Are Catholics easy targets?

[eucharisteo]

OKAY Padrej, you nearly killed me laughing to death. Just now catching my breath. I just had to send this to my pastor.

Regardless, read the following about Tom Cabeen
I watched him on the Journey home last year and was amazed at his marvelous journey home to the Catholic Church.

 

[Anna_Scott]

How do you justify trying to convert Catholics or any other group of Christian to come into your church?

eucharisteo,

Very interesting Thread. Thanks for the link, Padrej.

As many of my friends here know; I grew up in Southern Baptist Churches. Many (not all) Baptists do not believe Catholics are “saved,” or even Christians. It may seem that Catholics are singled out; but a number of other Churches fall into the “unsaved” category, as well.

I do think many Protestant Churches proselytize out of concern for those they believe are not “saved.” While their methods may seem offensive, I think many have good intentions.

The more I studied Holy Scripture as a whole, and the more I studied early Church history (still have so far to go) the less Baptist I became. Soon, my own Baptist brethren questioned my faith. Early in 2010, I formally resigned from the Baptist Faith (after a long estrangement.)

Actually, these forums played a role in changing my beliefs. When I first came to CAF in May 2009; I did not believe in infant Baptism; I did not believe Baptism or the Lord’s Supper imparted any Graces; I did not believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist; and I believed one is saved, on the spot, by praying the Sinner’s Prayer. All of these beliefs changed over the past year.

As I studied, I engaged in discussions on threads that pertained to my studies. Sometimes the opposite happened—the discussions sent me into deeper study about thread topics. As time passed, I realized that if I could not support the beliefs I hold; I need to reevaluate those beliefs.

I am currently attending a conservative Episcopal Church, that seems to be far more Catholic than Protestant. I continue to study and pray. Without a year of discussing issues on these forums; I would not have been able to embrace Anglican doctrines. Some of the deepest discussions involved Catholics and Anglicans.

I agree with those who have said that without a firm foundation of study of Holy Scripture and Christian tradition/ECF’s; we are all easy targets for misguided Christian groups, and even cults. I’ve taken some major detours out of sheer ignorance of the Bible and Christian history.

I would not attempt to pull anyone away from the Catholic Church. Some of my major “ah-ha” moments have come through discussions with my Catholic friends, here at CAF.

Anna

 

[eucharisteo]

Anna Scott
Very good post, Anna. I know exactly what you mean.

 

[Padrej]

eucharisteo,

As many of my friends here know; I grew up in Southern Baptist Churches. Many (not all) Baptists do not believe Catholics are “saved,” or even Christians. It may seem that Catholics are singled out; but a number of other Churches fall into the “unsaved” category, as well.

I do think many Protestant Churches proselytize out of concern for those they believe are not “saved.” While their methods may seem offensive, I think many have good intentions.

Anna

I too learn a great deal of about myself and my faith as well as those who share theirs. I suppose as that old saying goes, “You are never too old to learn.”
I wonder if these groups that you speak of with “good intentions” believe the lack of salvation in another group more from ignorance than doctrines thus making the other group the target.
I remember being raised Methodist and many in my home church spoke of Catholics with almost a disdain and anything that was introduced as being liturgical was going to make them “too Catholic.” This is why I say I wonder if this is being done from ignorance rather than doctrine or teaching.

I know that there are exceptions to the rule as I have a pastor friend who was raised Catholic and became a Baptist minister and is now a Pentecostal minister. He claims that Catholics have NO real apologetics and eschews anything that smacks of Catholicism. He even witnesses to Catholics and Orthodox believing that they are not saved. I feel that part of his beliefs DO come from ignorance rather than a legitimate foundation or knowledge of the Catholic and Orthodox.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I too learn a great deal of about myself and my faith as well as those who share theirs. I suppose as that old saying goes, “You are never too old to learn.”
I wonder if these groups that you speak of with “good intentions” believe the lack of salvation in another group more from ignorance than doctrines thus making the other group the target.
I remember being raised Methodist and many in my home church spoke of Catholics with almost a disdain and anything that was introduced as being liturgical was going to make them “too Catholic.” This is why I say I wonder if this is being done from ignorance rather than doctrine or teaching.

I know that there are exceptions to the rule as I have a pastor friend who was raised Catholic and became a Baptist minister and is now a Pentecostal minister. He claims that Catholics have NO real apologetics and eschews anything that smacks of Catholicism. He even witnesses to Catholics and Orthodox believing that they are not saved. I feel that part of his beliefs DO come from ignorance rather than a legitimate foundation or knowledge of the Catholic and Orthodox.

