Are Charismatics truly Catholic?

[MIDGIE]

Spokenword,

I also went many times to see father Babbit in Attleboro who had apowerful healing ministry.

At the Shrine of LaSalette? Oh, I miss that place. I used you go there every Christmas. I never saw Fr. Babbit, but did bring some people with me to see Fr. McDonough when he held a healing service there one summer. Fr. Pat, the singing Priest of LaSalette and also a Charismatic brought much Life to the Shrine.

Actually, I think my very first encounter with Charismatics was at the Shrine during a Christmas Mass celebrated by Fr. Pat. It was the first time I ever held hands with those beside me during Mass while singing the Our Father. I thought it was so beatiful to raise my hands to Heaven in unity as ONE with all God’s people there. At the time, I didn’t have a clue what “Charismatics” meant. I only knew that the Love I sensed among these people was different, but something that I thought was wonderful. For the first time I felt that we were really God’s family united together as ONE to worship Him. Obviously there are some Catholics who don’t appreciate that kind of intimacy among family, especially God’s family, but I thought it must have been so pleasing to God to look upon His children with hands raised to Him as ONE in worship and prayer to Him.

Do you live in Boston? I was born in raised in Mission Hill and moved to West Roxbury after getting married. We moved out of Massachusetts about 9 years ago, but my family is still there.

God bless you

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Midgie. I live in New Bedford area. The first time I was touched by Gods Spirit in a powerful way was at a healing service by Father Deorio at the worcester centrum. You want to talk about Gods anoitting WOW. I havent heard about him in years but I do know he has gone all over the world. I praise God for His movement through the charasmatic movement. Some here are just not open. To much theoligy and not enough intimacy.You can talk to them until they are blue in the face. My prayer is that God will reveal the truth to them if they are open to it instead of just criticizing it.

 

[MIDGIE]

Spokenword, I heard much about Father Ralph A. DiOrio years ago but haven’t heard much about him for some time now. I attended one Charismatic Conference and it was at the Worcester Centrum. It was quite an experience and the first time I ever saw that many Catholics together praising the Lord in tongues like they were. As I was observing, I wondered if this is what it would be like in Heaven. It was beautiful. What impressed me was the harmony of all those thousands of voices singing in a language I’d never heard like that before. I was invited to the Conference by people I didn’t even know. They were so filled with the Love of the Lord, so I had no reason to doubt their claim that these tongues they were speaking was a Gift of the Holy Spirit.

May God bless you…and stay strong.

 

[Marie]

SPOKENWORD:

Midgie. I live in New Bedford area. The first time I was touched by Gods Spirit in a powerful way was at a healing service by Father Deorio at the worcester centrum. You want to talk about Gods anoitting WOW. I havent heard about him in years but I do know he has gone all over the world. I praise God for His movement through the charasmatic movement. Some here are just not open. To much theoligy and not enough intimacy.You can talk to them until they are blue in the face. My prayer is that God will reveal the truth to them if they are open to it instead of just criticizing it.

Here is his website. I don’t know anything about him though. He is still active it looks like.

Father Deorio

 

[burnside]

beng:

They don’t speak to each other they just blabbering for the heck of it. And this is within a prayer group. Thus, it’s a no no.

I wouldn’t rubbish the Charismatic Movement,because the man who introduced me into it had not been at Mass for years when someone encouraged him to join.He became a regular at weekday Mass and Communion and says the Rosary
frequently.However,i found it surprising when he asked me why
i didn’t just put my petitions directly to God rather than doing a
Novena to one or other of the saints.I could have asked him the same question.Why not forget the Rosary and go directly to God???
I fell away from the Charismatic Movement because i found it rather too gushing.Some of the love flying around was not genuine.It was over the top.If it was sincere,they would be falling
over themselves to show their concern away from the Prayer
Group.I wonder if they have ever spent any time amongst the
down and outs and having a guy run his fingers through your hair
or wanting to shake hands with you,when it was probably a long time since he last washed his hands.In the early days of doing this i thought i was being a smarty-pants by wearing some old clothes i would normally use for digging the garden or something
I was afraid i would catch a flea or two and be embarrassed later
when visiting someone’s house.It never occurred to me that the wooly sweater i was wearing would be the very thing that a flea
would be only too happy to jump on to.
I realize that some Non-Charismatics don’t show that concern for
down and outs either,but the failing is more obvious when you are bursting forth with all that affection.I can remember one of the priests saying Mass in a rather small room at the back of the church with about forty people present.We were trying to go to communion when this woman passed out.While a couple of people tried to bring her round,the rest were having to walk round her to get to communion.In a couple of minutes she was back on her feet and hugging her first-aiders.What was it?A normal faint?Ecstasy?I tend to associate ecstasy with saints.She was
a nice woman,but i wouldn’t have described her as a saint.

