Are Charismatics truly Catholic?

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OpusDei:
A careful reading of Acts will reveal the reality of ‘speaking in tongues’. This gift is in the HEARING, not the speaking; therefore ‘speaking’ in tongues should not sound like jibberish to ANYONE. It was in Babylon that people HEARD incoherent speech. Pentecost reversed Babylon and all who HEARD could understand. When someone speaks incoherently and those that are listening HEAR nonsense, it is just that…nonsense.
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I agree. However, charasmatics (at least on the Protestant side which I do have knowledge of, having been involved in it for 15 years) don’t base these gifts off the book of Acts. How could they, it’s obvious that the apostles in Acts spoke actual languages understood by those who spoke the language. It’s the opposite of the tower of Babel. And this is not what modern charasmatics are practicing.

They are basing these gifts, these charims, off two chapters in 1 Corinthians. They claim there are two “types” of tongues, one for the church and one for the self. The one for the church was like that of Pentecost, a real language to be spoken only if it could be interpreted. The second one, this “personal prayer language”, is taken from one verse in particular. The problem is the verse is taken out of context, as is the message Paul was expressing to the Corinthians and specifically to the Corinthians. Creating this personal prayer language does not follow with the rest of Paul’s instructions. This estatic speech was common among the non-christian religions of Corinth and Paul wanted to make sure that these influences stayed out of the early church.

As for tongues in church history? Origen, Chrysostom and Augustine all said tongues passed away. They do not surface in Christianity (either Catholic or Protestant) until the early 1900s.

I feel as I am repeating myself, I’ve gone through various points here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1050
 
Dave Young:
Is the charismatic movement an adaptation of protestantism? Did I miss something or is this a new post Vatican II phenomena? Of course, I know about the gifts of language in apostolic times. I just wonder if what often sounds like gibberish could be the same thing. :confused:
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The Charistmatic Movement is just Montanism revisited.

As far as the movement originating from Apostolic times…that’s a stretch. Granted, the Bible and the early Christians noted a gift of the Holy Spirit…known as “speaking in tongues.”

I would say the Charismatic Movement…or, as I call it – Neo-Montanism…was founded centuries and centuries later.

I do know that Paul preached…

"Tongues-speaking is only edifying in the Church if it is interpreted. “But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the Church.” First Corinthians 14:5, 27, 28

History shows that glossolalia (tongue speaking itself) did occur within the early Church…and I also do know the early fathers were incredibly divided. Chrysostom disapproved and Augustine was mixed…Ignatius believed in speaking in tongues, but believed also in its limited usage. The Montanist movement (which holds great similarities with the Charismatic Movement) of the late second century included prophetesses, speaking in tongues, etc… was declared heretical by 99% of the church (even though, Tertullian loved the movement)…it got so bad that excommunication became involved (Serapion, bishop of Antioch spoke out against it greatly). The Canon of Moratori (the oldest list of authorized New Testament books…written in Rome circa 170 AD) mentions Montanism among heresies and rejects its teachings and writings. Speaking in tongues was extremely rare within the church after this time.

The fact is…just as cancer has signs…so does this movement.

In conclusion…I believe it was Saint Epiphanius of Cyprus who wrote in “Panarion” a whole chapter on Montanism. He stated that Montanists receive the Bible in full… the Trinity…the resurrection of the dead…etc…but they mislead in their teachings on gifts.

The only reason the Charistmatic Movement is being allowed right now…is to attract Protestants to the faith.
 
The following is also a good read…

“Paul addresses the matter of ‘speaking in tongues’ as a possible problem in the church at Corinth. Although he acknowledges that the ability to speak in ‘various kinds of tongues’ and the ability to interpret these tongues are ‘spiritual gifts’ (1 Cor. 12:10), he is aware not all are to speak in tongues (1 Cor. 12:30), and advises his readers to seek ‘the higher gifts’ (1 Cor. 12:31). In 1 Corinthians 13, he makes it clear that he thinks of love as the greatest spiritual gift. Love is contrasted with speaking ‘in the tongues of men and of angels’ (1 Cor. 13:1); love endures, while tongues will cease (v. 8).”

“In 1 Corinthians 14, Paul gives a number of directions about the use of glossolalia. Speaking in tongues is not helpful to the community, he says, because it is incomprehensible (14:2). Only when there is interpretation is there edification (v. 5). When the community convenes, no more than three should speak in tongues, each in turn, and there must be an interpretation (v. 27). Paul feels that uncontrolled and uninterpreted speaking in tongues does not edify the community and that it gives outsiders the impression that believers are mad (v. 23). Yet, he allows this activity to take place, so long as it is done in orderly fashion and is accompanied by interpretation.”

