Are capitalistic and conservative ideals sinful?

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Hi, fish90,

You were doing fine … until …

This seems to imply a multi-flavor (economic system) dispensor, where you can get a splash of this and grugle or two of that until somehow the right ‘mix’ is achieved. In theory, it sounds great … it really is a variation of Plato’s "Republic’ and Moore’s “Utopia” - the guy in charge (philosopher-king or what have you) knows best! As I see it, these great and grand ideas have fired the imagination for centuries - but, the snag comes in when someone really tries to apply them. Human beings are a complicated group…😃 and I think the guy who probably captured it best was Adam Smith in “Wealth of Nations” when it spoke of the ‘invisible hand’ of the market. Taken as a whole it works… even though it has its setbacks and difficulties (boom and bust cycles, too!)

Truning things over to the individual States has some advantages - Lord knows what happens to intelligence, integrity and initiate when people are elected to Federal office! :rolleyes:

God bless
I hope you did not take that quote to mean that I support extreme socialism. I should have said that since I do not believe that charity can efficiently and completely help those in need, I could except minimal socialism which involves mandatory taxes in order to provide for human dignity where charity fails.

Not to get political, our economy is currently a mixed economy. However, socialism was always wished to be minimal. I am for the private sector, yet I also believe the government should have the role of referee.

I hope I make sense.👍

FREE MARKETS NOT GOVERNMENT CRAZINESS!!! 😃

God Bless
 
Hi, Fish90,

It makes perfect sense to me… 👍
I hope you did not take that quote to mean that I support extreme socialism. I should have said that since I do not believe that charity can efficiently and completely help those in need, I could except minimal socialism which involves mandatory taxes in order to provide for human dignity where charity fails.

Not to get political, our economy is currently a mixed economy. However, socialism was always wished to be minimal. I am for the private sector, yet I also believe the government should have the role of referee.

I hope I make sense.👍

FREE MARKETS NOT GOVERNMENT CRAZINESS!!! 😃

God bless

God Bless
 
These are the areas where our Capitalistic system needs change
— Laws should not be put into place so rapidly and recklessly
— Criminal system needs revamping
— Freedom of information is made to work against the People (per credit report and criminal reports prevent people from getting jobs)
I’m having trouble seeing how those three things relate to capitalism. :confused:

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1. Well, can we dismiss “collective organization of production” from discussion since nobody seems to know what it means? If I were to guess, it is much closer to socialism and communism than capitalism.

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  1. It means not paying your workers a living wage is a sin.
  2. If Christ returned today, capitalists would have him assassinated, just like they did before.
  3. The radical message Jesus brought to the Jews and for which they had him put to death is that unmitigated greed was inconsistent with loving God. People have intrinsic value, no one is ‘better’ than anyone else or more deserving. The world’s resources were put on the earth for the world… not for a few opportunistic ungodly to exploit for personal profit.
That’s why it’s ‘harder for the the rich to get into heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle’.

Take Bectel. It’s a corporation that used U.S. influence with the IMF to force Bolivians to pay up to 50% of their $2 a day wages for the right to collect rain that fell out of the sky. The response was a people’s revolution in which the country’s militia shot the poor in the street for daring to demand their right to collect rainwater for drinking because it would interfere with Bechtel’s profits.

Do you really think people who just call themselves Christians while participating in collecting dividends off Bechtel stock using these business practices are going to delight Jesus and find themselves in Heaven?

I don’t.

garivers.org/gawater/article5.html
 
  1. It means not paying your workers a living wage is a sin.
  2. If Christ returned today, capitalists would have him assassinated, just like they did before.
  3. The radical message Jesus brought to the Jews and for which they had him put to death is that unmitigated greed was inconsistent with loving God. People have intrinsic value, no one is ‘better’ than anyone else or more deserving. The world’s resources were put on the earth for the world… not for a few opportunistic ungodly to exploit for personal profit.
That’s why it’s ‘harder for the the rich to get into heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle’.

Take Bectel. It’s a corporation that used U.S. influence with the IMF to force Bolivians to pay up to 50% of their $2 a day wages for the right to collect rain that fell out of the sky. The response was a people’s revolution in which the country’s militia shot the poor in the street for daring to demand their right to collect rainwater for drinking because it would interfere with Bechtel’s profits.

Do you really think people who just call themselves Christians while participating in collecting dividends off Bechtel stock using these business practices are going to delight Jesus and find themselves in Heaven?

I don’t.

garivers.org/gawater/article5.html
  1. How much is a living wage in the US? Can you give us an exact amount? Dollars and cents?
  2. Well, since Christ isn’t around, perhaps we can look at how capitalists view Christians. They are just customers. Good customers. No more. And they sure don’t want to assasinate their customers.
  3. What is the radical message Jesus brought to the Jews?
 
How is cutting costs (laying people off, cutting benefits, etc.) not against the “ends do not justify the means” belief of the Church?

For example, if the government were to completely end Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid to get rid of all the liabilities for the future, would this be against Catholic Teaching or would this be the double effect principle or neither or both?

The ends would be good but the means would not be. Ends do not justify the means = immoral, right?
 