 

[snuffy]

Dear Beng:
I pray God does not judge you as harshly as you judge your fellow Catholics.
VATICAN CITY, May 30, 2004. **YESTERDAY
Code: ZE04053005
The new ecclesial movements and communities are a “providential answer” of the Holp Spirit for the Church, John Paul II said on the eve of Pentecost.
The Pope presided over vespers in St. Peter’s Square on Saturday, attended by 15,000 pilgrims. He called the vent to witness to the variety of charisms-gifts or graces by God to people for the good of others–in the Church.
In particular, the Holy Father said he wanted to renew the Church’s experience at Pentecost in 1998, when for the first time, representatives of thes new ecclesial realities met in St. Peter’s Square around him and bishops from all over the world.
“It was an extraordinary manifestation of the unity of the Church, in the richness and variety of charisms, which the Holy Spirit infuses in abundance,” John Paul II said during his homily Saturday.
“I energetically repeat what I said on that occasion: The ecclesial movements and the new communities are a providential answer, inspired by the Holy Spirit given the present need of new evangelizaton,” he added.
“This evangelization needs mature Christian personalities and strong Christian communities,” the Pope said.
On hand were members of Renewal in the Spirit, a branch of the Catholic charismatic movement in Italy. Renewal in the Spirit numbers 200,000 people in some 1,800 communities and prayer groups.
“Thanks to the charismatic movement, many Christians, men and women, youths and adults, have rediscovered Pentecost as a living and present reality in their daily life,” the Holy Father said.
“I desire that the spirituality of Pentecost be spread in the Church as a renewd thrust of prayer, holiness, communion and proclamation,” he indicated.
John Paul II encourage the initiative Burning Bush, promoted by Renewal in the Spirit, which involves “incessant adoration, day and night, before the Most Holy Sacrament; and invitation to the faithful to return to Cenacle.”
Its objective, the Pope said, is that the baptized “united in the contemplation of the Eucharistic mystery…intercede for the full unity of Christians and the conversion of sinners.”
“I sincerely desire that this initiative lead many to rediscover the gifts of the Spirit, which have their source in Pentecost,” he added.
He concluded:“Among us, with raised hands, is praying the Virgin, Mother of Christ and of the Church. Together with her, let us implore and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, light of truth, strength of authentic peace.”
The Catholic Charismatic Renewal arose in 1967. Its Internation Catholic Charismatic Renewal Services (www.iccrs.org) is recognized by the Pontifical Council for the Laity.

I thank God for Pope John Paul II who is guided by the Holy Spirit.
Amen…Snuffy

 

[Thomas2]

Beng -

Can I ask why you are so hostile towards Charismatics? The Church has given permission for this movement. That really should be enough for you. No one needs to prove anything to you. Nor should you be so angry about this. Is there something that happened to you at a Charismatic meeting or something? I just don’t get the level of anger and hostility. We’re all brothers and sisters here right? Or are you not a Catholic and come from some other back ground. I hope you can explain.

Peace and all good,

Thomas2

 

[epiphania]

Rae:

one last thing before I forget (as an addition to my last post)…

If it doesn’t matter one’s status of holiness, then what is the criteria for receiving charisms? Why wouldn’t just about everyone or anyone, on the face of the planet, have one or two…including those sinners who are on the ‘lower end’ of the ‘spiritual journey’? There has to be a defining ‘criteria’. That is why I believe that a certain level of ‘holiness’ is part of the picture.

