Are Charismatics truly Catholic?

[beng]

SPOKENWORD:

Beng, You only think you have experienced it. If I was to guess id say you probably have witnessed it.

I have experienced it. Or maybe you’re in the mindset that if someone really experienced it then he/she would ALWAYS be head over heels with Charismaticism? And then someone who just don’t get it you simply dismiss them by saying that they just haven’t experince it?

Hopefully this fad would end. All the silly tongue, waving hands, clapping, sugar coated prayer ala Protestantism, Michael W. Smith’s songs etc

 

[SPOKENWORD]

beng:

I have experienced it. Or maybe you’re in the mindset that if someone really experienced it then he/she would ALWAYS be head over heels with Charismaticism? And then someone who just don’t get it you simply dismiss them by saying that they just haven’t experince it?

Hopefully this fad would end. All the silly tongue, waving hands, clapping, sugar coated prayer ala Protestantism, Michael W. Smith’s songs etc

Beng, Quite a fad when the Holy Spirit came down on the appostles and they began to speak in tongues, but thats not for today,right… As far as clapping and waiving hands lets do away with the book of palsms because thats what it tells us to do. Sugar coated prayer is sweet to the Lord. Beng to much theoligy and not enough intimacy .

 

[beng]

SPOKENWORD:

Beng, Quite a fad when the Holy Spirit came down on the appostles and they began to speak in tongues, but thats not for today,right…

Sorry, during the Pentacost the tongue was the type when all believer could understand. The more advanced type. Unlike in most charismatic which are mostly fake (and might even violate Mat 6:7). And they don’t clap, wave hands, do sugar coated speech/prayer.

The practice of tongue so prevalent in charismatic is so abusive and wrong, exactly why Paul make a strong warning on 1Cor 14

Newadvent entry on Tongue

There is enough in St. Paul to show us that the Corinthian peculiarities were ignoble accretions and abuses. They made of “tongues” a source of schism in the Church and of scandal without (14:23). The charism had deteriorated into a mixture of meaningless inarticulate gabble (9, 10) with an element of uncertain sounds (7, 8), which sometimes might be construed as little short of blasphemous (12:3). The Divine praises were recognized now and then, but the general effect was one of confusion and disedification for the very unbelievers for whom the normal gift was intended (14:22, 23, 26). The Corinthians, misled not by insincerity but by simplicity and ignorance (20), were actuated by** an undisciplined religious spirit** (pneuma), or rather by frenzied emotions and not by the understanding (nous) of the Spirit of God (15). What today purports to be the “gift of tongues” at certain Protestant revivals is a fair reproduction of Corinthian glossolaly, and shows the need there was in the primitive Church of the Apostle’s counsel to do all things “decently, and according to order” (40).

The biggest flaw in Charismaticism tongue is that they practice it within the prayer group and even at church whcih is wrong. The gift is for unbeliever, not for the believer. If one wants to speak tongue and couldn’t interpret it, then might as well do it themselves in their own private time.

But seem like Charismatic people want to flaunt it and do it anywhere even to fellow Catholics. And if ask what are they saying, they probably couldn’t understand themselves. Contrary to what Paul said that if spoken to believer there should be somone to interpret it to edify the church.

I suggest anyone who encounter tongue ala Charismaticism challange them to interpret it if they do it in front of you. If they can’t, then it’s either fake or disobedience to what Paul said

As far as clapping and waiving hands lets do away with the book of palsms because thats what it tells us to do.

Why don’t you do a study of being silent and reverence to waving hands and clapping. Tell me which practice is more prevalent in the Bible. Give me ratio.

Sugar coated prayer is sweet to the Lord.

It’s like words spoken by a dumb blonde meaningless and empty. (Disclaimer: not all blonde is dumb).

Beng to much theoligy and not enough intimacy .

Let me tell you that I’m so much more intimate with God through adoration, Mass, Rosary etc. It’s very uplifting and energized me. A true peace.

Unlike those clapping bla bla that only flaunt emotion. Or do we want to become The Church of Holy Endorphin like what most Protestantism has became?

If I’m not emotionally stimulated then I don’t have relationship with God.