How is cutting costs (laying people off, cutting benefits, etc.) not against the “ends do not justify the means” belief of the Church?

For example, if the government were to completely end Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid to get rid of all the liabilities for the future, would this be against Catholic Teaching or would this be the double effect principle or neither or both?

The ends would be good but the means would not be. Ends do not justify the means = immoral, right?
  1. Perhaps lay offfs are against Church beliefs. If so, the Church doesn’t know much about economics. If sales fall, and costs become greater than revenue, a company that does not lay off workers will soon fail and all the workers will be out of work.
  2. I’m not going to answer for the Church regarding social programs.
  3. Saying the ends don’t justify the means doesn’t help us in managing companies. One must first determine what is possible for the firm to do. If a firm can’t maintain employment or benefits, it is limited in its options. It doesn’t matter what the Church says. Church teachings don’t make cash flow or sales. One can hardly accuse a firm of being immoral if it lacks the capacity to act in the recommended moral manner.
 
  1. How much is a living wage in the US? Can you give us an exact amount? Dollars and cents?
  2. Well, since Christ isn’t around, perhaps we can look at how capitalists view Christians. They are just customers. Good customers. No more. And they sure don’t want to assasinate their customers.
  3. What is the radical message Jesus brought to the Jews?
It would differ by area, but an example would be Walmart, let’s say in California, which pays it’s full time workers such a low wage that those workers remain eligible for federal and state benefits. Would you agree that a 40 hour work week which leaves the worker below federal poverty line is not a living wage?

I may wish to start a business that cannot be profitable unless I pay my workers a dollar a day. In this country, if that’s the best I can do, I don’t have a right to start that business. I should probably just take a job. Any business which cannot pay it’s workers a living wage has no economic legitimacy to exist.

I’m sure capitalists have few problems with most American self-processed Christians since they aren’t really any kind of Christian. 😛 Once you get out of the U.S. though, there are a lot of varying viewpoints.

Worship God, not money. Love God, love your neighbor as yourself. Since loving your neighbor as yourself might cut into your bottom line, that part is often disregarded by American Christians.
 
How is cutting costs (laying people off, cutting benefits, etc.) not against the “ends do not justify the means” belief of the Church?

For example, if the government were to completely end Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid to get rid of all the liabilities for the future, would this be against Catholic Teaching or would this be the double effect principle or neither or both?

The ends would be good but the means would not be. Ends do not justify the means = immoral, right?
I think your conclusion would be apt only if cutting costs and laying people off were immoral. They may be immoral under certain circumstances (which I would argue are rare), but they’re not inherently immoral.
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I think your conclusion would be apt only if cutting costs and laying people off were immoral. They may be immoral under certain circumstances (which I would argue are rare), but they’re not inherently immoral.
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The Question is, why would you try to defend the idea that they are rare?
 
It would differ by area, but an example would be Walmart, let’s say in California, which pays it’s full time workers such a low wage that those workers remain eligible for federal and state benefits. Would you agree that a 40 hour work week which leaves the worker below federal poverty line is not a living wage?

I may wish to start a business that cannot be profitable unless I pay my workers a dollar a day. In this country, if that’s the best I can do, I don’t have a right to start that business. I should probably just take a job. Any business which cannot pay it’s workers a living wage has no economic legitimacy to exist.

I’m sure capitalists have few problems with most American self-processed Christians since they aren’t really any kind of Christian. 😛 Once you get out of the U.S. though, there are a lot of varying viewpoints.

Worship God, not money. Love God, love your neighbor as yourself. Since loving your neighbor as yourself might cut into your bottom line, that part is often disregarded by American Christians.
  1. OK. What is the living wage in California in dollars and cents?
  2. I don’t agree to anything based on federal poverty levels. If that is your position, then the whole moral case is dependent on Congress and where it chooses to put spending cut off levels.
  3. Why on earth would anyone work for you for $1/day? If things were so desperate that people really wanted $1/day, and you had the means to open a business and pay those people $1 and no more, are you justified in sitting on your hands? Should you turn them away because you are too moral to do your part? Is it better to sit back and watch them starve? Is that what you call a Christian?
  4. Well, there probably are different views around the world, and many self-professed Christians may be frauds. So what?
  5. Economies and firms don’t run on bumper sticker theology. “Love your neighbor as yourself,” doesn’t do anythig to make payroll every two weeks, doesn’t increase sales, doesn’t pay taxes, and doesn’t compete with the Chinese. And those who think it does don’t have a clue what it takes to run a business. Their morality coupled with their ignorance is very dangerous.
 
Hi, WonerfulLife,

Let me comment on your observations.
  1. It means not paying your workers a living wage is a sin.
  2. If Christ returned today, capitalists would have him assassinated, just like they did before.
  3. The radical message Jesus brought to the Jews and for which they had him put to death is that unmitigated greed was inconsistent with loving God. People have intrinsic value, no one is ‘better’ than anyone else or more deserving. The world’s resources were put on the earth for the world… not for a few opportunistic ungodly to exploit for personal profit.
That’s why it’s ‘harder for the the rich to get into heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle’.