Padrej,

I think you are right about the “ignorance” factor, and the “distain” issue. Christians tell other Christians that Catholics are not Christians. Since they hear this at Church, they believe it must be true. Distain and prejudice take root and are perpetuated, even from the pulpits. That leads to a closed mind in all things “Catholic.” I’ve seen it many times on the forums, and I am ashamed to say that I had an “opinion” about Catholics, when I first joined CAF. The discussions, here, cleared up many of my own misconceptions about Catholics, and ultimately led to a change in my beliefs–beliefs I held in ignorance of both Scripture and Christian Tradition. I haven’t arrived yet. Still studying and praying and seeking God’s truth.

I lived in Greece for 2 years and never attended the Greek Orthodox Church, because my Church of Christ friends told me they were not Christians. I believed them and perpetuated the ignorance. I missed a great experience.

Great post, Padrej.

Anna

 

[eucharisteo]

I firmly believe that the same ignorance exists in many protestant faiths regarding Catholics being Christians. Many Christians claim to be bible only believers yet really don’t know scripture as well as they claim. Instead of dealing directly with passages the contradict their beliefs they simply jump to one that they believe fits their belief even though it is only part of the whole belief.

 

[FrJohnB]

I firmly believe that the same ignorance exists in many protestant faiths regarding Catholics being Christians. Many Christians claim to be bible only believers yet really don’t know scripture as well as they claim. Instead of dealing directly with passages the contradict their beliefs they simply jump to one that they believe fits their belief even though it is only part of the whole belief.

I have as a Catholic priest run into all kinds of Catholics who also believe false information about Protestants so I think there is equal blame for all here. As has been noted by both Padrej and myself there are those on the CAF who are Catholic and yet the first Protestants we attack are the Lutherans with beliefs that over half of the Lutherans today do not even espouse. We also do the same towards the Anglicans and Presbyterians and you name it Protestants. Sadly what I have found is that many of the the types who spew this venom tend to be very militant in their beliefs also and do not like it when a Protestant fires back with the “faults” of the Catholic church. Didn’t Jesus pray in John 17 that “we all may be ONE.” One does not have to mean ONE Church but we can be one in purpose as Christians. Would that not be the first step to bringing all into One flock again? I would rather fellowship with Christians of ANY ilk than to stay in a room of people who try to push one belief over another in an angry militant way.

 

[Padrej]

I have as a Catholic priest run into all kinds of Catholics who also believe false information about Protestants so I think there is equal blame for all here. As has been noted by both Padrej and myself there are those on the CAF who are Catholic and yet the first Protestants we attack are the Lutherans with beliefs that over half of the Lutherans today do not even espouse. We also do the same towards the Anglicans and Presbyterians and you name it Protestants. Sadly what I have found is that many of the the types who spew this venom tend to be very militant in their beliefs also and do not like it when a Protestant fires back with the “faults” of the Catholic church. Didn’t Jesus pray in John 17 that “we all may be ONE.” One does not have to mean ONE Church but we can be one in purpose as Christians. Would that not be the first step to bringing all into One flock again? I would rather fellowship with Christians of ANY ilk than to stay in a room of people who try to push one belief over another in an angry militant way.

You and eucharisteo have seem to hit a common chord.
I have become a devote’ of many Saints and I wanted to learn more of them so I was watching one of Bob and Penny Lord’s shows on EWTN and thought they seemed to be pretty knowledgeable so I purchased one of their books on the Catholic saints. Keep in mind I was in the “seeking” stage at that point. What was shocking to me was they started out well on each saint but after a few paragraphs on each a line would pop up like “But unlike Martin Luther who…” and then the venom and hate speech cam forth for the rest of that chapter. I tried to write them asking why they would write a book in that style that attacked Protestants when I wanted to learn of Catholic saints. I received NO reply from either the Lords or Tan Publishing with whom I wrote the letter. Consequently this hatred caused me to cease to want to be a Catholic at that time and drove me further from the Catholic Church and EWTN. I was a prime target for other Protestant faith with that one. I also wonder how many other person have been turned off by that kind of hatred and pushed away from the Catholic church for that reason. Doesn’t the Bible also say if you cause another to stumble like that it would be better that a millstone be cast around your neck and cast into the sea?

I know that Protestants are also not immune to this kind of hatred, but as FrJohn points out it is a two way street. I remember also visiting the Franciscan monastery in Washington DC and when a member of the Knights of Columbus found out I was Anglican he did not even want me praying there and proceeded to attack me over Henry VIII. Hey I was not alive back then. Do I agree with all parts of that time? No, but I can respect the opinions of those who lived then. IT is this hatred which made me not want to join the Catholic church NOR even encourage a lapsed Catholic to return. I must admit that I have “cooled down” since then over that issue.