“Acts 2 contains a narrative about the events of the first Pentecost after Easter. On that day, the apostles gathered together, and, after hearing a sound like wind and seeing tongues like fire, they began ‘to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance’ (Acts 2:4). The author of Acts goes on to list various nationalities of persons who heard the apostles speak, all hearing in their own languages. Although the story may suggest that the apostles spoke an incomprehensible language (v. 13), the truth is that they were speaking known foreign languages.”
 
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agname:
The Charistmatic Movement is just Montanism revisited.

As far as the movement originating from Apostolic times…that’s a stretch. Granted, the Bible and the early Christians noted a gift of the Holy Spirit…known as “speaking in tongues.”

I would say the Charismatic Movement…or, as I call it – Neo-Montanism…was founded centuries and centuries later.

I do know that Paul preached…

"Tongues-speaking is only edifying in the Church if it is interpreted. “But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the Church.” First Corinthians 14:5, 27, 28

History shows that glossolalia (tongue speaking itself) did occur within the early Church…and I also do know the early fathers were incredibly divided. Chrysostom disapproved and Augustine was mixed…Ignatius believed in speaking in tongues, but believed also in its limited usage. The Montanist movement (which holds great similarities with the Charismatic Movement) of the late second century included prophetesses, speaking in tongues, etc… was declared heretical by 99% of the church (even though, Tertullian loved the movement)…it got so bad that excommunication became involved (Serapion, bishop of Antioch spoke out against it greatly). The Canon of Moratori (the oldest list of authorized New Testament books…written in Rome circa 170 AD) mentions Montanism among heresies and rejects its teachings and writings. Speaking in tongues was extremely rare within the church after this time.

The fact is…just as cancer has signs…so does this movement.

In conclusion…I believe it was Saint Epiphanius of Cyprus who wrote in “Panarion” a whole chapter on Montanism. He stated that Montanists receive the Bible in full… the Trinity…the resurrection of the dead…etc…but they mislead in their teachings on gifts.
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Charismatic, or even Pentacostal (which is what Charismatic is to Protestantism) is not Montanist in a sense that they do not incorporated new public revelation. At least not that I know of.

Hardly any of them claim that they receive prophesy.
The only reason the Charistmatic Movement is being allowed right now…is to attract Protestants to the faith.
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I would think that it is used to attract energetic and dynamic young people who can only channel thier energy into tongue, waving hands, clapping, sugar coated sermon etc which is very superficial, instead of using that energy to learn the DEPTH of the Catholic faith (which needs studying, prayer etc. Harder things to do than waving hands etc but more effecious)
 
Dave Young:
Is the charismatic movement an adaptation of protestantism? Did I miss something or is this a new post Vatican II phenomena? Of course, I know about the gifts of language in apostolic times. I just wonder if what often sounds like gibberish could be the same thing. :confused:
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No, The Catholic charismatic movement is not a Protestant adaptation but a direct result of the Holy Spirit working through Vatican ll. It began to flower, post Vatican ll, circa 1967, in many places but most conspicuously with some priests and nuns at Notre Dame and spread across America from there and then around the world ( all Catholics receive the Holy Spirit, directly, at confirmation–it’s just that hundreds, if not thousands began ’ catching fire ’ or more correctly " catching The Fire " after Vatican ll ).

Ecumenism was the byproduct of this movement for the Holy Spirit had been working for decades in certain Protestant churches particularly the Pentacostals which trace their charismatic origin back to early 20th century Los Angeles. I beleive the outcome of this has been the ECT–Evangelicals and Catholics Together. Moreover, I believe the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity is hard at work to return all Christians to the Fullness of the Truth–our Holy Mother Church.

Regarding the nuts and bolts of the Charismatic Renewal, Paul tells us to simply ‘be careful’. If you are in a charismatic group and someone begins speaking in tongues there should always be a second person to ‘interpret’ what is being said. I am not charismatic but I have been to healing Masses and I can testify to the Power of the Holy Spirit. It is real. it is God. And it is working in the Catholic Church today.
 
