Are Catholics allowed to refrute Islam?

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Liquid47 said:
Islam is not an antichrist movement with evil social aspects.
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There is also the people-deceiving cult (threskeia) of the Ishmaelites, the forerunner of the Antichrist, which prevails until now.
St John Damacene
Liquid47 said:
As Catholics, we should attempt to see the good in people, and help them on their way to Christian perfection.
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I certainly agree that we need to pray for all people, including Muslims.
 
ManOnFire said:
Muhammed was raised by his uncle, Abu Talib, who was a scribe for the old and new testaments. His uncle would undoubtedly have had intimate knowledge of our Faith due to all his transcriptions into the local language, and it’s logical thay they had many conversations about it since they lived together. One or both men could have witnessed the objections to the faith by the locals, probably due to references to cannibalism. Muhammed could have dreamed an “improved” version of our religion. There were no witnesses, so how can we discern?
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Where did you get this information? I’m really interested to find out especially this part.

‘‘Abu Talib, who was a scribe for the old and new testaments. His uncle would undoubtedly have had intimate knowledge of our Faith due to all his transcriptions into the local language,’’
 
If the CCC is going to throw a bone to Islam, they might as well throw one for Mormonism and about 20 other religions too. If a religion involves focusing on a single man as it’s prophet and whatnot it can’t be part of ours. Judaism is basically half of Catholicism. They don’t necessarily believe in any wierd “Extra” stuff per say that we don’t. Islam is something completely different. Idk why the people who wrote CCC are trying to suck up to Muslims. s
 
While “suck up” wouldn’t be my first choice, I agree with the sentiment 😛
SnakeMauler said:
If the CCC is going to throw a bone to Islam, they might as well throw one for Mormonism and about 20 other religions too. If a religion involves focusing on a single man as it’s prophet and whatnot it can’t be part of ours. Judaism is basically half of Catholicism. They don’t necessarily believe in any wierd “Extra” stuff per say that we don’t. Islam is something completely different. Idk why the people who wrote CCC are trying to suck up to Muslims. s
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Well considering the Catechism is how old now? I do believe its time to go back to the drawing board and re-think Islam.

Just in the last year alone look at the chaos? Look at just whats now taking place in the USA with King and Homeland Security.

We have a problem. And the ostrich head in the sand thinking isn’t working.

Now there’s being polite and then there’s being realistic:shrug:
 
Sorry guys, But I’m going with my Orthodox Brothers on this one.👍
 
SnakeMauler said:
If the CCC is going to throw a bone to Islam, they might as well throw one for Mormonism and about 20 other religions too. If a religion involves focusing on a single man as it’s prophet and whatnot it can’t be part of ours. Judaism is basically half of Catholicism. They don’t necessarily believe in any wierd “Extra” stuff per say that we don’t. Islam is something completely different. Idk why the people who wrote CCC are trying to suck up to Muslims. s
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Weird stuff like what? It is from the Ahadith that Muslims derive their model for how to live, love, work, raise children, eat, give charity, greet each other, pray, etc. The point, here, is that after having received the command from God to pray, Muslims look to the example of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) to learn how to pray. Were Christians and Jews to look to the examples of the prophets (peace be upon them all) given in the Torah and the Gospel, then they would find themselves praying like Muslims. Here’s proof…

Genesis 17:1-4 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, 4 As for Me, behold, My covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

Deuteronomy 5:6-9 I am the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 7 Thou shalt have none other gods before Me. 8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: 9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them nor serve them…

The very fact that God is instructing people not to “bow down” to idols, means that bowing is a valid form of worship.

Psalm 95:6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the Lord our Maker.

Note that both bowing and kneeling are mentioned in Psalm 95:6, the very order in which Muslims perform them.

Deuteronomy 9:24-25 Ye have been rebellious against the Lord from the day that I knew you. 25 Thus I fell down before the Lord forty days and forty nights, as I fell down the first; because the Lord had said He would destroy you.

Revelations 7:11-12 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Joshua 7:6-7 And Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the Lord until eventide, he and the elders of Israel, and put dust upon their heads. 7 And Joshua said, Alas, O Lord God, wherefore hast Thou at all brought this people over Jordan, to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy us? Would to God we had been content, and dwelt on the other side of the Jordan!

Numbers 16:20-22And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, saying, 21 Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment. 22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt Thou be wroth with the all of the congregation?

Just an example, if you would mention the ‘‘weird’’ things that muslims do then please bring them up. Islam is the only religion that truly follows their faith fully if they believe.
 
