Are Catholics easy targets?

[Padrej]

That’s an interesting (RC) way of phrasing the question, Euch, because if it were a case of, say, the Navigators or the Campus Crusaders or the IVF, they wouldn’t be trying to convert you to any particular church, but rather to Christ Himself first and foremost. (That roots in their not equating Christ with His Body, as I have read the RC does.)

From my own experience and study, it seems pretty clear that the only way a person gets converted is if they find some sort of deficiency in their present worldview/convictions. Reaching that point can be cataclysmic, or it can be a matter of the “slow frogboil.” Personally, I don’t try to convert people, mainly because I can’t stand it when JW’s and Mormons try to convert me (“Do unto others…”). I figure, if someone asks me about what makes me tick spiritually (a la Peter’s “Be prepared to give a reason for the hope within you…”), then I’ll be glad to chat with them, but even then, only as far as they want to go with it: with some folks, that might mean 10 minutes, with others, 2-3 hours.

As for the justification people might have for when they do try to convert others, there are various reasons: truly worrying about the person’s eternal welfare (relatives, spouse, cherished friends); their church tells them they’ve gotta; (ostensible) Brownie points with God; etc. (Oh, and there’s of course the case where a religious body runs the gov’t. and justifies persecuting dissenters by claiming they’re a threat to the community’s cohesiveness.) But my own conviction is: pressuring (or worse yet: manipulating) people does not bring about genuine conversion.

I want to chime in on the “justification people might have.” One of my fellow pastor friends who was raised Catholic and is now Protestant (former Baptist Pastor and now pentecostal how that jump was made I have no idea) has no qualms about trying to convert Catholics as he sees them as “unsaved.” Let me say, that I eschew that practice because if a person believes the way they do that is different from me, I too will not force my faith on them. I will if they ask me my beliefs be ready to defend them. My Roman Catholic relatives are always ready to defend theirs and I doubt they would ever leave the faith (Catholic) as they are educated in what they believe. I find the one relative that did leave the Catholic church was not over abuse but over how she was treated when having a child out of wedlock.
I have also heard another friend of mine who left over divorce and after her Ex got an annulment she was told that she could come back to the church and receive the sacraments. Funny she was not under ANY writ of excommunication other than the priest telling her she was because of her divorce so she is now Protestant. Maybe in this case if the **priest was educated **he would not have advised her away from the Catholic church. This same priest (I know personally) did go back and apologize for telling her such as he was in error, but sadly after 2 years the damage was done ans she is now firmly a Protestant.

 

[eucharisteo]

Reuben,
Let me first say that I know well the area where Padrej is and there are a great many legal actions in that diocese that have bankrupted it, or caused it to declare bankruptcy. I have also known Pagrej to be a person who does not play the inflammatory card as you suggest. Knowing the dynamics of his area if those people left over the abuse, I would tend to believe it also.
I must admit also that I am in agreement with him as to the Catholic church failing in Bible study and other areas of Catholic education as well. If the people are not being fed they will leave and find the most prominent excuse to be the reason. In Padrej’s region it would be abuse.
Fr John

Amen!

 

[gcnuss]

How do you justify trying to convert Catholics or any other group of Christian to come into your church?

From my perspective, I would not seek to convert any practicing Christian from his or her current church to my own. That does not mean that I wouldn’t respond to inquiries from such persons about becoming Lutheran, but it would have to be their initiative, not mine.

 

[Reuben_J]

Reuben,
Let me first say that I know well the area where Padrej is and there are a great many legal actions in that diocese that have bankrupted it, or caused it to declare bankruptcy. I have also known Pagrej to be a person who does not play the inflammatory card as you suggest. Knowing the dynamics of his area if those people left over the abuse, I would tend to believe it also.
I must admit also that I am in agreement with him as to the Catholic church failing in Bible study and other areas of Catholic education as well. If the people are not being fed they will leave and find the most prominent excuse to be the reason. In Padrej’s region it would be abuse.
Fr John

Well, Father, I don’t like the way he tells it. I have not come across him in this forum so I may not know the background. Thanks for giving the (name removed by moderator)ut.