 

[eucharisteo]

I have as a Catholic priest run into all kinds of Catholics who also believe false information about Protestants so I think there is equal blame for all here. As has been noted by both Padrej and myself there are those on the CAF who are Catholic and yet the first Protestants we attack are the Lutherans with beliefs that over half of the Lutherans today do not even espouse. We also do the same towards the Anglicans and Presbyterians and you name it Protestants. Sadly what I have found is that many of the the types who spew this venom tend to be very militant in their beliefs also and do not like it when a Protestant fires back with the “faults” of the Catholic church. Didn’t Jesus pray in John 17 that “we all may be ONE.” One does not have to mean ONE Church but we can be one in purpose as Christians. Would that not be the first step to bringing all into One flock again? I would rather fellowship with Christians of ANY ilk than to stay in a room of people who try to push one belief over another in an angry militant way.

There is much to blame on all sides of the issue. The Christians I was referring to were of my previous faith, fundamental evangelical. We possessed many similar beliefs as that were similar or the same as Catholics, yet, for example, our Baptist brothers and sisters would argue against it. For example “works”. We taught that faith without works is dead. We posed the same arguments as Catholics do on here. It wasn’t even “communion” but the idea of leadership qualifications, whether or not they were “real priests”, authority, intercession of the Saints, absolution, infant baptism, unmarried elders [priest and bishops]. These were the big ones. We believed baptism is necessary for salvation as well. Then there were the other silly things that made no difference to us, like instrumental music and choirs singing during worship.

So my point was strictly reflective of Church of Christ, Southern Baptist and a non-denominational congregation down the road we tried for 6 months. I learned about the existence of the ECF writings being available while there. Thus a deepened heartfelt conversion was born immediately only on the basis of what a valid baptism constituted as revealed by the Didache. I turned white as a ghost and said out loud sitting at my work desk “Oh my God, what have I done”. I went to a Catholic and told him about it. later I convinced him to join the Knights of Columbus. I think I blew everybody’s mind at work because I went from fundamentalist to Catholic nearly over night. It was so difficult, emotionally draining that I called in sick one day to seek help from a priest.

Like I’ve said before, you just don’t understand unless you’ve been on the other side of the fence. But thank God you don’t have to go through it because we’ve basically lost confidence from our families, who are quite fundamental and very evangelical with a history of proselytizing. They did it to me and I was one of those uncatechized Catholics we speak about so often. But I know that many Catholics are doing the best they can. You see the Church has failed them by not taking leadership in developing better programs, almost requiring participation in them like we did. Our preacher and pastors would tell us when we showed up on Sunday night and Wednesday nights that we were the “truly faithful”. We were always there. One of the most difficult parts of being in that faith was losing their fellowship and the scriptural study as well as love feasts. Wife’s back from the oratory. Will talk later.

 

[FrJohnB]

You and eucharisteo have seem to hit a common chord.
I have become a devote’ of many Saints and I wanted to learn more of them so I was watching one of Bob and Penny Lord’s shows on EWTN and thought they seemed to be pretty knowledgeable so I purchased one of their books on the Catholic saints. Keep in mind I was in the “seeking” stage at that point. What was shocking to me was they started out well on each saint but after a few paragraphs on each a line would pop up like “But unlike Martin Luther who…” and then the venom and hate speech cam forth for the rest of that chapter. I tried to write them asking why they would write a book in that style that attacked Protestants when I wanted to learn of Catholic saints. I received NO reply from either the Lords or Tan Publishing with whom I wrote the letter. Consequently this hatred caused me to cease to want to be a Catholic at that time and drove me further from the Catholic Church and EWTN. I was a prime target for other Protestant faith with that one. I also wonder how many other person have been turned off by that kind of hatred and pushed away from the Catholic church for that reason. Doesn’t the Bible also say if you cause another to stumble like that it would be better that a millstone be cast around your neck and cast into the sea?

I know that Protestants are also not immune to this kind of hatred, but as FrJohn points out it is a two way street. I remember also visiting the Franciscan monastery in Washington DC and when a member of the Knights of Columbus found out I was Anglican he did not even want me praying there and proceeded to attack me over Henry VIII. Hey I was not alive back then. Do I agree with all parts of that time? No, but I can respect the opinions of those who lived then. IT is this hatred which made me not want to join the Catholic church NOR even encourage a lapsed Catholic to return. I must admit that I have “cooled down” since then over that issue.

Sorry to hear of your treatment by Tan publishing and the writing style of the Lords. I would not be surprised to hear of people wanting to leave over that kind of hatred, it does tend to make us easy targets and prey for other faiths. There is a difference in defending your faith and enforcing your faith upon another. The latter tends to turn people off. Glad to hear that you have “Cooled Down.” Unfortunately after an experience like that it does leave a lasting impression on you as I can tell by your post. Maybe we all need to realize as the Proverbs say, “death and life are in the power of the tongue” and carefully guard our words as they can both hurt AND heal. We want them to heal and that will make others want what we have and come to us rather than be driven away.

