wrong reasons, today when I go back they are still the norm and I still consider them very pleasing to the eye for the same reasons but this time I do not approve of them because I know better.

We were talking about swimsuits. Generally women care more about the appearance of clothing, the furniture in their houses etc… On the other hand women seem to care less about the aesthetics of their partners. Men are more visual in that regard. But getting back on topic you spoke of swimsuits being functional and I was stating that women choose their swimsuits on how they look as well. A woman may choose a two piece swimsuit because she thinks its prettier than a one piece and attractive on her (nothing wrong with looking attractive). Not because she has a diabolical plot to seduce men.

 

[johnnyjones]

Perhaps they are wearing them to get in the water? Or so they don’t get ugly tan lines when they are out by the pool all day?

Novel idea, I know.

Yes, there is no other type of bathing apparel available and women don’t buy bikinis for how they look in them. “Sports Illustrated” puts a bikini clad woman on the cover not for sales but because they are concerned about the dangers of tan lines. Very novel.

 

[Bookcat]

A woman may choose a two piece swimsuit because she thinks its prettier than a one piece and attractive on her (nothing wrong with looking attractive). Not because she has a diabolical plot to seduce men.

In Love and Responsibility Bl. Pope John Paul wrote that yes women can often not understand the effects on men. They can think they are just looking attractive and not seek to cause lust etc. He notes that they need to become aware of such.

He does a splendid work there in explaining out the sexual values of the body can end up have disproportional emphasis put on them …than should be. I theological work and not easy for all to read -but it is a great work. One does not want the sexual values of the body to displace the person etc

 

[He_Man]

Not a fan of bikinis on me or my wife, but that is an aside.

Certainly everything needs to be viewed in context of the time period (certain indisputable facts like murder notwithstanding). However, I simply wouldn’t use a standard of acceptability for a current culture like ours that treats pornography, strip clubs, and promotes shows like “The Real Housewives of…” as normal and perfectly fine.

It’s garbage, and using it as a barometer of decency is not a good idea. It’s like saying a bowl of mud doesn’t tast that bad, relative to swallowing a glass of manure.