“You do not receive for you do not ask…” James 4:1-3
“Ask and you will receive” Mark 11:24-25

Many times we do not receive simply because we are not aware of what God wants to give us and how good it can be…as I answered before, gifts are not received due to the person being “holy”…and many times you find people just coming for a charismatic retreat and receiving gifts…sometimes they dont even ask…they just become aware something like this exists and they get it…
like there was a time when I took a seminarian friend of mine for a charismatic prayer meeting and after the meeting he realised that the Lord had been speaking to him through visions for quite some time but he had ignored it,not being aware of it.Thats why St.Paul admonishes saying “Do not quench the Spirit…”
Thessalonians 5:19-20
And again, let me confirm, the true status of holiness of a person is the fruit of the Spirit being seen in his/her life…
thats why Jesus said you will judge the tree by its fruit…!

 

[Thomas2]

Ya know,

This comment is part of the reason I don’t attend Charismatic stuff anymore:

“Many times we do not receive simply because we are not aware of what God wants to give us and how good it can be…as I answered before, gifts are not received due to the person being “holy”…like there was a time when I took a seminarian friend of mine for a charismatic prayer meeting and after the meeting he realised that the Lord had been speaking to him through visions for quite some time but he had ignored it,not being aware of it…And again, let me confirm, the true status of holiness of a person is the fruit of the Spirit being seen in his/her life…
thats why Jesus said you will judge the tree by its fruit…!”

Folks try to push certain gifts on folks and tend to put those down who don’t go for the same gifts or without realizing it tend to discount anything other than the hoped for “gift of tongues” that proves the Spirit’s operation to those in attendance. The Holy Spirit gives gifts to all people, not just those who attend Charismatic meetings and ask for them! Not everyone gets supernatural gifts such as tongues, prophecy, bilocation, etc…In fact, most folks get natural gifts, like the ability to be a great teacher, a good parent, a honest poilice officer, etc… Yes, it is easy to say that those who attend Cahrismatic meetings and such are looking for specific gifts of the Spirit, but just because the Spirit isn’t manifested in that way at that time in that person’s life doesn’t mean they haven’t gotten exactly what God wants them to have - perhaps more patience with others, or fortitude to get a sick friend through a trying time or perhaps a more charitable attitude towards one’s neighbor, etc. The most important thing at any Catholic worship service, whether that is Mass, Exposition, a retreat, Benediction or a Charismatic meeting, is the God be Glorified and all those in attendance become better Catholics.

Peace and all good,

Thomas2

 

[epiphania]

Thomas2:

Ya know,

This comment is part of the reason I don’t attend Charismatic stuff anymore:

“Many times we do not receive simply because we are not aware of what God wants to give us and how good it can be…as I answered before, gifts are not received due to the person being “holy”…like there was a time when I took a seminarian friend of mine for a charismatic prayer meeting and after the meeting he realised that the Lord had been speaking to him through visions for quite some time but he had ignored it,not being aware of it…And again, let me confirm, the true status of holiness of a person is the fruit of the Spirit being seen in his/her life…
thats why Jesus said you will judge the tree by its fruit…!”

Folks try to push certain gifts on folks and tend to put those down who don’t go for the same gifts or without realizing it tend to discount anything other than the hoped for “gift of tongues” that proves the Spirit’s operation to those in attendance. The Holy Spirit gives gifts to all people, not just those who attend Charismatic meetings and ask for them! Not everyone gets supernatural gifts such as tongues, prophecy, bilocation, etc…In fact, most folks get natural gifts, like the ability to be a great teacher, a good parent, a honest poilice officer, etc… Yes, it is easy to say that those who attend Cahrismatic meetings and such are looking for specific gifts of the Spirit, but just because the Spirit isn’t manifested in that way at that time in that person’s life doesn’t mean they haven’t gotten exactly what God wants them to have - perhaps more patience with others, or fortitude to get a sick friend through a trying time or perhaps a more charitable attitude towards one’s neighbor, etc. The most important thing at any Catholic worship service, whether that is Mass, Exposition, a retreat, Benediction or a Charismatic meeting, is the God be Glorified and all those in attendance become better Catholics.