Dave Young:
Is the charismatic movement an adaptation of protestantism? Did I miss something or is this a new post Vatican II phenomena? Of course, I know about the gifts of language in apostolic times. I just wonder if what often sounds like gibberish could be the same thing. :confused:
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Hello well I’m a Catholic and I find these things uncomfortable, so I don’t go to them, when the Apostles were in the upper room with Mary they were afraid for their lives.
When the Holy Spirit came upon them they turned from frightened men into brave preachers, and they taught to many differen’t languages and each understood in their own language.
That is the power of the Holy Spirit, and Mary appears all over the world and can speak any language, because she is full of the Holy Spirit, infact I think she has been called the bride of the Holy Spirit.
Don’t get me wrong, if thats what people want to do then thats fine, it’s not for me, I’ve never been a public prayer, apart from Mass, and there is no more powerful prayer than the Mass.
God Bless and thanks for listening.
Stephen:D
 
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beng:
Find me the document.

I don’t think Charismatic is recognized or approved or anything. It’s just a movement. There are a lot of important problem. The Church wouldn’t bother to recognized every movement.

Charismatic is a fad. It’ll die down.
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JPII has good things to say about a dying movement.
Here is a link:

zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=54481

evangelization and unity with the help of the Holy Spirit
 
Amen Brother :http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif
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SPOKENWORD:
The best kept secret in the catholic church are Life in the Spirit seminars. Notice its very rare that it is spoken about on the pulpit. The best thing in my oppinion that happened in the RCC was the charasmatic movement. Even the Pope has acknowleged that fact. People dont understand it and because of it the condem it. Those that are involved in the movement in my oppinion are much more sensitive to what the Holy Spirit is saying. Try it you might be touched and be more open to the Spirit and develop a closer relationship with our Lord. 👍
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I was confirmed at age 10 or 12. A cradle catholic. It has only been 18 years since I made my Life in the Spirit Seminar. The last 18 years out of my 60 years have brought me closer to Jesus and the workings of the HS than any other years.

I have participated in at least 30 or 40 LIS Seminars and have seen many wonderful life changing events in the lives of the people who attended. Many of them are still chrismatic catholic and universal. Many have also walked another path and are strong influences in the catholic church.

A “New Springtime” a new outpouring of the HS is happening and will grow.
 
Hi There:

I am sure many of you are aware that the Charismatic movenent did not originate within the RCC. The first modern RC “Charismatics” were introduced to the experience of the “Baptism The Holy Spirit” by Charismatic Anglicans or Lutherans I dont remember which .

To non- RC Charismatics like myself the RCC-Ch’s seem real enough. They do raise their hands and clap and many speak in tongues, we would probably feel “at home” at a “healing” or Charismatic RC mass or prayer group… but they have distinctions that clearly identify them. A high regard for the Eucharist, Marian devotion, loyalty to the Holy Father and the magisterium of the RC Church.

Just what makes someone “truly” RC if not those things?

Blessings.
 
Charismatic means charism or simply gift from the Holy Spirit. The movement is simply using the gifts that they have received to awaken the Spirit of God in their lives. In 1Cor 12:7, Paul taught “to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good” and in Eph 4:11-12 The gifts are "for the equipment of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for building up the body of Christ, which is the church. So there you are I hope this helps.
 
Walkbyfaith said:
Charismatic means charism or simply gift from the Holy Spirit. The movement is simply using the gifts that they have received to awaken the Spirit of God in their lives. In 1Cor 12:7, Paul taught “to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good” and in Eph 4:11-12 The gifts are "for the equipment of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for building up the body of Christ, which is the church. So there you are I hope this helps.
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Really? then why they have tongue session without interpretation (and with many people) among believers? That’s a direct violation from the Bible
 
On my journey to Rome I passed through Pentecostal and Charismatic churches. In my experience of this movement I had to suspend my objectivity to such an extent that I had to move on. For most of them it seemed to be more about who had the best tongue and how quckly they could conjur up the Holy Ghost.

A wise and Holy man told me that one way of knowing if what someone was saying was from God was to ask the follwing:

Did it have depth?
Did it have clarity?
Did it have simplicity?

In my experience nothing I heard had any of the above.

Yours in His service

Tom Drummond
 
The Catholic Church does believe in speaking in tongues and does believe it is a gift from the Holy Spirit and has well documented this belief in its writings (and laying on of hands). Where can you find a Catholic book that talks about this subject? Almost anywhere, it’s called the Holy Bible. The Catholics wrote it, decided on the canon and declared it to the world to be inspired by God. So the Catholic Church has well documented its firm belief in speaking in tongues which will continue for all time.