As above.👍

I simply don;t see Islam and Christianity as compatible and come under considerable bewilderment as to why the CCC writers slotted in a bone to Islam (fortunately its not an inspired text and contains theological opinion in addition to dogma)

As to the previous statements by a person saying that the Quran calls for tolerance and such to the “people of the book”. Needless to say that according to abrogation theory these earlier verses of tolerance are negated by the later verse known as the “sword verse” which ordains quite a different opinion regarding christians.
 
gmcbroom said:
Why do I ask this. Simple. Since we as Catholics agree that Islam claims to be an Abrahamic Religion. We have to acknowledge that there is some truth in Islam do to this. Does that mean we’re allowed to refrute it? Why do I ask? They believe in God. Good so do we. But they don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus or the Trinity. In fact any who ascribe partners to God are unbelievers. To muslims Catholics are pagans. Worse they don’t believe in sacred tradition and they accept only that sacred scripture which shares their views, that being the Didache, but the bulk of it they view as corrupted. So this tends to lead me to believe that Islam and Christianity are not compatiable. They are opposed to each other. So how can I refrute them successfully? Or should I just let them believe as they believe and we believe as we believe?
sincerely,
gmcbroom
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👍

As a short direct answer, of course, Catholics are allowed to refute Islam.

More broadly, Catholics are allowed to refute any falsehoods.

Is everything about Islam false?

The subject matter is too immense to answer, but any thinking person is allowed to refute what he/she finds false, in his/her study of the matter.

Mind you, refutation is not *ipso facto *truth.

🙂
 
Rebax said:
Weird stuff like what? It is from the Ahadith that Muslims derive their model for how to live, love, work, raise children, eat, give charity, greet each other, pray, etc. The point, here, is that after having received the command from God to pray, Muslims look to the example of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) to learn how to pray. Were Christians and Jews to look to the examples of the prophets (peace be upon them all) given in the Torah and the Gospel, then they would find themselves praying like Muslims. Here’s proof…

Genesis 17:1-4 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, 4 As for Me, behold, My covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

Deuteronomy 5:6-9 I am the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 7 Thou shalt have none other gods before Me. 8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: 9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them nor serve them…

The very fact that God is instructing people not to “bow down” to idols, means that bowing is a valid form of worship.

Psalm 95:6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the Lord our Maker.

Note that both bowing and kneeling are mentioned in Psalm 95:6, the very order in which Muslims perform them.

Deuteronomy 9:24-25 Ye have been rebellious against the Lord from the day that I knew you. 25 Thus I fell down before the Lord forty days and forty nights, as I fell down the first; because the Lord had said He would destroy you.

Revelations 7:11-12 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Joshua 7:6-7 And Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the Lord until eventide, he and the elders of Israel, and put dust upon their heads. 7 And Joshua said, Alas, O Lord God, wherefore hast Thou at all brought this people over Jordan, to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy us? Would to God we had been content, and dwelt on the other side of the Jordan!

Numbers 16:20-22And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, saying, 21 Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment. 22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt Thou be wroth with the all of the congregation?

Just an example, if you would mention the ‘‘weird’’ things that muslims do then please bring them up. Islam is the only religion that truly follows their faith fully if they believe.
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If you use those verses from the Bible, why not use the whole thing?
You just unintentionally mentioned one of the major problems with Islam. This broad idea that “what Jews and Christians call their scripture” is corrupted and not corrupted when it suits the Muslims’ tastes. I can’t remember the word for this belief, but it is faulty.

My question is, if Christian scriptures were corrupted and intentionally altered, who did it? If they did, surely there would be loads of people who objected to the changes. Etc. etc.
 
tomarin said:
I think that we as Catholics believe that Mohammad was a false prophet. Therefore whatever the religion he founded teaches, it is not based on divine revelation. They may believe in God but they do so imperfectly because they reject Christ’s divinity (as well as many other things that are foundational to Christianity).

As for how you can refute them, there are a number of apologetics publications devoted to that question, some of them available through Catholic Answers.
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I missed this earlier. but this really is the point. Basic Christian heresy.

Middle East is escalating in Christian contempt and conversation is becoming a futile attempt. I don’t see a good outcome. maybe I’m wrong and logic and the sanctity of life will prevail. Nonetheless it doesn’t appear to be in the future.

No easy answers are there?
 
GaryTaylor said:
I missed this earlier. but this really is the point. Basic Christian heresy.

Middle East is escalating in Christian contempt and conversation is becoming a futile attempt. I don’t see a good outcome. maybe I’m wrong and logic and the sanctity of life will prevail. Nonetheless it doesn’t appear to be in the future.

No easy answers are there?
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I think you’re right on.
It’s easy to be all warm and fuzzy when you are thousands of miles away in your cozy, safe home while brothers and sisters in Christ, in areas taken over by Islam, suffer terrible atrocities.
 
GaryTaylor said:
Well considering the Catechism is how old now? I do believe its time to go back to the drawing board and re-think Islam.

Just in the last year alone look at the chaos? Look at just whats now taking place in the USA with King and Homeland Security.