Peace and all good,

Thomas2

Looks like Ive offended someone…that was not the way I meant it…
what youre saying is very true…“gifts” are not restricted just to supernatural gifts and its in the discretion of the giver(the holy Spirit) to give as He seems fit…usually gifts are given as per what the person is called to do.
What I meant by the above post was many times by not being aware of what the Lord wants to give and what He wants to do through us,we may miss out a lot…like the seminarian I mentioned, its not like he didnt have the gift of visions…but he never got to use it due to his lack of knowledge of it…
and what is not treasured and used becomes suppressed right?
hope that helps…

 

[beng]

CatholicGeek:

Limited Quotes from …

The full statement can be obtained from the USCCB at usccb.org/publishing/bishops.htm

If they know about the fake tongues, probably it would be stop. I’m not saying that Charismatic per se is wrong. I’m saying that most abusive practices (Tongue, Laying of hands, Protestant songs, sugar coated sermon) need to be anathemized.

 

[beng]

Elizabeth:

beng:

“These signs are necessary because they have to convert the unbelievers (which is why tongues would be usefull). Hardly the case nowadays where about 50% of the world are Christian.”

…and therefore 50% are not.

Beng, just because some people don’t agree with you doesn’t mean they can’t read. The bold red thing is a tad overdone now. You don’t have to have the last word on this, really.
Can you give it a miss; it’s hurting my eyes.
Well, I’m just trying to remind as much as I could.

We need to stop all this fake tongues, sugar coated prayer and sermon (ala Protestant), laying of hands etc.

Also, the scathing approach regarding Charismatics and Protestants doesn’t go down so well with some of us Protestant on the way to Catholic kinda charismatic people. It’s not always what you say but the way you say it. May be if you could just give it a little sugar-coating…

Sugar coating is dumb an unintelligible. The Catholic faith with the richness of tradition and intellect such as Thomas Aquinas, Agustinus, Anselm etc would look silly with sugar coating sermon, prayer.

 

[beng]

chosunhoon:

Numbers passage refers to Moses wishing that all people would be filled with the holy spirit, and that happens at Pentecost.

No, what Moses asked for had happened, the 70 elders got their spirits didn’t they?

But scripture does not say that gift is less necessary. Augustine is not the bible or the Church. In addition, 1 Cor 13:1 suggests there are ‘angelic tongues’, not only human tongues.

Do not think like a Protestant by belittling the earlier Christian. Much less St Augustine who is the greatest of the Early Father because his sheer of writings/sermons and teachings.

Think of it this way, I wouldn’t want to argue with Augustine who read the same scripture and come up with something differnt than my own understanding unless I have a pretty strong case.

But where in the Bible, or the Church authoritatively say the tongues would be less necessary now??

St Augustine nuff said.

The gifts include things like serving, prophesying, teaching, encouraing, contributing, giving, leadership, governing, showing mercy (Rom 12:6-8), administration, miracle working, healing, tongues (1 Cor 12:28), pastoring, works of service, and evangelizing (Eph 4:11-13). And all of these gifts exist to raise up the church into maturity (Eph 4:12-13)

And tongue would be the least of all the gifts correct?

Having said that, I don’t understand why the gift of tongues would be less necessary.

Even at start Paul also think that tongue is the least of all.

BUT NOW people seem to like this “least” give. Why? Because people could fake it and feel that they are gifted by the Holy Spirit. They could show it off more tangibly too.. For gift like Phrophecy, it’s hard to fake, because just by checking if the prophecy is true or not then one can be judged. Tongue is so flexible in term of faking it.

Which is why the gift of interpretation exists! (1 Cor 12:10, 1 Cor 14:5). In addition, lots of other gifts are abused, like all the clergy abuse… unfortunately…

RIGHT! That is why WE MUST INSIST on interpreter everytime there’s tongue in front of believer (heck, maybe we should insist on interpreter EVEN among non-believers)

It’s certainly true that he was smart and educated but a closer look at the passage reveals the following:

1 Cor 2:4-5 - “And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should NOT be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.”