If we have good or bad things to say about the charismatic movement that is OK. We are all allowed to have our opinions, the Catholic Church encourages us in free will.

Now the RCC in particular has the ‘Chair of St. Peter’ (authority), Tradition, and the magisterium. If our Church says the charismatic movement is good or if it says it is bad, we must have Faith in what God established to guide us and of which He is present in, our Catholic Church, His body. Our Church has been, is currently, and will be investigating the charismatic movement. Based on the current information the Church has said the movement is good and from what I have seen of it – which is very limited – it is good. If the movement turns out to be a fad or is actually wrong the Church will declare it bad. So far no ‘ex-cathedra’ statement has been made on it and non may ever be. Another thing to remember is that the Church moves slowly, sometimes very slowly. This is good and helps His Church to make the correct decisions.

I have never been to a ‘speaking in tongue’ service in person. I will shortly as my charismatic relatives have invited me to one of their Pentecostal services which I look forward to. Though as a Christian/Catholic I do not intend to participate in it to help validate it or anything else. If I have heard someone speaking in tongue then I would not have known it anyway since they would have been speaking in my language after all, would they not? I have never been next to a foreign speaking person that said, “Hey, that guy just spoke to me perfectly in my own language did you hear that!” Of course I would have known it was in tongue since I would have replied, “No, he/she spoke in perfect English!”

I was watching a female TV preacher on TBN (before I deleted the channel from my TV menu due to false teachings like subordinationism, etc…) dancing barefoot around the stage on prayer stoles yelling and shouting unintelligible gibberish, wipeing her sweat the stoles, and saleing the stoles at like a thousand bucks a towel, waving her arms, falling on the stage and in the audeince, etc… I asked my wife if she knew what the preacher was doing and she told me the preacher was ‘supposed’ to be speaking in tongue? My wife grew up half Pentecostal and half ‘ordinary’ Baptist. I asked her if she understood this preacher or any other person speaking in tongue’s during her life and she said “no”. She didn’t know anybody that ‘actually’ understood the language ever spoken though some did interpret it without actually understanding the language?

So based on the Holy Scripture the Catholic Church wrote I personally believe that it is only speaking in tongue if all present hear it in their own language. I admit, I do not know what the Church teaches on this subject though and it is a very interesting subject which I hope to learn more about.

Here are some verses that support my own view:

Acts 2:4-8 “…they were all filled with the holy Spirit and began to speak in different tongues, as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim… Then how does each of us hear them in his own native language?”

1 Cor 14:2-11 “For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit…6 Now, brothers, if I should come to you speaking in tongues, what good will I do you if I do not speak to you by way of revelation, or knowledge, or prophecy, or instruction? 7 Likewise, if inanimate things that produce sound, such as flute or harp, do not give out the tones distinctly, how will what is being played on flute or harp be recognized? 8 And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? 9 Similarly, if you, because of speaking in tongues, do not utter intelligible speech, how will anyone know what is being said? For you will be talking to the air. 10 It happens that there are many different languages in the world, and none is meaningless; 11 but if I do not know the meaning of a language, I shall be a foreigner to one who speaks it, and one who speaks it a foreigner to me.”

A prisoner of Christ
 
All I can say of this personally is that I know of many people who left the Church in pursuit of ever greater ‘highs’ of the charismatic kind…

sam
 
Could someone please tell me if Charismatics in their neck of the woods believe in Salvation and tend to look down on, or totally reject the Catholic views on Mary and the saints, as well as the sacraments (especially the Eucharistic Celebration). I am from Kenya, and generally, one tends to find that this is the trend. In fact, for some, since the evangelical and pentecostal churches are more attractive, they would tend to become charismatic so that they can still lay claim to their status as Catholics but with Protestant views.

I don’t have a problem with the Charismatic movement in general, especially since the Church allows for its existence. However, where I am from, I think ignorance has played a large role in making this movement appear very ‘un-Catholic’ and very protestant. There are some parishes where they try to influence the liturgy and all related activities. The prayers take too long; bless you if the priest celebrating the mass is a Charismatic - the sermon will take hours (no joke) before the Offertory.

I guess we need to pray for this movement. It must be a good thing since the Church acknowledges it, but in this day and age, it is also a means away from the Church. Most good things have a price. Let us pray for the movement. 🙂
 
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bkisia:
Could someone please tell me if Charismatics in their neck of the woods believe in Salvation and tend to look down on, or totally reject the Catholic views on Mary and the saints, as well as the sacraments (especially the Eucharistic Celebration) 🙂
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You can do this and STILL be Catholic???