Padre Pio was once asked how did he distinguished between devil visitation and the spirit of Good’s visitation (he experienced both alot). He said that he followed the simple formula of St Theresa Avilla. If the spirit give him sudden joy, excitement, then it’s the bad ones. If the spirit gives him peace and calm feeling then it’s the spirit of good.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Beng. You have no idea what you are talking about. Just like I said you witnessed it but have not experienced it. Those whom have experienced this deeper relationship know what I am talking about. You need to read the book of Acts and see those whom were baptised in the Holy Spirit recieved the gift of speaking in tongues. There are two types of tongues. Im sure you are aware. Just out of curiousity have you done a life in the spirit seminar over a seven week period? You said youve experienced it.

 

[beng]

SPOKENWORD:

Beng. You have no idea what you are talking about. Just like I said you witnessed it but have not experienced it. Those whom have experienced this deeper relationship know what I am talking about. You need to read the book of Acts and see those whom were baptised in the Holy Spirit recieved the gift of speaking in tongues. There are two types of tongues. Im sure you are aware. Just out of curiousity have you done a life in the spirit seminar over a seven week period? You said youve experienced it.

Is it funny that anyone who don’t agree to YOUR version of the Holy Spirit and criticise the Charismatic movement are people who “just don’t get it” according to your book?

Holy spirit, relationship with God IS NOT the monopoly of Charismaticism. And noticing this behavious in you further prove the point.

And again concerning the gift of tongues, I will repeat what I said:

I suggest anyone who encounter tongue ala Charismaticism challange them to interpret it if they do it in front of you. If they can’t, then it’s either fake or disobedience to what Paul said

So, did you hear any tongues lately form your Charismatic friends? Willing to apply the test?

And, no I haven’t been to life in the spirit seminar or get “slain in the spirit” (another sugar coated term). It doesn’t matter. The teaching of the church is there (read the newadvent link and read this)

 

[MIDGIE]

Did I miss something or is this a new post Vatican II phenomena?

I don’t think it had anything to do with VII, but that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon the Church was an answer to Pope John XXIII’s prayer on his death bed on Pentecost Sunday. He was always praying for the Lord to rain down His Holy Spirit upon the Church…right up to the moment he drew his last breath.

God bless you

 

[MIDGIE]

Beng,

I suggest anyone who encounter tongue ala Charismaticism challange them to interpret it if they do it in front of you. If they can’t, then it’s either fake or disobedience to what Paul said

Did you even read the site you referred us to?

"It has always been the constant and unquestioned teaching of both Scripture and Tradition that the gift of tongues is a miraculous charism, whereby the speaker prays to God or instructs the hearers in a language unknown to him, which he is able to speak by a special grace. If anyone is present who understands that language, either because he knows it naturally or has a special gift of interpretation akin to the gift of prophecy, then the gift of tongues edifies and instructs the hearers. If not, then the speaker speaks only to God in a manner more or less private, and of relatively little importance for the community."

God bless you

 

[The_Barrister]

We all receive God’s graces through baptism. Some of us are lucky enough to receive one or more charisms. The danger is in believing the charism comes from within one’s self rather than from God.

Regarding speaking with tongues, I concur with the sentiment below - as practiced by some Pentacostals and other charismatic Protestant groups, it tends toward the absurd, with people clucking and babbling and so on. When one goes back to read the story of the Pentacost, one learns that the gift was really one of understanding - when a person spoke in tongues, the others understood him as if he was speaking in their native language. It’s about divine communication, not incoherent babbling. There are other dangers as well, not the least of which is reliance upon the charism itself rather than upon God’s saving grace.

Bottom line - it’s okay to be skeptical, particularly if the person claiming a charism likes to talk about their charism and make public displays of it. But don’t scoff at the idea.

 

[beng]

MIDGIE:

Beng,

Did you even read the site you referred us to?

Why, of course I do. I read them so many times.

"It has always been the constant and unquestioned teaching of both Scripture and Tradition that the gift of tongues is a miraculous charism, whereby the speaker prays to God or instructs the hearers in a language unknown to him, which he is able to speak by a special grace. If anyone is present who understands that language, either because he knows it naturally or has a special gift of interpretation akin to the gift of prophecy, then the gift of tongues edifies and instructs the hearers. If not, then the speaker speaks only to God in a manner more or less private, and of relatively little importance for the community."

