Are Charismatics truly Catholic?

[MIDGIE]

Beng,

Sorry. I’m still standing strong. And it seems that several have been influenced by and agree to my biblical reasoning.

Saul stood strong, too, until the Lord blinded him and showed him the error of his ways.

Maybe there are those who only speak in tongues because it’s an emotional thing, but I think there are also those who supernaturally received this Gift.

What do you think of Pope John Paul II? If the Gift of tongues had died out long ago, don’t you think he would have said so by now? He apparently supports the Charismatic movement, so do you think you know better than him?

God bless you

 

[beng]

SPOKENWORD:

Beng , The mass, eucharist,rossary,ect are not secrets.

It’s a secret to many people. And too many Charismaticists.

I think ive said enough to know that ive hit a wall.

I’ve felt that I hit the wall since you keep saying the same old same old. But I persevere.

Maybe someday you will understand,

Really. I udnerstand enough. It is you who need to understand more and read the Bible. Or maybe Charismaticism are smarter than St Augustine?

Nice talking to you. GOD BLESS YOU.

May God illuminate your heart.

 

[beng]

MIDGIE:

Beng,

Saul stood strong, too, until the Lord blinded him and showed him the error of his ways.

Saul comitted a sin. I don’t.

Maybe there are those who only speak in tongues because it’s an emotional thing, but I think there are also those who supernaturally received this Gift. {/quote]
That is why I said that 99% of tongues today, especially from Charismaticsm, are fake.

What do you think of Pope John Paul II? If the Gift of tongues had died out long ago, don’t you think he would have said so by now? He apparently supports the Charismatic movement, so do you think you know better than him?

I said this over and over. But the Pope never gift blanket endorsement. Having an audience with Charismatic movement doesn’t mean endorsement. The Holy Father gives audience to many strange groups. That’s just what he is, a fatherly sheppard.

I didn’t say that the gift of tongues is dead. It’s just that it’s no longer a necessary (said by St Augustine in his own time even). And I know that people like Padre Pio and St Franciss of Assisi could speak the advanced version of tongue eventhough they live after Augustine. But they do it out of necessity, plus it’s the advanced version. I wonder why those Charismaticist never seem to been gifted:

1. The advanced version of tongue
2. The ability to interpret tongue

Why oh why is that?

 

[MIDGIE]

Beng, the mark of the Charismatic Movement is speaking in tongues and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Charismatic Movement has been approved by the Church…so you’re just going to have to deal with it…unless you think you know better than the Church.

You may not think the Gift of speaking in tongues was necessary in the Church today, but I don’t agree with you. To receive such a Gift may have kept many Catholics who were very weak in their faith from having their faith shaken to its very core when the greatest scandal of the Church hit us full force.

"Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not…"

It appears to me that those who have received this Gift have an unshakeable faith now. They have the JOY now that NO man can take from them.

God bless you

 

[MIDGIE]

Beng,

But the Pope never gift blanket endorsement.

Pope John Paul II Approves the Charismatic Renewal and Commissions Her to Renew the Church.

God bless you

 

[beng]

MIDGIE:

Beng, the mark of the Charismatic Movement is speaking in tongues and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Charismatic Movement has been approved by the Church…so you’re just going to have to deal with it…unless you think you know better than the Church.

Approve in what way? Do I have to repeat the blanket endorsement comment?

SSPX was once approved.

You may not think the Gift of speaking in tongues was necessary in the Church today, but I don’t agree with you.

Feel free to disagree with the Great St Augustine. Hopefully the Church will give you the title Doctor of The Church and Church Father someday.

To receive such a Gift may have kept many Catholics who were very weak in their faith from having their faith shaken to its very core when the greatest scandal of the Church hit us full force.

Ridiculous. I and many others who don’t speak tongues and obviously not the fake tongues have never been shaken by any scandal. Why? BECAUSE WE SIMPLY KNOW BETTER!

After all

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you, you are Kephas, and on this kephas I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

One quick look at the Bible or even CCC would ensure that the Holy Spriit will never leave the church. To base faith on emotion is basing faith on a very shaky ground.

"Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not…"

It appears to me that those who have received this Gift have an unshakeable faith now. They have the JOY now that NO man can take from them.

God bless you

There’s the question whether their tongue is real. IMO 99% of them are fake and some probably violates Matthew 6:7

Feel free to apply this test:

I suggest anyone who encounter tongue ala Charismaticism challange them to interpret it if they do it in front of you. If they can’t, then it’s either fake or disobedience to what Paul said

Uh and you could also find an interpreter of tongue and see if your particular Charismatic movement has original tongues or not.

I dare you to do these.

 

[beng]

MIDGIE:

Beng,

Pope John Paul II Approves the Charismatic Renewal and Commissions Her to Renew the Church.

God bless you

A speech from an audience with the Pope… How many times have I addressed this?

I said this over and over. But the Pope never gift blanket endorsement. Having an audience with Charismatic movement doesn’t mean endorsement. The Holy Father gives audience to many strange groups. That’s just what he is, a fatherly sheppard.

And again, SSPX was once approved. I mean really approved.

 

[Tom]

Yes charismatics are truly Catholic. I attended a charismatic Church for several years. Yes SOME of the participants get “carried away”. To say they are “fake” would be unfair, however they get caught up in the atmosphere. Some reasons I left that parish for a more traditional Church; at one service for the blessing of the throats, a woman in front of me “fainted” when she recieved the Holy Spirit, as she was falling I attempted to catch her, I was prevented by the ushers, their answer was the Holy Spirit would protect her. Well the Holy Spirit let her fall and cut her head. The priest once announced that they would be visited by Mary on a certain date and time, excuse me, did Mary check her day planner? I doubt VERY much that Mary makes appointments for her appearances. The final straw was an elderly lady, sweet as the day is long, devoted, a truly GOOD Catholic, she was heart broken because it appeared that everyone else could see the visions she wondered why she couldn’t.

 

[beng]

Tom:

To say they are “fake” would be unfair, however they get caught up in the atmosphere.

I’dd say 99% of today tongues by Charismaticists are fake. Feel free to apply the test:

I suggest anyone who encounter tongue ala Charismaticism challange them to interpret it if they do it in front of you. If they can’t, then it’s either fake or disobedience to what Paul said

 

[MIDGIE]

Beng,

And again, SSPX was once approved. I mean really approved.

Are they now? If there was a problem with the Charismatic Movement, they wouldn’t be either.

God bless you

 

[beng]

MIDGIE:

Beng,

Are they now? If there was a problem with the Charismatic Movement, they wouldn’t be either.

God bless you

Maybe if they’ve been given enough education and if the Congregation of Doctrine and Faith have research thoroughly, maybe tongues speaking, “slain in the spirit”, “baptism of the Holy Spirit”, sugar copated prayers and sermon type Charismaticism will be banned.

Willing to aply the test?

 

[MIDGIE]

I suggest anyone who encounter tongue ala Charismaticism challange them to interpret it if they do it in front of you. If they can’t, then it’s either fake or disobedience to what Paul said

There are 2 Gifts…one of speaking in tongues and one of interpreting tongues. If the people are praying and singing **to God ** in tongues and are not speaking to others, then how are they being disobedient to what Paul said?

" For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." ~ Corinthians 14:2

God bless you

 

[Tom]

I wasn’t referring to only to “tounges” but to visions also. People claimed there were angels standing next to the priest “helping” him. The fact I couldn’t see them didn’t bother me, the fact they were scheduled to be there bothered me. Actually the “tounges” were not very widely practiced at that Church.

 

[beng]

MIDGIE:

There are 2 Gifts…one of speaking in tongues and one of interpreting tongues. If the people are praying and singing **to God ** in tongues and are not speaking to others, then how are they being disobedient to what Paul said?

" For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." ~ Corinthians 14:2

God bless you

They’re being disobedient because they spoke it in front of the believer. Which is un-necessary and not edifying the church. Read the verse again.