 

[eucharisteo]

I’d like to point out that I never speak ill of Martin Luther. In fact, I admire him for sticking up and against the heresies of his time. He probably set in motion what we needed but made a similar mistake that I made. Now, the King of England, Henry the 8th, that’s a different story. And if you’ve watched the Tudors I’m sure you’re as shocked as me. So I’ve been reading whatever I can get my hands on it to figure it out. Originally I wanted to consider becoming Anglican because I felt called to the priesthood ever since I was a boy. But my life was so bazaar that it never happened in spite of my attending seminary. After falling away from Catholicism because of events in my life I starting to realize the beauty of the Catholic Church’s teaching on “authority”.

When we started going through our conversion I wanted to be either Anglican or Orthodox to eventually become a validly ordained priest. I even consider Lutheran. i was trying to figure it all out. I couldn’t understand why God would put the desire to become a priest in my heart and not make it available to me. I took that as maybe the reason Catholicism might not be correct. It took a lot of crow eating to get past it all. So now I’m looking into becoming a deacon instead. In fact, we are currently participating in a “pre-diaconate” program designed for the laity, but required for those considering becoming deacons. I certainly do feel a strong calling but I’ve had to give up the idea that it is a priestly vocation. I love the married priests I run into and believe the Church would benefit from such men and their wives. I think men might feel more drawn into the fold if they see a man dealing with the same things he deals with. Not that celibacy should be trivialized. But there may be men truly called to the priesthood yet the Church is slow to permitting it for some reason I’m not privy to. However, I will not dissent, even if I disagree, and I will not allow myself to fall into the sin of pride by insisting God is calling me to the priesthood. It would cost me the diaconate and maybe that is truly what god is calling me to since it’s the only thing open to me. Sometimes the I feel called so strong that I fear losing my wife. This past year she was diagnosed with cancer and I swore that if I lose her I would not seek the priesthood until my daughter is fully grown, which would put me in my 60’s. But I will never remarry and will seek the priesthood once the door opens to me, but only if it is open.

Now we get lazy when using terms, protestant, non-catholic, etc. I hate all the terms. I prefer to use Christian for even Catholic. And Catholics think I’m nuts for saying that for some reason. But I’ve had to acclimate to using the term “catholic” because it nearly gagged me in the beginning. Early on I was embarrassed to say I was now Catholic and to admit to anything Catholic. I was even embarrassed to buy wine or beer because I had grown accustomed to avoiding it. We didn’t dance or anything like that. Now we’re learning all over again. it’s a very strange feeling to visit MIL who “reminds me” of when she “studied the bible with me” and that we need to return to the “Lord’s church”. I feel bad for it but my wife was converting whether I wanted her to or not. She abandoned the COC long before considering becoming Catholic. However it was my research that showed both of us that the early Church was in fact Catholic. No doubt in our minds now. This is why I get so confused as to why people think they really know and hand onto non-apostolic beliefs. When I say Protestant I do not really think in terms of Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Anglican, Orthodox, Catholic. Baptist, Church of Christ, Assemblies of God, Pentecostal, Nazarene, non-denominational, and several others come to mind. So its not easy dealing with so many different denominations. Further, I was taught earlier in my life that Catholicism was not a denomination but rather was “the Church”. The terms “Church of Christ” and Catholic are considered interchangeable is the way I learned early on. Thus when I met my wife and found out they called themselves the “church of Christ” as in the bible I thought that maybe they really are the true church since they claimed it. They were very convincing and why I fell so easy carry the baggage I carried. My Sedevandist [SPXX] alcoholic father did not help the matter as well as my fundamentalist anti-Catholic mom. It was the example of the Protestants I loved because they seem to put their money where their mouth is, unlike Catholics, who seem to live two different lives like hypocrites, not all, but many. I dropped out of a Knights of Columbus council to join another because it runs a Bingo operation and the men set such horrible examples, making me feel ashamed. I wear my faith on my shoulders, but in a positive way. The same way I wore it as an evangelical Christian, which I still consider myself, only Catholic.

I know for a fact that a lot of Catholic regurgitate, pardon the expression, cr_p from their mouth and call it truth. I’ve heard many crazy statements that make Catholicism look foolish. It’s our method of teaching, choice of words, that hurt. It’s very difficult to find words that both parties can agree to not be offended when used.

 

[eucharisteo]

Sorry to hear of your treatment by Tan publishing and the writing style of the Lords. I would not be surprised to hear of people wanting to leave over that kind of hatred, it does tend to make us easy targets and prey for other faiths. There is a difference in defending your faith and enforcing your faith upon another. The latter tends to turn people off. Glad to hear that you have “Cooled Down.” Unfortunately after an experience like that it does leave a lasting impression on you as I can tell by your post. Maybe we all need to realize as the Proverbs say, “death and life are in the power of the tongue” and carefully guard our words as they can both hurt AND heal. We want them to heal and that will make others want what we have and come to us rather than be driven away.