And how is this defy my understanding?

Infact this only strenthen my argument. If someone is speaking tongue to other believers (in prayer group in meeting etc) then THERE HAS TO BE SOMEONE WHO CAN INTERPRET IT! If not, then it is better if he do it privately and not flaunt it in front of the believer (like what most Charismaticists are doing).

So, again

I suggest anyone who encounter tongue ala Charismaticism challange them to interpret it if they do it in front of you. If they can’t, then it’s either fake or disobedience to what Paul said

 

[MIDGIE]

Beng,

If someone is speaking tongue to other believers (in prayer group in meeting etc) then THERE HAS TO BE SOMEONE WHO CAN INTERPRET IT! If not, then it is better if he do it privately and not flaunt it in front of the believer (like what most Charismaticists are doing).

Are they speaking to each other in tongues? Or are they praying and singing to God?

God bless you

 

[beng]

MIDGIE:

Beng,

Are they speaking to each other in tongues? Or are they praying and singing to God?

God bless you

They don’t speak to each other they just blabbering for the heck of it. And this is within a prayer group. Thus, it’s a no no.

 

[MIDGIE]

Beng,

They don’t speak to each other they just blabbering for the heck of it.

How do you know that? I doubt if they would agree with you. I’m sure if you asked them, they’d tell you they were praying or singing to God.

***" For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." ** * ~ Corinthians 14:2

It may sound like babble to you, but it was God Who gave this Gift of unknown tongues that men could not understand unless He chose to also give someone the Gift to understand them.

If these people praying and singing in tongues were speaking to the Church or one another, then you’d have a point. They are not, though, they are praying and singing to God.

I’ve never seen anybody speak in tongues during Mass, but only at times when they are gathered together in prayer and song. Have you seen differently?

God bless you

 

[beng]

MIDGIE:

Beng,

How do you know that? I doubt if they would agree with you. I’m sure if you asked them, they’d tell you they were praying or singing to God.

They claim that they are speaking tongues. In fact they call the session praying in tongues.

***" For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." *** ~ Corinthians 14:2

It may sound like babble to you, but it was God Who gave this Gift of unknown tongues that men could not understand unless He chose to also give someone the Gift to understand them.

The probelm is, it most likely not the gift of tongues but just balbbaring like 99% of Charismatic tongues out there.

If these people praying and singing in tongues were speaking to the Church or one another, then you’d have a point. They are not, though, they are praying and singing to God. raying:

If they pray to God in tongue then they better do it privately and not in a prayer group as warned by Paul. There’s no one but believers there.

I’ve never seen anybody speak in tongues during Mass, but only at times when they are gathered together in prayer and song. Have you seen differently?

God bless you

I’ve heard some “tongues” at Mass. Not sure. And even in prayer group. It’s wrong as Paul has warned.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

beng:

Is it funny that anyone who don’t agree to YOUR version of the Holy Spirit and criticise the Charismatic movement are people who “just don’t get it” according to your book?

Holy spirit, relationship with God IS NOT the monopoly of Charismaticism. And noticing this behavious in you further prove the point.

And again concerning the gift of tongues, I will repeat what I said:

I suggest anyone who encounter tongue ala Charismaticism challange them to interpret it if they do it in front of you. If they can’t, then it’s either fake or disobedience to what Paul said

So, did you hear any tongues lately form your Charismatic friends? Willing to apply the test?

And, no I haven’t been to life in the spirit seminar or get “slain in the spirit” (another sugar coated term). It doesn’t matter. The teaching of the church is there (read the newadvent link and read this)

Beng. As I said before you do not know what you are talking about.You have not experienced it and Yes it does make a difference that you havent gone through a life in the spirit seminar. Like I said you have witnessed it but not experienced it. You need to submitt yourself over to the Power of the Holy Spirit. You do not know what you are missing so I would suggest that you stop putting it down. Like I said the best kept secret in the Rcc,and you are an example of this much needed secret.

 

[MIDGIE]

Beng,

They claim that they are speaking tongues. In fact they call the session praying in tongues

I didn’t say they weren’t speaking in tongues. You said they were only “blabbering for the heck of it.” I asked you how you knew this?