We have a problem. And the ostrich head in the sand thinking isn’t working.

Now there’s being polite and then there’s being realistic:shrug:
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Well, I suspect everyone must fall prey to the lies. Even our beloved Church must fall prey to these things. So we can discern for ourselves and stand for our faith. The Holy Mother Church still knows best.

Changing what is widely accepted will utterly make things worse. The riots more chaotic. Let’s just bear with it for a while. Just be ready.
 
I for one love the Catholic Church and her Catechism but I must disagree with CCC 841 for specific reasons.

One, I will not call my God the True God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, allah. It’s a gravest insult to the God who loved me died for me on the cross.

Two, I can’t equate the One and Only True God with a god who lies. I can’t equate the God of Israel as a deceiver. I can’t equate My Lord and Savior to be a schemer of evil against man. My God is so Good that it’s a great disservice on my part to follow a false god that allow dishonor on women and their basic rights.

This is the testament of my faith. If I can openly say these to a muslim, without being threatened back, I will.
 
trdchubi said:
I for one love the Catholic Church and her Catechism but I must disagree with CCC 841 for specific reasons.

One, I will not call my God the True God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, allah. It’s a gravest insult to the God who loved me died for me on the cross.

Two, I can’t equate the One and Only True God with a god who lies. I can’t equate the God of Israel as a deceiver. I can’t equate My Lord and Savior to be a schemer of evil against man. My God is so Good that it’s a great disservice on my part to follow a false god that allow dishonor on women and their basic rights.

This is the testament of my faith. If I can openly say these to a muslim, without being threatened back, I will.
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You just contradicted your above statement from the previous post. You want to say the “Holy Mother Church Knows Best” in one post but can’t agree with 841 in the next?

You don’t see a contradiction there?

The catechism was written by JP-II from 1978 to the early 80’s. Its time to update and stand up and speak the Truth. Put the Truth up there for what it is. Let the TRUTH be told to all. Thats all anyone is saying.

And I’ve heard the Truth spoke in Catholic Homilys at mass about Islam. Very different than what 841 is stating.

I’m not saying we need Apostles as in Christs time with hearts on Fire, but a few that burn a little hotter woundn’t hurt. These are Sheep and they follow like sheep. There’s been enough Christians slaughtered by Islam last century, this one started worse?
 
GaryTaylor said:
You just contradicted your above statement from the previous post. You want to say the “Holy Mother Church Knows Best” in one post but can’t agree with 841 in the next?

You don’t see a contradiction there?

The catechism was written by JP-II from 1978 to the early 80’s. Its time to update and stand up and speak the Truth. Put the Truth up there for what it is. Let the TRUTH be told to all. Thats all anyone is saying.

And I’ve heard the Truth spoke in Catholic Homilys at mass about Islam. Very different than what 841 is stating.

I’m not saying we need Apostles as in Christs time with hearts on Fire, but a few that burn a little hotter woundn’t hurt. These are Sheep and they follow like sheep. There’s been enough Christians slaughtered by Islam last century, this one started worse?
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Yes I definitely see your point. My disagreement with CCC 841 stems from the idea of what is obvious versus what is pragmatic.

With informations and news sensationalized and wrongly interpreted by those radical cowards, we’ll end up being the primary targets of increased acts of terrorism when we erased few simple paragraphs in our catechism and tell it to the world.

I know by Her wisdom, the Church knows these better than we do. She knows of its repercussions. She can’t simply risk it, for our sake. In fact, she can’t afford it. With the zakat, jizyah and oil money, how can the Vatican equal that? With the separation of church and state where will she get the funds after declaring the falsehood of islam?

Right now the Church has a lot of other things to deal with, money matters is one of them. The Church is ravage from within already and a violent force outside might overwhelm it pretty badly.

A simple act of charity towards a self proclaim peaceful religion is practical right now. A wise move, in a sense by Vatican 2. But as discerning Catholics we better know how to read between the lines. Be prepared to witness to the Truth when the critical moment comes and defend that Truth with zeal.
 
The most important thing to recognize is that Islam is more than a religion. It is in fact a 100% total complete system of life, including military, religious, legal, and social aspects. “Allah” must be honored in every aspect of a Muslim’s life, if that Muslim is living by the Koran. Their legal system is Sharia law, which is incompatible with our Constitution in every way.

And Muslim scholars, as well as former Muslims, maintain that within Muslims, there is no division of “moderate” and “extreme.” They are all just Muslims. Maybe the jihadists are actually living Islam closer to the Koran than the others, but it’s all Islam.

Not saying that all Muslims are terrorists, the terrorists are effective within their larger community - to keep the more secular Muslims quiet.

But the Church has to recognize that Islam is much more than a religion, let alone a religion of peace. Over 16,000 deadly terrorist attacks since 9/11/2001 attest to that.

religionofpeace.com
 
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