Part of the reason I’m here is to learn to tone down the level or method I use for evangelizing. Words can make or break someone. This forum teaches me how to better words things I try to say dealing with my faith. Ironically, I’ve worked in government for many years and was used to being very PC. But that’s a little different. I’m learning to stick to what I believe and clearly state my Catholic beliefs, but in such a way as not to offend. Sometimes I succeed and other times I don’t. It does, however, depend on who and how someone interprets my words. Some get it, others don’t. Sometimes speaking clearly simply offends the reader because it goes against their faith. Getting past this part of the discussion is always helpful and only then can a conversation or dialogue begin. …but nobody really loves to handle a slippery fish.

 

[gcnuss]

I have as a Catholic priest run into all kinds of Catholics who also believe false information about Protestants so I think there is equal blame for all here. As has been noted by both Padrej and myself there are those on the CAF who are Catholic and yet the first Protestants we attack are the Lutherans with beliefs that over half of the Lutherans today do not even espouse. We also do the same towards the Anglicans and Presbyterians and you name it Protestants. Sadly what I have found is that many of the the types who spew this venom tend to be very militant in their beliefs also and do not like it when a Protestant fires back with the “faults” of the Catholic church. Didn’t Jesus pray in John 17 that “we all may be ONE.” One does not have to mean ONE Church but we can be one in purpose as Christians. Would that not be the first step to bringing all into One flock again? I would rather fellowship with Christians of ANY ilk than to stay in a room of people who try to push one belief over another in an angry militant way.

Fr. John,

Very well said. I try to approach all fellow Christians in such a way as not to hinder our Lord’s prayed-for unity. As one who has some anti-Catholic history – based on wholly incorrect information about Catholicism provided by a virulently anti-Catholic Lutheran pastor – I am blessed to count my Catholic brothers and sisters as fellow Christians dedicated to proclaiming the Gospel.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I firmly believe that the same ignorance exists in many protestant faiths regarding Catholics being Christians. Many Christians claim to be bible only believers yet really don’t know scripture as well as they claim. Instead of dealing directly with passages the contradict their beliefs they simply jump to one that they believe fits their belief even though it is only part of the whole belief.

I have as a Catholic priest run into all kinds of Catholics who also believe false information about Protestants so I think there is equal blame for all here. As has been noted by both Padrej and myself there are those on the CAF who are Catholic and yet the first Protestants we attack are the Lutherans with beliefs that over half of the Lutherans today do not even espouse. We also do the same towards the Anglicans and Presbyterians and you name it Protestants. . . .

You and eucharisteo have seem to hit a common chord.
I have become a devote’ of many Saints and I wanted to learn more of them so I was watching one of Bob and Penny Lord’s shows on EWTN and thought they seemed to be pretty knowledgeable so I purchased one of their books on the Catholic saints. Keep in mind I was in the “seeking” stage at that point. What was shocking to me was they started out well on each saint but after a few paragraphs on each a line would pop up like “But unlike Martin Luther who…” and then the venom and hate speech cam forth for the rest of that chapter. . . . .

I know that Protestants are also not immune to this kind of hatred, but as FrJohn points out it is a two way street. I remember also visiting the Franciscan monastery in Washington DC and when a member of the Knights of Columbus found out I was Anglican he did not even want me praying there and proceeded to attack me over Henry VIII. Hey I was not alive back then. Do I agree with all parts of that time? No, but I can respect the opinions of those who lived then. IT is this hatred which made me not want to join the Catholic church NOR even encourage a lapsed Catholic to return. I must admit that I have “cooled down” since then over that issue.

There is much to blame on all sides of the issue. . . . .

Like I’ve said before, you just don’t understand unless you’ve been on the other side of the fence. But thank God you don’t have to go through it because we’ve basically lost confidence from our families, who are quite fundamental and very evangelical with a history of proselytizing. They did it to me and I was one of those uncatechized Catholics we speak about so often. But I know that many Catholics are doing the best they can. . . .

Sorry to hear of your treatment by Tan publishing and the writing style of the Lords. I would not be surprised to hear of people wanting to leave over that kind of hatred, it does tend to make us easy targets and prey for other faiths. There is a difference in defending your faith and enforcing your faith upon another. The latter tends to turn people off. Glad to hear that you have “Cooled Down.” Unfortunately after an experience like that it does leave a lasting impression on you as I can tell by your post. Maybe we all need to realize as the Proverbs say, “death and life are in the power of the tongue” and carefully guard our words as they can both hurt AND heal. We want them to heal and that will make others want what we have and come to us rather than be driven away.

I’d like to point out that I never speak ill of Martin Luther. In fact, I admire him for sticking up and against the heresies of his time. He probably set in motion what we needed but made a similar mistake that I made. Now, the King of England, Henry the 8th, that’s a different story. And if you’ve watched the Tudors I’m sure you’re as shocked as me. So I’ve been reading whatever I can get my hands on it to figure it out. . . . .