Take Bectel. It’s a corporation that used U.S. influence with the IMF to force Bolivians to pay up to 50% of their $2 a day wages for the right to collect rain that fell out of the sky. The response was a people’s revolution in which the country’s militia shot the poor in the street for daring to demand their right to collect rainwater for drinking because it would interfere with Bechtel’s profits.

Do you really think people who just call themselves Christians while participating in collecting dividends off Bechtel stock using these business practices are going to delight Jesus and find themselves in Heaven?

I don’t.

garivers.org/gawater/article5.html
I did some searching for this “collective organization of production” and really did not find anything that coordinated with this thread. I did not see anything linking it to a “Living Wage”. Here is a link you may find helpful: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_wage and, maybe you can pass on a link to this “collective…production” term. Thanks in advance.

Your second point can not be substantiated under any conditions. If Christ were to return today, He would come as King to judge the world and would not subject to death again - this is part of our Catholic Faith. But, assuming you were just given to a flight of analogy… what makes you think that the proponents of any other economic system would be please - or displease - with the teachings of Christ. There are many statements where actual buy and selling examples are part of Christ’s teaching. At the time of Christ - there was probably no established form of capitalism. My guess is that the economy was primarily agricultural and fishing with a lot of barter going on. Rome, however, demanded gold and other valuables as money for tax payments (the IRS is really no different :eek:)

As I understand it, the radical message of Christ was that He fulfilled the Law and the Prophets, He has established His Chruch upon Peter and that He would return to see how well we have loved God with our whole heart and our neighbor as ourself.

I am really not familiar with “Bectel”. Did you mean Bechtel? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechtel You may be interested in knowing that Bechtel is not publicly traded - so, I am not sure what it is you may mean by collecting dividends.

Additionally, I would appreciate a source or reference for your comment on Bolivians not being allowed to collect rainwater. The link you provided involved the US State of Georgia and how this state is addressing water at a time of shortage. And this leads me to my question to you.

Take any resource you want (and, I guess you are interested in water). The western states of the US have quite a track record on arguing about water rights (the Hoover Dam was almost not build until it was decided (in very general terms) by the negotiating efforts of Herbert Hoover (before he became President) on how the water would be divided. Prior to that - the states were basically content to let the Colorado River flood and destroy the land as it would (electricity was just an afterthought). While others may want to follow the example set by these western states - maybe there are other models available. The idea of a return to the era of the 19th Century Robber Barons is always a possibility - but, in realtiy, the idea of people dying of dehydration and disease because they can not collect sufficient pure water to drink does seem far fetched.

In the last analysis, I am not sure Christ will be reviewing one’s stock portofolio to see how ‘politically correct’, ‘green’, ‘holy’ or what have you a company is that you have invested in. How do you handle mutual funds where some ‘saints’ and ‘sinners’ of companies may be combined? At least as far as I am aware, it is one’s belief in Christ’s Word and our cooperation with His Grace as we live our lives to love, honor and serve Him through our fellow man that will be evaluated.

God bless
 
  1. Economies and firms don’t run on bumper sticker theology. “Love your neighbor as yourself,” doesn’t do anythig to make payroll every two weeks, doesn’t increase sales, doesn’t pay taxes, and doesn’t compete with the Chinese. And those who think it does don’t have a clue what it takes to run a business. Their morality coupled with their ignorance is very dangerous.
So business first right?
 
I’m having trouble seeing how those three things relate to capitalism. :confused:

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You’re right, I dont belong on this thread, I dont care about money. Its your problem.
I’ll fight for the people, you fight for the money…
 
Tom, when you look those passages on social justice up in your CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church), it is defined there as being a sin to underpay your workers. I’m kind of busy with dinner right now.

If you don’t own a CCC I’ll type the related passages in after dinner.

Underpaying a worker is the same thing as a call to a living wage. Just because the CCC refers to it as underpaying doesn’t mean it’s not referring to living wage.

God bless you, too. I’m trying to explain a point, not criticize you.
 
Willie, love thy neighbor as thyself is an extremely radical request, then and now. However, that is what Jesus asked of us.

We are all sinners and we obviously can’t live up to that all the time, but we could probably all make better efforts and I include myself. I think the call is to society as well as to the individual, certainly the Church itself feels called or it wouldn’t bother with any charities.

St. Lawrence said the poor ARE the treasure of the Church. Possibly he was on to something there.
 
So business first right?
Yes. Absolutely. You can’t run a business on bumper sticker theology. Applied to economics and real world management, that is feel good nonsense for the ignorant. I suggest they learn something about business and economics before telling anyone how to run ther businesses.
 
Tom, when you look those passages on social justice up in your CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church), it is defined there as being a sin to underpay your workers. I’m kind of busy with dinner right now.

If you don’t own a CCC I’ll type the related passages in after dinner.

Underpaying a worker is the same thing as a call to a living wage. Just because the CCC refers to it as underpaying doesn’t mean it’s not referring to living wage.

God bless you, too. I’m trying to explain a point, not criticize you.
In dollars and cents, what is the living wage in the US today?
 
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