It wasn’t his own human efforts (through persuasive human wisdom) that brought about conversions, it was God’s power: Demonstration of it. This appears to relate with congregational prophesying where some would repent and fear God (1 Cor 14:24-25). It also appears to relate with Mark 16:17-18.

And I guess one practical way to demonstrate it is by bringing people to Mass: The greatest miracle is heaven coming down on earth

Yes. That is too (wisdom from God). However it can’t be denied that Paul’s intellect play apart in the spreading of the gospel in the early Church.

Indeed, they probably had the gift of teaching, preaching, etc.

St. Paul’s words are very clear. It’s a command:

But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most excellent way. (1 Cor 12:31)

And the excellent way is explained throughout chapter 13 (in the context of love) and in the next chapter he says:

“Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.” (1 Cor 14:39)

The passage suggests some Corinthians may’ve been forbidding people from using the gift of tongues because it probably looks really bizarre. Yet he says to not forbid it.

The gift of prophecy does three things: It strengthens, encourages and comforts. (1 Cor 14:3) Similarly, tongues enables a believer to edify himself (1 Cor 14:4). If this gift is less necessary, then the believer has one less means of edifying himself.

In the beginning of the chapter St. Paul says:

“Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.” (1 Cor 14:1)

So if ‘eagerly desire spiritual gifts’ isn’t a command, then I guess ‘follow the way of love’ isn’t a command either.

I do not prohibit the gift of tongues. I too agree with Paul.

However, fake tongue must be prohibited, it should be anathemized. And 99% of tongues out there are fake.

 

[beng]

MIDGIE:

Beng says: “The Charismatic renewal is NOT a movement of God, and it is drawing people away from a richer faith life.”

The Pope and Bishops say it IS a movement of God.

It’s not De Fide.

Has this movement built up the Church in any way? I don’t have any knowledge of the Charismatic Movement other than from what I experienced at my childhood Church in Boston, MA, The Basilica of Our Lady of Perpetual Help (Mission Church.) Even though I had moved away from the Church, I always returned to visit. This beautiful Basilica was in a really run down neighborhood after the majority of Catholics had moved to the suburbs and it was falling into disrepair. Then one of the Priests there, Fr. McDonough, received the Gift of Healing. People then began attending the Church again in droves and they came from all areas of the country. They’d come by the busloads and would pack this huge Church till there was standing room only. I don’t know if it is still that way today because I’ve not been back in some time since I’ve moved out of the state. I was quite impressed when I was there to see the Life brought back into this Church single-handedly through the Priest blessed with the Gift of Healing. People prayed and sang in tongues at his services, which at first sounded like birds to me, but the look on their faces when they were praying and singing was a look of holiness. Their faces looked so angelic as they sang and prayed to God. They certainly didn’t look like they were drawn “away” from a deeper life in Christ, but they looked like they were in direct communion with Him.

I’d say the Charismatic Movement not only brought the Life of the Spirit back into this Church, but it also saved it from disrepair, etc., from the support it received from the Charismatics. I was so glad that not one Priest from this Church was exposed in Boston for pedophilia. I attended 12 years of parochial school at Mission Church and received all my Sacraments there, so was very happy to see God bless this Church as He did.

Is anyone here from Boston? If so, how is Fr. McDonough?

Maybe others here will add to how they’ve witnessed the Charismatic Movement build up the Churches in their areas?

God bless

Apply the test then.

If it is truly from God then it should pass the test.

 

[beng]

burnside:

I wouldn’t rubbish the Charismatic Movement,because the man who introduced me into it had not been at Mass for years when someone encouraged him to join.He became a regular at weekday Mass and Communion and says the Rosary
frequently.

God can bring the God out of the bad. David cheated and comitted adultery. Yet, we have Solomon.

However,i found it surprising when he asked me why
i didn’t just put my petitions directly to God rather than doing a
Novena to one or other of the saints.I could have asked him the same question.Why not forget the Rosary and go directly to God???

Aha!! A sign of Protestant flavor within Charismatic. Beware.