1Cor 14:6-14
*6 Now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how shall I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? 7 If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will any one know what is played? 8 And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? 9 So with yourselves; if you in a tongue utter speech that is not intelligible, how will any one know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning; 11 but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. 12 So with yourselves; since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church. 13 Therefore, **he who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret. **14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. *

See how Paul even made a rather hars analogy with flute, harp and stuff

Charismaticists don’t want top realize this. They want to feel that they have Holy Spirit because they speak tongues. Sucha false hope since 99% of them speak fake tongue. I never speak any tonegue but I felt the Holy Spirit, adn so does so many generation of Christian who feel the same way without tong… umm fake tongue.

Now, are you willing to apply those test verse to your Charismatic group? Or maybe you 're afraid that your group might fail the test?

 

[beng]

Tom:

I wasn’t referring to only to “tounges” but to visions also. People claimed there were angels standing next to the priest “helping” him. The fact I couldn’t see them didn’t bother me, the fact they were scheduled to be there bothered me. Actually the “tounges” were not very widely practiced at that Church.

You know what, in those Charismatic prayers meeting that I attend (and I’m working up to “convert” these people slowly) sometime after the Tongue session there’s a silence session.

During this, someone usually utter something and claim that it’s God (Holy Spirit) who revela them. It could be a word (Meekness, virtue etc) or verse or even sugar coated statement.

Very Protestant.

Such a sad state.

 

[David_Ancell]

I think the most well-balanced article I have read on the Charismatic renewal can be found on EWTN’s site:

ewtn.com/expert/answers/charismatic_renewal.htm

With that being said, I’ve looked at the Charismatic renewal with guarded interest. My experience of a Life in the Spirit Seminar can be found here:

davidancell.com/weblog/archives/000769.html

In reading different views, people rate the Charismatic Renewal as anything from the best thing since Pentecost itself to borderline heretical. I tend to take a middle-of-the-road viewpoint.

Specifically, I like the Charismatics’ seriousness about reading Scripture and their emphasis on the work of God as a reality in our lives. Although their worship is sometimes a little emotional for my tastes, it is done for many of them as a means of taking worship seriously. Many had an ability to speak of the Lord in a personal manner that I am far from. Let’s not forget that a vibrant Catholic university, Franciscan University of Steubenville, was founded on the Charismatic Renewal. If that can happen, then there must be something to all of this.

However, I found some things problematic. The whole notion of “baptism of the Holy Spirit” as some separate thing from Confirmation is a bit hard to find the justification for. I do believe the Holy Spirit to be a spirit of self-control who produces order, but the spontaneous praising that they would do after each song seemed quite disorderly.

As for tongues, I was there at Life in the Spirit, and I tried it. I have no idea if it had anything to do with the Holy Spirit, and the Scripture passage they cited don’t add up. In the Acts of the Apostles, the Apostles clearly spoke real languages. There is a passage in Romans about the Spirit interceding for us in inexpressible groans, but it doesn’t appear to have anything to do with the gift of tongues.

In fact, I can’t really tell that anything has really happened since the Life in the Spirit seminar. While I enjoyed the speaker and the seminar, it’s hard to say that it has or will make a difference in my spiritual life. I don’t want to practice any “speaking in tongues” or anything without solid intellectual documentation because anyone or anything can cause an “experience,” but if it is real, I want to do what the Lord wants.

David

 

[beng]

David Ancell

You attended the Life in The Spirit seminar but you are not anthusiastic about Charismaticism? THAT’S A SACRILIEGE!! THAT MEANS THAT YOU’RE NOT EXPERIENCING IT!! YOU’RE JUST WITNESSING IT!!!

You didn’t know the deeper meaning of the seminar whcih is the hidden secret!!

You probably didn’t attend a REAL Life in The Spirit seminar. Or you probably din’t pay attention and didn’t open yourself during the seminnar.

Anyway

 

[Thomas2]

Well now, seems this conversation is rather lively!