Fr. John,

Very well said. I try to approach all fellow Christians in such a way as not to hinder our Lord’s prayed-for unity. As one who has some anti-Catholic history – based on wholly incorrect information about Catholicism provided by a virulently anti-Catholic Lutheran pastor – I am blessed to count my Catholic brothers and sisters as fellow Christians dedicated to proclaiming the Gospel.

eucharisteo, Padrej, Fr. John, gcnuss,

I appreciate the honesty and obvious authenticity in your comments. I think we learn the most about one another when we allow ourselves to open up–risking a certain vulnerability in the process.

I have been very open about my Christian journey. I’m sure some of you are tired of hearing about it. Please bear with me, because CAF has played a huge role in my journey over the past year. So, I’m sure you will hear about it again down the road. I apologize in advance.

As I read all your comments about how we speak to and about one another; I keep thinking about what my best friend said to me just a few days ago. I was talking about all the things I have learned through Catholic friends and in my Episcopal Church. My friend noticed a pattern. Time after time, I would point out the serious lacking in the Baptist Church in contrast to what I have learned about the Sacraments, etc. I realized, in speaking to her and even speaking here on the forums; I was punctuating my new beliefs with a certain amount of “distain” towards my Baptist brethren who hold an opposing position. I’ve done it on this very thread. I’m realizing that I have not wholly forgiven the hurt I experience in the Baptist Church. I need to prayerfully deal with this issue. These things can really sneak up on a person. Thank God for friends who dare to be “truth tellers.”

Humbled,
Anna

 

[eucharisteo]

eucharisteo, Padrej, Fr. John, gcnuss,

I appreciate the honesty and obvious authenticity in your comments. I think we learn the most about one another when we allow ourselves to open up–risking a certain vulnerability in the process.
…
I realized, in speaking to her and even speaking here on the forums; I was punctuating my new beliefs with a certain amount of “distain” towards my Baptist brethren who hold an opposing position. I’ve done it on this very thread. I’m realizing that I have not wholly forgiven the hurt I experience in the Baptist Church. I need to prayerfully deal with this issue. These things can really sneak up on a person. Thank God for friends who dare to be “truth tellers.”

Humbled,
Anna

I certainly know of the hostility you speak about towards your previous Baptist bretheren. We too have gone through the same thing over the past several years, even a time leading towards our conversion. But now we find that we have to maintain a certain vigilance, be prepare, like a scout, in order to ward off the proselytizing family members we deal with. In fact, our greatest fear is if something happens to us both. Then the children will be inundated with some of the most uncharitable attitudes towards not only Catholics but all other faiths in general. Sure there are some that break with ranks behind doors and will tell you out right that they don’t really have issue with this or that. But when it comes to the public party line they’ll go back into full throttle COC mode. Some of our family and friends have exhibited some of the most uncharitable comments and glares that its really best to avoid them altogether. This will be our struggle for the next several years of our life. Anger can lead to hatred, so we must protect ourselves from at least one of the deadly sins.

Good point. You must feel duped like I felt in the beginning. In fact, I felt duped after 3 years of marriage, but knew my wife didn’t get it and therefore it was very improper to project my anger towards her. I beat myself up and really had some frank converstations with God - man to…MAN, not GOD. I was humiliated and felt very foolish for not knowing right from wrong and was merely confused and had to learn from the ground up since everyone seemed to fail me, including myself. So I’ve dedicated my life towards trying to fill in the gaps. But I also realize that I can’t possibly know everything and get very irritated at people that act like they “have it all down”…“put God in a box and keep him there. No trickery allow here. I’m no fool.”

More humbled that anyone will ever know.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I certainly know of the hostility you speak about towards your previous Baptist bretheren. We too have gone through the same thing over the past several years, even a time leading towards our conversion. But now we find that we have to maintain a certain vigilance, be prepare, like a scout, in order to ward off the proselytizing family members we deal with. In fact, our greatest fear is if something happens to us both. Then the children will be inundated with some of the most uncharitable attitudes towards not only Catholics but all other faiths in general. Sure there are some that break with ranks behind doors and will tell you out right that they don’t really have issue with this or that. But when it comes to the public party line they’ll go back into full throttle COC mode. Some of our family and friends have exhibited some of the most uncharitable comments and glares that its really best to avoid them altogether. This will be our struggle for the next several years of our life. Anger can lead to hatred, so we must protect ourselves from at least one of the deadly sins.

Good point. You must feel duped like I felt in the beginning. In fact, I felt duped after 3 years of marriage, but knew my wife didn’t get it and therefore it was very improper to project my anger towards her. I beat myself up and really had some frank converstations with God - man to…MAN, not GOD. I was humiliated and felt very foolish for not knowing right from wrong and was merely confused and had to learn from the ground up since everyone seemed to fail me, including myself. So I’ve dedicated my life towards trying to fill in the gaps. But I also realize that I can’t possibly know everything and get very irritated at people that act like they “have it all down”…“put God in a box and keep him there. No trickery allow here. I’m no fool.”

