Are couples so selfish these days that they won't have kids

[Kaninchen]

Pope Paul addressed it in Humanae Vitae
ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/P6HUMANA.HTM

Pope John Paul II addressed it in his address on Responsible Parenthood

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP840801.htm

I’m sorry but I’m still not getting it (perhaps, being Jewish, I don’t have the ‘language’ of Catholicism, that is reflective of Catholic precepts that believers ‘take as read’, so it goes over my head) - if a couple jointly and of their own individual volitions decide not to have children (or further children) to whom are they being ‘selfish’?

 

[Kaninchen]

Well I would say people have kids for selfish reasons much of the time…just as people who CHOSE not to have kids usually have selfish reasons as well. Really very few people probably have any room to call others selfish. Most of us are pretty selfish in one way or another.

Yes but doesn’t ‘selfishness’ involve being ‘selfish’ towards some other person or persons?

 

[Kaninchen]

I think someone mentioned a few, but I would say if people say it will cut into their “free” time (won’t be able to play golf as much or “go out”), or say they can’t afford it (but yet spend lots of money on material things they don’t need). I would say these would count as selfish reasons.

SD

Well, those are reasons not to have children that could be described as ‘selfish’ if there were some person being denied something by the choice - thus if I’d told my husband I didn’t want children because it would cut into my shopping-time, that might be described as me being ‘selfish’ towards him. However, if he’d not wanted to have children either, because it’d cut into his going to sports matches time, to whom would we be being ‘selfish’?

 

[SD_Catholic]

Well, those are reasons not to have children that could be described as ‘selfish’ if there were some person being denied something by the choice - thus if I’d told my husband I didn’t want children because it would cut into my shopping-time, that might be described as me being ‘selfish’ towards him. However, if he’d not wanted to have children either, because it’d cut into his going to sports matches time, to whom would we be being ‘selfish’?

I would say mainly to the future generation of God’s children, but being Catholic perhaps it is more of a “thing” than to non-Catholics.

SD

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

I would say mainly to the future generation of God’s children, but being Catholic perhaps it is more of a “thing” than to non-Catholics.

SD

**I think they would be being selfish to God Himself. He created our sexuality/fertility/marriage and commanded us to be fruitful and multiply. It is perfectly ok for a single person to decide they are not called to the vocation of marriage/parenthood. But to get married and then deny the fruits of that marriage is where the selfishness comes in. It is basically telling God that His design is flawed so you’d rather do it your way.

Can you imagine getting to those Pearly Gates and having God Himself ask you

GODin a great booming voice) “SO, tell me why you decided to enjoy marital sex but frustrated all of my attempts to bless you with a child?”

You: I really really liked playing golf every weekend

or… I didn’t want to get fat

I wanted to be a "contributing member of society i.e “working”

I didn’t want to have my wife give all of the attention to a child that she should be giving to me

etc etc etc…

Now, within a marriage, couples are allowed to decide when and how to have their children. If they make a decision between themselves and God that they need to postpone conceiving then NFP is the only morally licit means of achieving this. It is the only method of child spacing that respects that God is ultimately in control.**

 

[Calliso]

I have a feeling the last thing God will be concerned about is whether or not ihad children or not. I think he may even thank me for not having them ahah. Ok all joking aside I just have serious doubts that the whole be fruitful and multiply thing is an actually command that applies to all married couples. But that is jsut me…

 

[Island_Oak]

I have been thinking lately of how blessed me and my wife are wih our 2 sons and some times it makes me ponder the question of people who we know who won’t have childern at all and this makes me sad for them because I don’t think they undertand what they are missing out on.

Lifestyle choices~as in marriage, family, religious practice~are so deeply personal to each individual, why do you assume that anyone who approaches these issues differently than you do has to explain, justify or defend their choice?

No one is obligated to marry or procreate. For some it would be a disasterous mistake. Far too many people fall into one or both without the serious consideration due such a monumental commitment and are NOT happy or successful at either. Many may never go down that path and live thoroughly, if differently, enriched lives from yours.

Perhaps the answer is to get out and meet folks embracing a variety of lifestyle approaches so you can appreciate how such people can enrich **your **life and society and spare yourself the exercise of pitying and/or judging them.

 

[CradleCath]

QUOTE=shannyk;4427133]

He said couples who won’t not people who are unable. Big difference. There was nothing uncharitable in the question:shrug: Perhaps if people read before they get offended…I don’t think he was referring at all to couples who are infertile as that is something beyond anyone’s control.