I realize that some Non-Charismatics don’t show that concern for
down and outs either,but the failing is more obvious when you are bursting forth with all that affection.I can remember one of the priests saying Mass in a rather small room at the back of the church with about forty people present.We were trying to go to communion when this woman passed out.While a couple of people tried to bring her round,the rest were having to walk round her to get to communion.In a couple of minutes she was back on her feet and hugging her first-aiders.What was it?A normal faint?Ecstasy?I tend to associate ecstasy with saints.She was
a nice woman,but i wouldn’t have described her as a saint.

Just a regular faint probably.

 

[beng]

snuffy:

Dear Beng:
I pray God does not judge you as harshly as you judge your fellow Catholics.

I put scriptural proof. Paul’s words judge those fake tongues themselves.

I wonder why Charismatic can’t see it? It’s so obvious in the scripture!

 

[OpusDei]

A careful reading of Acts will reveal the reality of ‘speaking in tongues’. This gift is in the HEARING, not the speaking; therefore ‘speaking’ in tongues should not sound like jibberish to ANYONE. It was in Babylon that people HEARD incoherent speech. Pentecost reversed Babylon and all who HEARD could understand. When someone speaks incoherently and those that are listening HEAR nonsense, it is just that…nonsense.

 

[beng]

Thomas2:

Beng -

Can I ask why you are so hostile towards Charismatics? The Church has given permission for this movement. That really should be enough for you. No one needs to prove anything to you. Nor should you be so angry about this. Is there something that happened to you at a Charismatic meeting or something? I just don’t get the level of anger and hostility. We’re all brothers and sisters here right? Or are you not a Catholic and come from some other back ground. I hope you can explain.

Peace and all good,

Thomas2

Hostile? Hardly. I’m fill with spirit to correct this erroneous and dangerous practices.

Nothing has happened to me during Charismatic meeting. Only the discomfort becuase these people are going way off what Paul taught.

 

[beng]

Thomas2:

Ya know,

This comment is part of the reason I don’t attend Charismatic stuff anymore:

“Many times we do not receive simply because we are not aware of what God wants to give us and how good it can be…as I answered before, gifts are not received due to the person being “holy”…like there was a time when I took a seminarian friend of mine for a charismatic prayer meeting and after the meeting he realised that the Lord had been speaking to him through visions for quite some time but he had ignored it,not being aware of it…And again, let me confirm, the true status of holiness of a person is the fruit of the Spirit being seen in his/her life…
thats why Jesus said you will judge the tree by its fruit…!”

Folks try to push certain gifts on folks and tend to put those down who don’t go for the same gifts or without realizing it tend to discount anything other than the hoped for “gift of tongues” that proves the Spirit’s operation to those in attendance. The Holy Spirit gives gifts to all people, not just those who attend Charismatic meetings and ask for them! Not everyone gets supernatural gifts such as tongues, prophecy, bilocation, etc…In fact, most folks get natural gifts, like the ability to be a great teacher, a good parent, a honest poilice officer, etc… Yes, it is easy to say that those who attend Cahrismatic meetings and such are looking for specific gifts of the Spirit, but just because the Spirit isn’t manifested in that way at that time in that person’s life doesn’t mean they haven’t gotten exactly what God wants them to have - perhaps more patience with others, or fortitude to get a sick friend through a trying time or perhaps a more charitable attitude towards one’s neighbor, etc. The most important thing at any Catholic worship service, whether that is Mass, Exposition, a retreat, Benediction or a Charismatic meeting, is the God be Glorified and all those in attendance become better Catholics.

Peace and all good,

Thomas2

 

[beng]

epiphania:

Looks like Ive offended someone…that was not the way I meant it…
what youre saying is very true…“gifts” are not restricted just to supernatural gifts and its in the discretion of the giver(the holy Spirit) to give as He seems fit…usually gifts are given as per what the person is called to do.
What I meant by the above post was many times by not being aware of what the Lord wants to give and what He wants to do through us,we may miss out a lot…like the seminarian I mentioned, its not like he didnt have the gift of visions…but he never got to use it due to his lack of knowledge of it…
and what is not treasured and used becomes suppressed right?
hope that helps…

No. If God gives it, then we would know it.

You’re reasoning make it looks like that the person who don’t have the gift is being lazy and not using his/her gift. Because of this mentality there are many abuses.

If I have the gift then God would let me know because it’s meant to be used.