More humbled that anyone will ever know.

eucharisteo,

I am saddened by the things you face within your own family. That is more difficult than problems outside the family. I can certainly understand the concern for your children, knowing the aggressive techniques of Baptist proselytizing. You do have a huge advantage in Catechism for your children–and the strong weapon of prayer.

Just recently, I told one of my friends, from my former Baptist Church, that I was attending the Episcopal Church. She said, “Isn’t that like Catholics?” That was not meant to be a compliment to the Episcopal Church. Once again, we are back to the “distain” for all things Catholic, or anything that is similar to Catholic beliefs. That was mild compared to what I went through in the Church as I began to question Baptist doctrine. I learned quickly that “questioning” and “Baptist” mix like oil and water–well, it’s more like taking a match to the oil and burning you to the core. The things that were said to me by my Bible class teacher and even one of the ministers, hurt me so deeply. After one particular phone conversation with a Baptist minister, I was left me sobbing uncontrollably. I thought I was tough, but I was not prepared for such treatment by my brethren in Christ. I’m thinking I may need to go to confession with our Rector and seek assistance in forgiving those who wounded me so deeply.

Anyway, the Catholics, who are supposed to be the “bad guys”–who are not even “Christian,” helped me through a serious time of questioning. I can’t say that I will convert to Catholicism (though a year ago, I would never have imagined attending the Episcopal Church); but I will always remember the help and support I have experienced from the Catholic members on this forum. The hottest debates, here, pale in comparison to what I experienced in my own Church. You could all do your worst and not even come close.

Really, in considering our thread topic; it seems like Christians persecute other Christians. That may very well be the worst sort of persecution. Sometimes it feels like being torn to pieces in the “lion’s den. “

I don’t want this post to read like a “Baptist bashing” session. There are some very devoted Christians in the Baptist faith. My sister is one of them. Her love and compassion for others puts me to shame.

Anna

 

[eucharisteo]

Anna,
I know what it’s like to be cut off from our bretheren. We saw it coming because we stood up for what we believed in 1993. The result was disfellowship by the elders of the congregation. My wife and I knew there was something wrong with our faith and we chalked it off as being just them. But later, in smaller ways we saw the same problems. We became very sensitive to hearing certain doctrines because we knew what it meant and that we had to walk a very careful line. Ultimately, 18 congregations later we found ourself in another scuffle with elders that gave us the 3rd degree after my wife, who couldn’t leave it alone, complain to the preacher about slandering “apartment dwellers” who were no as well off as himself and trying to get us to proselytize them. It wasn’t until after we placed membership when our son was baptized that the elders exorcised their authority as head of the church and we quickly resigned and rejoined a previous congregation before anything could happen. This was right after my FIL died, and elder in Oklahoma, and right before being issued a “Stop Loss” order for deployment. I went through hell and back spiritually and that’s when I realized I could never be part of that faith again. My wife finally let go after her father died. We secretly broke to try out a different church, more Baptist like. It was filled with many Catholics. But their doctrine was so contrary to scripture that we just can’t understand how they convince themselves that they are a “bible church”. After six months of that I found the ECF and started reading. Initially, my words were “Oh my God what have I done?” The church was Catholic. From that I extrapolated that we must become Episcopalian then, lol. Why, because if we converted to Catholicism we’d never here the end of it. But my wife, troubled by the ongoing Episcopal leaders choices to ordain women and openly practicing homosexual people quickly killed that idea. Conservative Anglican was simply like what we saw among our previous churches of Christ divisions, a dirty little secret that they don’t like to discuss. Another topic. It was then that I began my study or Orthodoxy and really was drawn to them initially until I realize that the beliefs I was drawn to were really the same. I then concentrated on what I perceived as different and eventually determined that even those differences were not significant enough to make that a sound argument, especially when my wife refused to even visit an Orthodox Church with me. After talking to many Orthodox priests I discovered very unfavorable issues between them and realized that the Latin Rite also had Orthodox Christian in communion with them. So I considered Eastern Catholicism but still received resistance from my wife.