I agree. There was nothing insulting of insensitive in the OP’s post. He spoke of people who don’t want children. And, yes, I agree…they don’t know about the fullness that children bring into their parents lives.

Our three boys were totally involved in sports & our girl…well, she played softball & ran track…usually spent more time trying to keep her hair in order while doing so. She wasn’t the serious athlete that our boys were, but very active in the high school choir. Two of our boys attended college on Athletic scholarships & their interests became ours. I cannot tell you how many hours my husband & I spent sitting on bleachers & LOVED every minute of it. Our sons love of sports & our daughters love of music introduced us to some of the best friends we’ve ever had.
And, when they were little…oh my, the eyes starry with visions of Santa, watching each one of them develop into persons with their own personalities & the love they had & have for each other is a beautiful thing. People who don’t WANT children, yes I believe they are very self-centered & they don’t realize the joy that children would bring to that “self”.

Yes I do think this is a problem in the world we live in now. I actually started a thread along these line awhile ago about friends of mine who won’t (read WON’T) have children because they feel them too expensive, (though they make salaries most people dream of), and too much of a sacrifice for them in their personal lives, that they’d have to give up the things they enjoy.

Do you think the devaluing of children among Catholics started with the tremendous repudiation of Humana Vitae by some of our own clergy (aka Charlie Curran et al). I didn’t agree with our pope in the beginning about ABC, but followed the his law. How glad I am that I did. I loved his words from that encyclical:

**“Children are really the supreme gift of marriage and contribute very substantially to the welfare of their parents.”**8

How prophetic he was about the future of a world where all personal self-mastery in the area of marital sex was abandoned in lieu of a pill. It is harmful to marriage, has led to promiscuity & living together without the benefit of marriage (why not, no need to worry about pregnancy), an increase in adultery & finally the horror of abortion when the birth control doesn’t “work”.

 

[CradleCath]

Well I would say people have kids for selfish reasons much of the time**…just as people who CHOSE not to have kids usually have selfish reasons as well. **Really very few people probably have any room to call others selfish. Most of us are pretty selfish in one way or another.

Perhaps you’re right that selfishness plays into the wanting of children, too. I’m not sure about that. I came from a family of five children, my husband has 7 brothers & sisters. Life without children just never occured to us, I guess. To be a family included kids in our minds. I wanted 6 children, but I guess God figured that 4 was enough. (Plus we lost one born prematurely). BTW., the OP was not calling others selfish. He asked a question. Maybe some of you who choose not to have children can tell us why you made this choice. No one is condemning anyone… It’s just hard for some of us to understand the reasoning behind the choice.

 

[Just_wondering]

I don’t want children!

(Oooh, does this work for husbands, too?!) I don’t want a husband!

 

[CradleCath]

Well, those are reasons not to have children that could be described as ‘selfish’ if there were some person being denied something by the choice - thus if I’d told my husband I didn’t want children because it would cut into my shopping-time, that might be described as me being ‘selfish’ towards him. However, if he’d not wanted to have children either, because it’d cut into his going to sports matches time, to whom would we be being ‘selfish’?

Perhaps to your community & to the world. We need good Catholic parents who will raise children to be responsible citizens, devout Catholics & just plain good & kind people. Someone must change the way this world if heading.

 

[noclevername]

Maybe some of you who choose not to have children can tell us why you made this choice. No one is condemning anyone… It’s just hard for some of us to understand the reasoning behind the choice.

I was married 10+ years and chose not to have children. The reason I didn’t want kids is because my husband and I could not live on just his income and I did not want to put my kids in daycare and have someone else raise my child. I’m not saying day care is a bad thing, it’s a total necessity at times like when my best friend’s husband died and she had to work and put her kid in day care. However, I had decided that when/if I had kids that I want to raise them and I didn’t want them to spend eight or nine hours with someone else. So that might be a little selfish but so what.

However I am dating a wonderful man now and we have talked about marriage and kids. Since he and I are both older, we will probably have them pretty quickly after we get married and now I am ready and we both have enough money to be able to let me stay home and do the job of “mom”.

 

[David_Balmer]

I agree. There was nothing insulting of insensitive in the OP’s post. He spoke of people who don’t want children. And, yes, I agree…they don’t know about the fullness that children bring into their parents lives.