I guess that depends on what you require, err, um, I mean, what you define “truly” catholic as!

From my own experience: I’ve been to a few Charismatic Masses and prayer meetings and even went with a stray friend to her adoptive Pentecostal church! That was rather spooky! I’ve seen some pretty weird things and some pretty neat things! I’ve been slain in the spirit, healed, breathed on, prayed over, annointed etc. I’ve listened to gibberish and (thought I’m no one to authenticate anything) authentic toungues. I even “heard” a woman singing with a truely “angelic” tongue in a crowd of about two hundred. How I “heard” her is the tricky part. It was truly beautiful beyond words.

I must admit that when I first attended these things it was as a very skeptical newly Baptised convert only a few months out of RCIA. I thought I’d go and have a good laugh. The joke was on me. On the other hand, I’ve been to groups that have been very hard sell on speaking in tongues and really try to push this charism on you like you need to “prove” that you’ve been truly Baptised in the Spirit by talking in tongues. Not exactly how it is supposed to be, but hey, there are abuses everywhere you go these days, the Charismatics have their share.

If you really want the truth about the Charismatics, go to the Franciscan Univeristy at Steubenville. Do a Google on Charismatics and it should link you there.

On more thing, the best “explaination” I’ve heard thus far was given by Father Mitch Pacwa of EWTN fame. He said that not all charisms are of the supernatural order. Some like speaking in tongues, perfume, bilocation, healing, etc. are of the supernatural order, but there are the more common ones like being a great teacher or good coach or wonderful parent or having a “gift” for mechanics! He said EVERYONE has his or her own charism - meaning gift. It is up to us to use our own special gifts for the glory of God whether those gifts are of the supernatural or the natural order.

Peace and all good,

Thomas2

 

[MIDGIE]

Tom, I agree there are some in the Charismatic Movement who go off the deep end. I went to a Charismatic Prayer Service one day and 2 women prayed over me. One woman whispered to the other woman that I must have a demon on me because I didn’t fall to the floor when they prayed for me. LOL!! It didn’t bother me and I didn’t throw out the baby with the bathwater because I knew these 2 women were carried away with themselves.

My first encounter with the Charismatic Renewal was with a Priest in my childhood Church. I was going through a tough time when I heard about him having the Gift of Healing. I had an infant with me one Sunday when I was out in my car and on the way home I remembered there was going to be a Healing Service at this Church at 3:00. I took the baby with me and sat in a pew in the middle of the Church. I wasn’t looking for a physical healing, but a spiritual one because I was feeling so depressed. I didn’t know what to make of this healing stuff and was quite skeptical about it, so I was simply there to observe what was going on. I was standing up with the baby in my arms when the Priest walked by me sprinkling Holy Water. As he walked by, I went down like a feather into the pew. Never was I expecting something like this to happen to me. With a baby in my arms, I would have surely resisted. It was like this most gentle Power came over me and down I went. I never lost consciousness or anything like that, nor did I lose any control of the baby in my arms. Boy, this got my attention! I went back by myself to the next Healing Service and went up this time to the Priest to be prayed for. Again, I fell like a feather to the floor and laid there for a few minutes in a most peaceful state. This was the beginning of a great change that would come over my life. The Lord got my undivided attention that day more than 20 years ago and brought me back to Him and to the Reality of WHO He IS!

I read a book about the last days of Pope John XXIII which said he prayed continually for an outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Church as happened at Pentecost. I believe he died on Pentecost Sunday or the day after. It appears the Charismatic Renewal began around the time of his death.

God bless you

 

[beng]

There are true Charism and then there are fake charism. 99% are fake.

How to know? well, if they have tongue session:

I suggest anyone who encounter tongue ala Charismaticism challange them to interpret it if they do it in front of you. If they can’t, then it’s either fake or disobedience to what Paul said

Simple isn’t it? If your Charismatic group is true and not fake then you shouldn’t be afraid to put them to the test cause they will pass.

And hey, we are told to test the spirit (1John 4:1)