My reply to him touched only on the reasons of Catholics leaving the Church due to abuse.

I can only speak for myself as a ‘cradle Catholic’. There are certain thing that people especially if they are non-Catholics or even convert to Catholicism do not understand – that is the mentality of us cradle Catholics. By that I am chiefly speaking for myself as it is presumptuous to include others though I would say the difference would be minimal.

To us, priesthood, Sacraments and Mary are part of our lives and thus ingrained in the mentality. For example, a Protestant may not be able to understand why we do not receive Holy Communion. My wife is a convert when she was married to me. Though now she is even more ‘Catholic’ than I am, in our early days of marriage she was indignant when she saw that I didn’t go up for Communion. Her Protestant background could not really comprehend why one should not go for Communion. She thought I had committed some immoral sin! But for me, Holy Communion is held at such high regard that it is unthinkable to receive it even if I am not sufficiently prepared. She could not understand such devotion.

Similarly priesthood. It’s difficult to explain but we do not blame them for the abuse because in our mentality they have given themselves as sacrifices to become priests for us. We who do not give our sons to be priests can only be thankful for them. So that’s the kind of mentality. It’s by no way logical or wise but that how we are brought up with. Sure, even cradle Catholics can leave the faith, but because of pedophile priests is certainly not one of the reasons. Most of the reasons can be like lack of faith or problem with the Church people.

Protestants often expose their treachery with unlikely tales of conversion. Three out of four left the Church because of abuse is too unlikely – that’s why I said I doubt it. There could be other underlying reasons for them to leave the Church but the poster did not have to know. It’s easy to blame things once you are not there anymore but one have to be fair to tell story in a forum instead of recounting it at face value.

It is inflammatory to me. It could be told with more tact.

God bless.

 

[Padrej]

Well, Father, I don’t like the way he tells it. I have not come across him in this forum so I may not know the background. Thanks for giving the (name removed by moderator)ut.

My reply to him touched only on the reasons of Catholics leaving the Church due to abuse.

I can only speak for myself as a ‘cradle Catholic’. There are certain thing that people especially if they are non-Catholics or even convert to Catholicism do not understand – that is the mentality of us cradle Catholics. By that I am chiefly speaking for myself as it is presumptuous to include others though I would say the difference would be minimal.

To us, priesthood, Sacraments and Mary are part of our lives and thus ingrained in the mentality. For example, a Protestant may not be able to understand why we do not receive Holy Communion. My wife is a convert when she was married to me. Though now she is even more ‘Catholic’ than I am, in our early days of marriage she was indignant when she saw that I didn’t go up for Communion. Her Protestant background could not really comprehend why one should not go for Communion. She thought I had committed some immoral sin! But for me, Holy Communion is held at such high regard that it is unthinkable to receive it even if I am not sufficiently prepared. She could not understand such devotion.

Similarly priesthood. It’s difficult to explain but we do not blame them for the abuse because in our mentality they have given themselves as sacrifices to become priests for us. We who do not give our sons to be priests can only be thankful for them. So that’s the kind of mentality. It’s by no way logical or wise but that how we are brought up with. Sure, even cradle Catholics can leave the faith, but because of pedophile priests is certainly not one of the reasons. Most of the reasons can be like lack of faith or problem with the Church people.

Protestants often expose their treachery with unlikely tales of conversion. Three out of four left the Church because of abuse is too unlikely – that’s why I said I doubt it. There could be other underlying reasons for them to leave the Church but the poster did not have to know. It’s easy to blame things once you are not there anymore but one have to be fair to tell story in a forum instead of recounting it at face value.

It is inflammatory to me. It could be told with more tact.

God bless.

Reuben
I do hope that you read my post #15.
I understand your doubts as to their wanting to leave and be converted to the Protestant way. As Fr John said there are MANY lawsuits in the Catholic diocese that I pastor in. I can only rely on what the people tell me as to why they leave. As I have also posted people will find the smallest reason to leave ANY church and many times it is over crazy reasons like what color the door is painted. The problem is these persons tend to give the worst possible reasons for their leaving.
For two of the three it was not only the abuse there were other contributing factors, but to ask them the first words from their mouth are of the worst crimes like abuse.
So once again if one apology is not enough please accept this one.