Our three boys were totally involved in sports & our girl…well, she played softball & ran track…usually spent more time trying to keep her hair in order while doing so. She wasn’t the serious athlete that our boys were, but very active in the high school choir. Two of our boys attended college on Athletic scholarships & their interests became ours. I cannot tell you how many hours my husband & I spent sitting on bleachers & LOVED every minute of it. Our sons love of sports & our daughters love of music introduced us to some of the best friends we’ve ever had.
And, when they were little…oh my, the eyes starry with visions of Santa, watching each one of them develop into persons with their own personalities & the love they had & have for each other is a beautiful thing. People who don’t WANT children, yes I believe they are very self-centered & they don’t realize the joy that children would bring to that “self”.

Do you think the devaluing of children among Catholics started with the tremendous repudiation of Humana Vitae by some of our own clergy (aka Charlie Curran et al). I didn’t agree with our pope in the beginning about ABC, but followed the his law. How glad I am that I did. I loved his words from that encyclical:

**“Children are really the supreme gift of marriage and contribute very substantially to the welfare of their parents.”**8

How prophetic he was about the future of a world where all personal self-mastery in the area of marital sex was abandoned in lieu of a pill. It is harmful to marriage, has led to promiscuity & living together without the benefit of marriage (why not, no need to worry about pregnancy), an increase in adultery & finally the horror of abortion when the birth control doesn’t “work”.

You took the words right out of my mouth. You described what my wife and myself are expieriancing at this time in our lives, we feel blessed to have childeren and pray that other couples who have the ability to have children get to experiance the same thing we are. Like I tell everyone it’s the hardest job I have ever had, but I wouldn’t trade it for anything.

 

[SD_Catholic]

I think they would be being selfish to God Himself. .

This was my first thought

SD

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

I was married 10+ years and chose not to have children. The reason I didn’t want kids is because my husband and I could not live on just his income and I did not want to put my kids in daycare and have someone else raise my child. I’m not saying day care is a bad thing, it’s a total necessity at times like when my best friend’s husband died and she had to work and put her kid in day care. However, I had decided that when/if I had kids that I want to raise them and I didn’t want them to spend eight or nine hours with someone else. So that might be a little selfish but so what.

**I don’t think this is the type of situation the OP was referring to… at least that’s not what I think of as selfish. That decision was one based on what you thought was best for your family, not for you. Some people may make the same decision with selfish motives, but it doesn’t sound like you did. That is why we are supposed to discern our readiness for children. Medical issues, financial issues, certain life issues…all can be valid reasons to postpone having children. That decision is between the spouses and God…it is no one else’s business.
**
However I am dating a wonderful man now and we have talked about marriage and kids. Since he and I are both older, we will probably have them pretty quickly after we get married and now I am ready and we both have enough money to be able to let me stay home and do the job of “mom”.

And that may have been God’s plan all along:shrug:

I think the OP is specifically referring to couples who’s motives for not wanting children are very obviously selfish. Those couples who value things over people, money over love, the world over God.

 

[shannyk]

Yeah, thanks, I did read his post. Some people assume that 1) just because a couple does not have children that they must be selfish and do not want them for that reason (often without ever asking about the situation that led to the childlessness), 2) that because a couple does not have children they must be contracepting to avoid them- again, assumption of selfishness, and 3) that if a couple is infertile they must advertise this fact to avoid being thought of badly by people such as the OP. There’s also the fact that many of us who cannot have children tell ourselves that we’re okay without them, that our lives are good, look at all the things we wouldn’t be able to do if we had the kids- mainly to keep ourselves calm and sane because if we dwelt on our grief and the unfairness of it all, we might not be able to function.

So thanks for the lecture, but I’m not buying it. Too many people look at small families and childless couples and make cruel snap judgments without bothering to learn WHY. It’s the flipside of the judgments made about large families. Seems if you’re a married adult and you don’t have exactly two children, something is assumed to be seriously wrong with your mental state.

I don’t disagree that people can make harsh and rash judgments without knowing all the facts, but that has nothing to do with the OP’s question, as he himself clarified.

It’s often assumed that I am divorced when I tote my 3 kids around Church and school and parish activities, an assumption which I don’t appreciate at all since I’m in fact widowed. People assume far too much.

People should not assume that a married couple without children is selfish either, that is clearly wrong and frankly very uncharitable.