I’ve only been to one Charismatic Conference and I do not speak in tongues, but I’ve never heard anything so beautiful as when the thousands of people there were are all singing in tongues. What a glorious sound it was. These peoples’ hearts were truly raised to the Lord in prayer through song. It was beautiful.

Just because you’ve never spoken in tongues doesn’t mean it is not a True Gift from God. The Lord works in “mysterious” ways, and His Ways are not our ways.

God bless you

 

[beng]

SPOKENWORD:

Beng. As I said before you do not know what you are talking about.You have not experienced it

Same old same old

and Yes it does make a difference that you havent gone through a life in the spirit seminar.

And those people who haven’t gone to that seminars are spiritually dead and can’t recognized the greatness of the spirit like Charismaticism with their tongues?

Like I said you have witnessed it but not experienced it. You need to submitt yourself over to the Power of the Holy Spirit.

Please. This attitude is self serving. Do you think just because I don’t buy the whole Charismatic fad then I haven’t submit myself to the power of the Holy Spirit?

Do you think I have “less” holy spirit?

From this all the bad perceptions about Charismaticists just present themselves.

You do not know what you are missing so I would suggest that you stop putting it down.

You do not know the glory of Mass, Rosary, Penance, Reverent Silent.

Do you do any Rosary? How frequent? Have you been to an adoration? How frequent? Do you go to daily Mass? How many times do you go to confession per months?

Like I said the best kept secret in the Rcc,and you are an example of this much needed secret.

No it’s not. The best kept secrets are

1. Mass + Eucharist
2. Rosary
3. Penance.

Charismaticism tongues? Even St Augustine said that it’s not needed anymore.

btw, have you implent this to your fellow Charismaticists?

I suggest anyone who encounter tongue ala Charismaticism challange them to interpret it if they do it in front of you. If they can’t, then it’s either fake or disobedience to what Paul said

 

[beng]

MIDGIE:

Beng,

I didn’t say they weren’t speaking in tongues. You said they were only “blabbering for the heck of it.” I asked you how you knew this?

Because they do it infront of believers, whcih shouldn’t be the case. And I would dare anyone of them to find a “tongue” interpreter and let him/her interpret their supposed “tongue”

Also, I could ask them to pray for interpretation. If all of them can’t, then it’s obviously not something that the Holy Spirit gives aproval of.

I’ve only been to one Charismatic Conference and I do not speak in tongues, but I’ve never heard anything so beautiful as when the thousands of people there were are all singing in tongues. What a glorious sound it was. These peoples’ hearts were truly raised to the Lord in prayer through song. It was beautiful.

Those are not tongues. Those are just jubilation. It’s stupid to call jubilation tongue. Why can’t they just realize it.

And by calling it tongue and saying that it’s a prayer they might be violating Mat 6:7.

I’ve been to many Charismatic Catholic movement. IN FACT I’m in several right now. I’m infiltrating it so I could teach them how wrong and silly it is. And teach them what real tongue is.

Just because you’ve never spoken in tongues doesn’t mean it is not a True Gift from God. The Lord works in “mysterious” ways, and His Ways are not our ways.

God bless you

I’m not talking whether I could or couldn’t speak tongue. That is not the issue.

 

[MIDGIE]

Beng,

I’ve been to many Charismatic Catholic movement. IN FACT I’m in several right now. I’m infiltrating it so I could teach them how wrong and silly it is. And teach them what real tongue is.

Well, if you are correct, may the Lord bless your endeavor to correct them. Don’t be surprsied if He ends up correcting you, though. It’s been known to happen…even to Priests.

God bless you

 

[beng]

MIDGIE:

Beng,

Well, if you are correct, may the Lord bless your endeavor to correct them. Don’t be surprsied if He ends up correcting you, though. It’s been known to happen…even to Priests.

God bless you

Sorry. I’m still standing strong. And it seems that several have been influenced by and agree to my biblical reasoning. Praise God.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Beng , The mass, eucharist,rossary,ect are not secrets. I think ive said enough to know that ive hit a wall. Maybe someday you will understand, Nice talking to you. GOD BLESS YOU.