I also feel that your line “Protestants often expose their treachery with unlikely tales of conversion” is a bit inflammatory in itself as you paint all Protestants to be of one kind and that sounds like you are saying that we are all treacherous. BTW if I told the whole story at “Face value” I would be violating some of their confidences. Would you want ANY pastor/priest to violate the confidence of their parishioners? To be blunt I have had that done to me in my younger years and I do not like it.

 

[eucharisteo]

I’ve heard a variety of posts, some outright rude and abusive towards me and others. I was not only a sex abuse victim but a victim of fundamentalist proselytizing. Sorry if you don’t get why I would ask this question the way I did.

Lutheran, you do sound Catholic, come on home, we’d love to have you.

Fr. John,
The clergy dropped the ball by leaving us to rot on earth without proper Christian education. Although I am Catholic, I’m not fond of the word “catechize” even though it means the same thing. But I do use it most of the time. But my protestant family thinks all of these words are just evidence of us being pagan and not Christian because of the cultural differences I believe. So, we made a tremendous sacrifice by converting to Catholicism, something many cradle Catholics will never get - praise God for that. No one deserves the kind of abuse we receive from the closest of family and friends. This is partly the motivation for asking the OP. It’s a learning forum for not only Protestants but also Catholics and anyone else that may have false preconceptions about the Catholic faith. All of us, including you, have at least some misunderstandings embedded in you somewhere. Give me enough time and I’m sure I could prove it. But that’s not the point of my statement. I have heard the best sermons spoken from a podium set in a Catholic church. But there have been many fairly good sermons I grew up with in our protestant faith. We’ve also heard some of the worst sermons from both as well.

I’m glad to see your presence. I believe you are following the Holy Father’s plea for clergy to get high tech and online. Your presence is much needed in the world, not in a rectory or somewhere away from the world. We need to see brave men shine in the public eye.

PAX

Lord Jesus Christ, son of the Father, have pity on me a poor sinner.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Off topic posts have been pruned from this thread. Please remain on topic or risk a thread closure.

 

[KathleenGee]

I have been in 3 dioceses that have had international attention. But I was blessed with very devout Catholic friends, devoted to Mary in a real, every day way as well good priests who were also enduring…there was a great bond among us…and I found being faithful very purifying because at times it was hard.

I moved to another diocese…and they had their own sufferings…there I almost lost my faith, some of my confidences broken…and it caused my children to see the church in a very bad way…I am praying for their return. I finally was encouraged by friends to go to another parish, and the pastor invited me in…I needed several years just to relax and not be looking over my shoulder…anyway, it has made up for all those years.

I don’t want to get into what it was as it was highly unusual. It was my tribulation and as I came out of mine, that is when all these troubles began to surface after having been submerged for many years.

Catholics have always been easy targets. We always will be. And I can see I may have contributed by not praying for the priests more. But when it is bad, the best thing you can do if there is any, is to find an alternative parish, even if it means driving more.

I also think we are living in the great Apostasy and there is alot broken faith…where there is no truth in relationships that makes love go cold…and He asks if there will be any faith left when He returns…Who knows, he could be here tomorrow or thousands of years from now. But what has helped me so much as a Catholic, once finding my own space and having a number of years to be hidden and heal, is the apostolic faith I hear at Mass and the sacraments, and having devout Catholic friends who have the same focus.

 

[Jehoshua]

In the Archdiocese of Brisbane where i live, there was a parish led by a renegade priest, who was defrocked and removed from his ministry for effectively ecoming protestant in all but name, he set up a buddhist statue in the church, altered the baptismal formula, removed vestments and the list goes on.

Now to relate this back from the topic the media response was effectively one saying this is a great church, more catholics should join with this priest, the Catholic church is a big out of touch hierarchy and so on.

Effectively through the media there was messaging encouraging people to fall into heresy and join protestantism by painting the Church hierarchy in a bad light and painting this renegad priest as some sort of here. From this I deduced that even if protestants or protestant societies don’t tangibly go off to try and convert catholics (mormon style) they still try to subtly lead us away.