However, the question is about people, married couples, who WON’T, as in people who refuse to or even refuse to consider it. I do believe that it is rampant these days and probably has been ever since the dawn of legalized contraception. Though in recent years I think from what I have seen and people I know it’s gotten worse. It’s not about assumptions, it’s about people who readily and proudly claim they won’t have children because of x,y,z reasons, yes selfish reasons.

 

[CradleCath]

[You took the words right out of my mouth. You described what my wife and myself are expieriancing at this time in our lives, we feel blessed to have childeren and pray that other couples who have the ability to have children get to experiance the same thing we are. ** Like I tell everyone it’s the hardest job I have ever had,

but I wouldn’t trade it for anything.

That is the TRUTH. I own a small business, got into it when our youngest was 12 yrs. old & our oldest was leaving for college. We needed the money, otherwise I would have been happy being a housewife, Mother & Grandmother…all of my life. It IS the most challenging, most rewarding career of all. And it sure takes a lot of wisdom & prayer. Running a business is a piece of cake compared to creating a family.

 

[CradleCath]

I was married 10+ years and chose not to have children. The reason I didn’t want kids is because my husband and I could not live on just his income and I did not want to put my kids in daycare and have someone else raise my child. I’m not saying day care is a bad thing, it’s a total necessity at times like when my best friend’s husband died and she had to work and put her kid in day care. However, I had decided that when/if I had kids that I want to raise them and I didn’t want them to spend eight or nine hours with someone else. So that might be a little selfish but so what.

However I am dating a wonderful man now and we have talked about marriage and kids. Since he and I are both older, we will probably have them pretty quickly after we get married and now I am ready and we both have enough money to be able to let me stay home and do the job of “mom”.

Thank you for answering my question. Day care was not a choice for me. My children were born in the 60’s & there were no day care centers, plus we didn’t have family nearby. I also think that the economy was better then, though we did without luxuries (a second car, vacations, a new home, etc.) in order for me to be a full-time Mother. I wouldn’t trade those years for anything. I hope that you can have this experience, too
BTW., your choice was not selfish, but based on the good of the family. It sounds as if it’s not too late for you, anyway.

 

[Calliso]

Perhaps you’re right that selfishness plays into the wanting of children, too. I’m not sure about that. I came from a family of five children, my husband has 7 brothers & sisters. Life without children just never occured to us, I guess. To be a family included kids in our minds. I wanted 6 children, but I guess God figured that 4 was enough. (Plus we lost one born prematurely). BTW., the OP was not calling others selfish. He asked a question. Maybe some of you who choose not to have children can tell us why you made this choice. No one is condemning anyone… It’s just hard for some of us to understand the reasoning behind the choice.

I can understand why you donlt get it. I mean I donlt get sometimes why people want kids you know? But I have many reasons. Such as the fact that I donlt think I would make a good parent. Not to mention I enjoy my free time and most importantly my quiet time! It’s like that new blueray commerical…how it;s all like you can be as loud as you want! and shows the little kid squirming and gigggling on his mothers lap. See I would not find that entertaining at all. Among other things people mentioned doing with there children or their children doing…I donlt think I would find that entertaining as well. Things like not having to get up in the middle of the night because the baby is crying or changing diapers would be another reason. Seeing even less of my husband cause he would have to work even more then he already does. Not to mention I sure as you know what donlt want to go through birth…or really pregnancy…I like to avoid extremely painful things as much as possible. Also I have driving fears I can drive short distances…but what if my kids needed taking to a friends house or the doctors?

Also I do get the urge to have kids…quite a bit… But I am sure it is purely biological…because it comes and goes depending on the time of month. My hubby jokes that when I hit 30 I am going to go baby crazy…and I told him I hope you tell me no if I tell you I want a baby.

 

[mark_a]

I have been thinking lately of how blessed me and my wife are wih our 2 sons and some times it makes me ponder the question of people who we know who won’t have childern at all and this makes me sad for them because I don’t think they undertand what they are missing out on.

I presume there was no intention to insult folks who are childless against their own desires.

So I will answer this question in the spirit in which I believe it was asked.

Yes, I believe selfishness is the biggest reason fertile married couples don’t have kids. But this selfishness isn’t a symptom of parents who would deprive their children for their own sake, but spouses who deprive their mate of themselves for their own sake.

In this day of disposable everything, including marriages, these spouses want to limit their own exposure to the pain that comes with a disposable marriage.