You see I felt called to the priesthood. But without my wife’s support it would never happen. As much as I love her I feel trapped sometimes because of her mental condition that was developed in a very closed minded society of her religious sect. They were very legalistic and celebrated “plain ole vanilla”. The cultural difference of Orthodox was too much for her not to mention hairy old men scared her for some reason - Orthodox priests. I love it still but have resigned to accepting that becoming a deacon may be all that the Lord allows for me. Hind sight 20/20, I’m glad I embraced my Catholic faith once again. All of the struggles forced me to study more and more and why I chat on her. I find all Christians, Catholic alike, to be uniformly rude, obnoxious, ignorant, joyful, pessimistic, knowledgeable, informed, peaceful, etc. In other words Christians are of the same body - just not communicating with each other. However I do believe that the Catholic Church teaches the fullness of truth, yet many Catholics, joining the ranks of non-catholic Christians, are not practicing the fullness of truth quite the way we ought. I see all of us as trying to work through it, but some cover up their disbelieve. Some outright rebell against it causing division. It’s a sad state that we are in today. I’m learning to be more charitable again to our previous faith. But a deeply wounded wife makes it very difficult. She’s quite critical of them, but fortunately avoids them. I just hate hearing all the negative jousts like she used to make towards my Catholic faith, even when I wasn’t practicing it. It sounds so bigoted and not very lady like to me.

 

[Padrej]

Anna,
I know what it’s like to be cut off from our bretheren. We saw it coming because we stood up for what we believed in 1993. The result was disfellowship by the elders of the congregation. My wife and I knew there was something wrong with our faith and we chalked it off as being just them. But later, in smaller ways we saw the same problems. We became very sensitive to hearing certain doctrines because we knew what it meant and that we had to walk a very careful line. Ultimately, 18 congregations later we found ourself in another scuffle with elders that gave us the 3rd degree after my wife, who couldn’t leave it alone, complain to the preacher about slandering “apartment dwellers” who were no as well off as himself and trying to get us to proselytize them. It wasn’t until after we placed membership when our son was baptized that the elders exorcised their authority as head of the church and we quickly resigned and rejoined a previous congregation before anything could happen. This was right after my FIL died, and elder in Oklahoma, and right before being issued a “Stop Loss” order for deployment. I went through hell and back spiritually and that’s when I realized I could never be part of that faith again. My wife finally let go after her father died. We secretly broke to try out a different church, more Baptist like. It was filled with many Catholics. But their doctrine was so contrary to scripture that we just can’t understand how they convince themselves that they are a “bible church”. After six months of that I found the ECF and started reading. Initially, my words were “Oh my God what have I done?” The church was Catholic. From that I extrapolated that we must become Episcopalian then, lol. Why, because if we converted to Catholicism we’d never here the end of it. But my wife, troubled by the ongoing Episcopal leaders choices to ordain women and openly practicing homosexual people quickly killed that idea. Conservative Anglican was simply like what we saw among our previous churches of Christ divisions, a dirty little secret that they don’t like to discuss. Another topic. It was then that I began my study or Orthodoxy and really was drawn to them initially until I realize that the beliefs I was drawn to were really the same. I then concentrated on what I perceived as different and eventually determined that even those differences were not significant enough to make that a sound argument, especially when my wife refused to even visit an Orthodox Church with me. After talking to many Orthodox priests I discovered very unfavorable issues between them and realized that the Latin Rite also had Orthodox Christian in communion with them. So I considered Eastern Catholicism but still received resistance from my wife.

You see I felt called to the priesthood. But without my wife’s support it would never happen. As much as I love her I feel trapped sometimes because of her mental condition that was developed in a very closed minded society of her religious sect. They were very legalistic and celebrated “plain ole vanilla”. The cultural difference of Orthodox was too much for her not to mention hairy old men scared her for some reason - Orthodox priests. I love it still but have resigned to accepting that becoming a deacon may be all that the Lord allows for me. Hind sight 20/20, I’m glad I embraced my Catholic faith once again. All of the struggles forced me to study more and more and why I chat on her. I find all Christians, Catholic alike, to be uniformly rude, obnoxious, ignorant, joyful, pessimistic, knowledgeable, informed, peaceful, etc. In other words Christians are of the same body - just not communicating with each other. However I do believe that the Catholic Church teaches the fullness of truth, yet many Catholics, joining the ranks of non-catholic Christians, are not practicing the fullness of truth quite the way we ought. I see all of us as trying to work through it, but some cover up their disbelieve. Some outright rebell against it causing division. It’s a sad state that we are in today. I’m learning to be more charitable again to our previous faith. But a deeply wounded wife makes it very difficult. She’s quite critical of them, but fortunately avoids them. I just hate hearing all the negative jousts like she used to make towards my Catholic faith, even when I wasn’t practicing it. It sounds so bigoted and not very lady like to me.

Have you considered becoming a deacon in the Catholic church? They need persons of your caliber that know the truth and can defend the faith.

 

[FrJohnB]

Have you considered becoming a deacon in the Catholic church? They need persons of your caliber that know the truth and can defend the faith.

I will agree with that sentiment eucharisteo. We do need people like you.

 

[eucharisteo]

Have you considered becoming a deacon in the Catholic church? They need persons of your caliber that know the truth and can defend the faith.

The answer to your question is “YES!”
I will PM you the rest.