This is mostly evident in majority protestant nations where the media consistently attacks the church, such as on moral issues in America or on this instance in my region.

 

[Berean2]

This is mostly evident in majority protestant nations where the media consistently attacks the church, such as on moral issues in America or on this instance in my region.

Jehosh, the media is not Protestant, rather it is secularist to the core (and a certain type of secularist to boot). But you are right in a way: the secularists have for decades used all kinds of venues for their false religion (what I call “stealth catechizing”). The educational system, movies, TV, Rock & Rap “music,” the judiciary, etc.—all are vehicles for their secular baspel. They are aggressive missionaries.

 

[Reuben_J]

In answering the question of this thread, I think Catholics are targeted by Protestants for conversion. Some denominations are outright direct in trying to convert us. I have visitors coming to our house who openly proselytize even though they know we are Catholics, surely by the statues and crucifix exhibited prominently in the house. Others are more subtle.

Whether Catholics are easy target or not, it depends. There are many factors for one to convert. I would say if a Catholic is sufficiently grounded in Catholicism, he or she would not convert to any other religions. He/she would be like the martyrs of the early Christians - give them faith or death. Agreed, not all Catholics fall into this category and this may make them easy targets. The Church, both the laities and the clergies play important role in making Catholics vibrant in their faith and thus stem the tide of apostasy, should there may be.

 

[Izdaari]

In answering the question of this thread, I think Catholics are targeted by Protestants for conversion. Some denominations are outright direct in trying to convert us. I have visitors coming to our house who openly proselytize even though they know we are Catholics, surely by the statues and crucifix exhibited prominently in the house. Others are more subtle.

Whether Catholics are easy target or not, it depends. There are many factors for one to convert. I would say if a Catholic is sufficiently grounded in Catholicism, he or she would not convert to any other religions. He/she would be like the martyrs of the early Christians - give them faith or death. Agreed, not all Catholics fall into this category and this may make them easy targets. The Church, both the laities and the clergies play important role in making Catholics vibrant in their faith and thus stem the tide of apostasy, should there may be.

I would agree that no well-grounded Christian ought to convert to another religion, but should stick with it to the death as did the early martyrs. But I don’t see Catholicism, Protestantism, and Orthodoxy as different religions, but as three valid branches of the Christian faith… though of course we differ in our opinion of which branch is best. That’s the reason why I don’t seek to convert Catholics. If I saw them as being in a different religion, I suppose I would be under obligation to try to convert them.

 

[KathleenGee]

I myself do not bother with other forums of different beliefs or interpretations. I usually find the fundamentalist/evangelicals dropping a line to me that I am not Christian or believe in a man made church. I just don’t even bother answering, but move to the topic. If we come back, I try to find some common ground and then offer where we are the same.

When people come out like that, they are pretty convinced and aren’t open to any other perspective and I think it better to keep and nurture the relationship.

 

[Padrej]

I would agree that no well-grounded Christian ought to convert to another religion, but should stick with it to the death as did the early martyrs. But I don’t see Catholicism, Protestantism, and Orthodoxy as different religions, but as three valid branches of the Christian faith… though of course we differ in our opinion of which branch is best. That’s the reason why I don’t seek to convert Catholics. If I saw them as being in a different religion, I suppose I would be under obligation to try to convert them.

I think you struck the proverbial nail on the head. I agree with you that if I saw them as being a different religion I would convert them. It frosts me when I hear on Christian radio lines like, “I used to be Catholic but now I am a Christian,” OR “I used to be Catholic but now I am saved” as if the Catholic church is some sort of cult that one needed to be delivered from. Those like that in my mind never were grounded in their faith and made the easy target for conversion.

 

[Padrej]

I’ve heard a variety of posts, some outright rude and abusive towards me and others. I was not only a sex abuse victim but a victim of fundamentalist proselytizing. Sorry if you don’t get why I would ask this question the way I did.

Lutheran, you do sound Catholic, come on home, we’d love to have you.

