Just as an aside, the phrase “subordinat[ing] the basic rights of individuals and of groups to the collective organization of production” could apply as well to socialist and communist economies. The source of the quote in the CCC is Gaudium et Spes, where it appears that the Holy Father was concerned about both private ordering and government compulsion:
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Well, apparenbtly neither you nor the Church know how much a living wage is in dollars and cents. This stuff tells us nothing about managing a business or economy. Much of it has no relation to the real world, and it shows little knwledge of economics.
Suppose a firm increases wages from X to 2X. At level 2X a more qualified set of workers seek employment at the firm. Smarter, more educated, more productive, more ambitious. The firm will hire these people. But it will hire fewer, since they are better. Now, the people who used to work for X are out on the street.
You observe the following item I wrote makes no sense:
Where has capitalism existed without enforceable property rights and enforceable contracting rights?
The Church is clear, but its ideas only have a chance to work in a booming economy at the top of the business cycle. In practical terms, this stuff tells us nothing. Who actually writes these things? It’s all very nice, but it doesn’t work.
I, too, had the responsibility of meeting a payroll every 2-weeks, and making sure the Fedeal and State payroll taxes were paid - and, paid on time, mind you! While I did not have to worry about foreign competition - producing a product (whatever it is you want) on a daily basis is a challenge - and, there is not a lot of support from government. This is not asking for sympathy - but, an invitation for you to come to the table with an open mind.
Capitalism without an ethical foundation leads to a rich class while the poor get poorer. The wealth of the nation should not be determined by how good the rich do but also how the less fortunate do.
. I just want to have that in my arsenal. 
Nothing I have described mandates any particulat distribution of wealth.Capitalism without an ethical foundation leads to a rich class while the poor get poorer. The wealth of the nation should not be determined by how good the rich do but also how the less fortunate do.
I consider the U.S. wealthy because there is an abundant middle class and the poor are treated with respect and dignity. The capitalism you describe respectfully appears to be from the middle ages. There is the rich and then the poor.
Could someone find the reason why cutting costs (lay offs, cut pay, cut benefits, etc) is not immoral? I trust your belief, if not the Church would be a little too crazy for me
God Bless
To say, “…it doesn’t work…” what do you mean? Honest. Look at Enron (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron) as an example of a company that did things their own way - breaking numerous laws, impoverishing many and showed contempt for all. They did not “make it” either - and failed morally, econmically and legally.
Well, what basis do you have for that speculation? Why would that happen? Where are the examples?
I think cutting costs is, in itself, neither moral nor immoral. By the same token, giving someone a raise is, in itself, neither moral nor immoral. There are both moral and immoral reasons for doing either one.Could someone find the reason why cutting costs (lay offs, cut pay, cut benefits, etc) is not immoral? I trust your belief, if not the Church would be a little too crazy for me
Employers cannot do any of those good things if they can’t even stay afloat. Staying afloat, let alone having the resources to do most of the things on the USCCB’s list, requires controlling costs and sometimes shutting down operations and/or letting people go. Therefore, implicitly, the Church’s appreciation of what employers contribute is an acceptance of cutting costs when it’s not immoral to do so.
I, too, am perplexed by a lack of specifics as to how to implement ‘living wage’ beyond the concept phase. To my way of thinking, the principles should apply to the big GM’s and Chrysler’s (both have filed for bankrupcy) and the little ‘Ma & Pa’ corner store. Now, if anyone knows of this - please let me know.
Glad you have experience. So, I’m sure you know what you thought on the way in is not nearly what you found out when you got in. Exactly what depends on the attitude you had prior to launching?
Both France and Germany have already come out of their recessions. We haven’t even hit out bottom but we will. In good part it’s because people other than their top 10% or 20% actually have some money to spend in those countries. Those countries have figured out ‘living wage’. If people are paid decently they can afford to consume. You can’t pay people half of cost of living and expect that population to purchase your hideously over-priced shoddy product.
I meant to point out the poor in our cities have food pantries to go to eat and homeless shelters to sleep in. I did not mean to imply that our poor are treated perfectly just better than many other countries. I hope I make sense.
I do enjoy your point though. I wish all businesses operated like under Ford’s strategy. I would like to have a refrigerator to last 40+ years instead of 10 years, but that’s just my opinion. A sad fact is that many of those bailed out companies were not good businesses and the good ones failed because they were not big enough or had lobbying power
.Many are on the streets because mental hospitals were either shut down or greatly reduced in size because of the development of various antipsychotic medications that improved care… but, did not necessarily eliminate the need for hospitalization.