Wake me up from my nightmare!!!
 
I thought this article would help with understanding if
Charismatics are truly Catholic! Enjoy

**ZENIT - The World Seen From Rome **

**Code: ZE04061022

****Date: 2004-06-10

****Charismatics Tell of Effects of the Holy Spirit (Part 1)

****Members Testify to a Life-Changing Encounter

**ROME, JUNE 10, 2004 (Zenit.org).- Profound friendship with Jesus Christ and a sure and strong sense of conversion are just two of the effects of the Holy Spirit, say charismatic renewal leaders.

The leaders of the International Catholic Charismatic Renewal recently shared with ZENIT their personal experience of Pentecost. The ICCRS, headquartered in Vatican City, provides service, communication and linkage to this ecclesial reality whose spirituality is followed by more than 100 million Catholics.

At the vigil of Pentecost in St. Peter’s Basilica, on May 29, John Paul II sent special greetings to the Rinnovamento nello Spirito Santo, an Italian branch of the expression of Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

The Pope said that “thanks to the charismatic movement, many Christians, men and women, youths and adults, have rediscovered Pentecost as a living and present reality in their daily life.”

ICCRS leaders readily testify to the workings of the Spirit.

Allan Panozza, president of ICCRS, recalls Matthew 3:11 – “He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire” – and says, “I have always loved my Catholic faith.”

“But when I received a new outpouring of the Holy Spirit in 1978 in what is described within Catholic Charismatic Renewal as the ‘baptism in the Holy Spirit’ – I experienced that fire,” Panozza said. “And yet it was so simple: my prayer from deep within which said to God ‘I give you my life.’”

“I began to experience profound changes within myself,” recalled Panozza, an Australian. “I found myself being led to a deeper love and devotion to the Blessed Eucharist. I experienced a hunger to know more about the Word of God, and avidly read and studied the Scriptures.”

Panozza also found himself “letting go of long-held habits of impressing my own attitudes and beliefs onto other people. I began to see myself more in the light of being loved by Almighty God, and that love became mine to share.”

“But by far the greatest change in my life was to know the reality that Jesus is my friend,” the ICCRS president said. “Yes, he is my protector, he is my Savior; indeed, increasingly I know him to be the Lord of my life. But above all else – he is my friend! I know that he will never desert me nor disown me, and that my eternal destiny is securely held in his hands.”

“This was the sublime grace given me by the Holy Spirit, and that grace remains with me daily,” Panozza said. “Through the intercession of Mary I am empowered as she was to prayerfully surrender my life to God, and to be used in service by him in the ways he chooses.”

Oreste Pesare, director of the ICCRS office in the Vatican, recalled how “one day, 20 years ago, when nobody could help me, I cried to the Lord. I was then an agnostic. And he answered me; he liberated me ‘miraculously’ and instantly from what would have harmed my life forever.”

“I felt loved as I had never felt before, as I needed to feel for so many years … and I gave him my life,” Pesare said. “Since then, the Love of God, the Holy Spirit, has led my step by step on the paths of my history until he transformed an unbeliever – as I was – into a believer.”

“Today I can witness that the Holy Spirit is my point of reference, refuge in difficulties, fortitude in my commitment. He is alive, converses with me, counsels me, guides me. He is my God and I am immensely grateful to him,” Pesare said.

Nicholas Chia, representative of Asia in ICCRS, said that “in a world where money, power and sex are symbols of success, to live my Christian life is not easy.”

“God’s Holy Spirit is my lifeline to survive in this secular world, where there is no peace, no joy, no true happiness,” he said.

“He is my strength when I am weak, he is the treasure that I seek, he is my friend when I am lonely,” said Chia.

“Living one’s faith is not the fruit of one’s own efforts,” Oreste Pesare said, “but rather a grace that we receive through a continual outpouring of the Holy Spirit – when we pray, especially with our brothers and sisters; when we receive the sacraments. This is what happened in Jerusalem that day” of Pentecost.

The Spirit “is the love that every man and all of creation need to live,” Pesare continued. “To receive the Holy Spirit consciously, freely in one’s life, enables you to experience the passage from death to life. Anyone with a searching heart desires this passage and intuits its importance in one’s life.”

[Friday: The drive to evangelize]
 
I think that the question asked at the beginning of this thread is extremely accurate. After reading all this I have come to the conclusion that Charismatic Chatholics have started their own religion.:eek:
 
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