Fr. John,
The clergy dropped the ball by leaving us to rot on earth without proper Christian education. Although I am Catholic, I’m not fond of the word “catechize” even though it means the same thing. But I do use it most of the time. But my protestant family thinks all of these words are just evidence of us being pagan and not Christian because of the cultural differences I believe. So, we made a tremendous sacrifice by converting to Catholicism, something many cradle Catholics will never get - praise God for that. No one deserves the kind of abuse we receive from the closest of family and friends. This is partly the motivation for asking the OP. It’s a learning forum for not only Protestants but also Catholics and anyone else that may have false preconceptions about the Catholic faith. All of us, including you, have at least some misunderstandings embedded in you somewhere. Give me enough time and I’m sure I could prove it. But that’s not the point of my statement. I have heard the best sermons spoken from a podium set in a Catholic church. But there have been many fairly good sermons I grew up with in our protestant faith. We’ve also heard some of the worst sermons from both as well.

I’m glad to see your presence. I believe you are following the Holy Father’s plea for clergy to get high tech and online. Your presence is much needed in the world, not in a rectory or somewhere away from the world. We need to see brave men shine in the public eye.

PAX

Lord Jesus Christ, son of the Father, have pity on me a poor sinner.

Knowing FrJohn the way that I do when he says “catechize” or “teach the catechism” he would be referring to Christian education. The problem is that when you hear of someone “learning the catechism” it tends to evoke some kind of initiation into a group. Although there is nothing inherently wrong with the word I think today’s Christian would better relate to “Christian Education” as it carries a broad meaning. I think that “christian education” is woefully lacking in many denominations but it seems in my mind to have taken an almost lackadaisical way when it comes to the Roman Catholic church in my area. As I have seen in posts on other threads that some priests have turned into “Eucharistic machines” that just distribute communion at mass and that is it. Let me tell you if I was a Catholic and only got that kind of feeding, I would be the easy target and would start looking elsewhere to be fed.

Your post also reminded me of Christ’s words “If they persecuted me they will persecute you” also “anyone who puts his hand to the plow and turns back is not worthy of me.” Keep plugging with your family and live your faith before them and you will convert them to Catholicism. As St. Francis said, “Preach the gospel wherever you go, and IF YOU HAVE TO use words.” Maybe something in your lived out faith will bring them to an “easy target” spot too for conversion.

 

[Padrej]

I myself do not bother with other forums of different beliefs or interpretations. I usually find the fundamentalist/evangelicals dropping a line to me that I am not Christian or believe in a man made church. I just don’t even bother answering, but move to the topic. If we come back, I try to find some common ground and then offer where we are the same.

When people come out like that, they are pretty convinced and aren’t open to any other perspective and I think it better to keep and nurture the relationship.

AMEN
I love those who talk about not being part of “organized religion” and then join a church (pick any non-denomination) not even realizing that a church has to have some kind of “organization” to it in order to function. It is those who get “flung about on every whim of doctrine” that become easy targets for proselytizing. A solid foundation in ANY faith would stop that. An evangelist friend of mine commented that “Commitment is old fashioned” when it comes to church. It is also those who are not totally committed to their home church that can be led astray as they definitely are easy targets as well.

 

[Reuben_J]

Knowing FrJohn the way that I do when he says “catechize” or “teach the catechism” he would be referring to Christian education. The problem is that when you hear of someone “learning the catechism” it tends to evoke some kind of initiation into a group. Although there is nothing inherently wrong with the word I think today’s Christian would better relate to “Christian Education” as it carries a broad meaning. I think that “christian education” is woefully lacking in many denominations but it seems in my mind to have taken an almost lackadaisical way when it comes to the Roman Catholic church in my area.

To “teach the Catechism” is to teach the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and that is where a Catholic would acquire acknowledge about his belief. This is normally done when they are still young because they need to have that basic knowledge of their own belief.

The learning process is progressive according to their age and maturity. To know about belief of other Christian denominations is usually not a priority if they have not learned about their own. That is why in the other thread, we are wary about Catholics going to other Christian denominations for Bible study, especially if he/she is still a beginner.

As I have seen in posts on other threads that some priests have turned into “Eucharistic machines” that just distribute communion at mass and that is it. Let me tell you if I was a Catholic and only got that kind of feeding, I would be the easy target and would start looking elsewhere to be fed.

I do not know the context of the subject when Fr.John mentioned this. Generally, yes, Catholic priests are ministers of the Sacraments. Only they can do that, and that makes it utterly important to have ordained priests. None is expected other than the priestly duty that priests has to perform. More importantly perhaps there should be their tangible presence in the life of the parishioners. Other than that the responsibility of the parish is shared obligation between the laities and the clergies. The principle of apostolic delegation in Acts 6 is quite apt so that priests will be freed to ‘devote themselves to prayer and to serving the word’ (Acts 6:4)

Unlike in the Protestants scene, Sacraments are the summit of Catholics’ spiritual food where both the Blood and Body of Christ and the words proclaimed as in the Holy Eucharist or repentance in Confession. Other than those activities like Bible studies and devotional prayers are usually done in groups or movements.

Your post also reminded me of Christ’s words “If they persecuted me they will persecute you” also “anyone who puts his hand to the plow and turns back is not worthy of me.” Keep plugging with your family and live your faith before them and you will convert them to Catholicism. As St. Francis said, “Preach the gospel wherever you go, and IF YOU HAVE TO use words.” Maybe something in your lived out faith will bring them to an “easy target” spot too for conversion.

Agreed.

 

[Padrej]

To “teach the Catechism” is to teach the Catechism of the Catholic Church

 

[4Squarebaby]

I think you struck the proverbial nail on the head. I agree with you that if I saw them as being a different religion I would convert them. It frosts me when I hear on Christian radio lines like, “I used to be Catholic but now I am a Christian,” OR “I used to be Catholic but now I am saved” as if the Catholic church is some sort of cult that one needed to be delivered from. Those like that in my mind never were grounded in their faith and made the easy target for conversion.

For some that is how they thought of it. The part about being Catholic because a Catholic baptized one as an infant. The most strident missionaries to Catholic peoples tend to be those raised in the Catholic Church in my experience. But then I have never been around the people who put their flyers on cars in Catholic Church parking lots. But I do know there are counter Catholic ministries just as they are counter Mormon, Jehovah Witness, Christian Scientist, Word of Faith…and on and on ministries

 

[Reuben_J]

May I also humbly remind you that Jesus said to the apostles that they were His witnesses in Galilee, Jerusalem and Samaria, thus to the whole world. the apostles took it upon themselves later to only devote themselves to prayer and serving the word. So in my mind a pastor/priest should also be the teacher and witness. What were the commands Jesus gave to Peter? Feed, tend and feed the sheep also in my mind it is to take care of all needs of the flock in the “tend” part. If ANY pastor is not tending the flock but only feeding them, where will the flock go? I feel they become easy targets for others as they figure I am getting more over here at this other church.

Yes, I know it and I agree with you there. What I was saying the primary role of the priests is to minister the Sacraments as those cannot be done by the lay persons. The Sacraments being the summit of our spiritual food should not be underestimated in the development of a Christian’s spiritual life. In fact the fullness of Christian life is to be found in the Sacraments.

There are many books on Sacramental life if you want to know and it is certainly not just handing out Holy Communions. Thus in Catholicism, priests’ role is unique in that only them by virtue of their ordination can administer the Sacraments. Of course they are shepherds. I think I did mention how important it is for them to be tangibly presence in the life of the parishioners. Of course being teachers of the scripture, and so on.

In fact in the Holy Eucharist, the whole Book of the Bible (including the Deuterocanonical) are covered in a two year cycle and three year cycle of the daily mass and the weekly mass respectively. So you can imagine the vastness of the proclamation of the words in the Eucharist. And priests certainly are teachers of the words.

When I said that the minimal expectation of them to perform priestly duty, it does not mean they do not other things in the parish. However, it is from the perspective of priority; and the Sacraments are the priority. As the parish becomes larger, the laity need to come in to assist in the parish administration and other needful. But the laity cannot administer Sacraments.

Good for you to go for the Catholic Apologetic course. But then you said you are a pastor. I do not say that Catholics cannot study in other Christian denomination but only if they are already grounded in their own knowledge of their own belief. Surely you would agree with me that there are many differences between our belief respectively.