Are dissenting Catholic views based on reason or emotion?

[Thoughtful]

Absolutely. I believe very strongly that God has primary authority. And if I earnestly believe that God’s authority and the Church’s authority don’t match, then my obedience is to God. Of course, traditional Catholicism will say that contradiction isn’t possible - I’m not convinced of that - yet. And of course I’m willing to defer on the minor issues - I’ve even deferred on some pretty major issues in the past, but I need to be convinced. Some might call that pride, I call it responsibility!!

Nothing wrong with needing to be convinced! I think it’s **essential **to know what and why we believe. On the other hand, I think if one disagrees they should have some pretty good and reliable reasons to rely on other than “emotion.” In my opinion, I think it becomes pride when we choose to ignore good and sound reasoning. (Not saying that’s the case with you, just a general statement. )

I see that you’re a new member like myself. There are many, many threads on infallibility, the Church’s authority, etc. on the forums. I hope you get a chance to check them out!

I have a feeling that we agree on more than what we disagree on.

And yes, I’ve done Eucharistic Adoration. Lots and lots. You’d be surprised just how Catholic a non-Catholic I am! I’m at Mass more often than the majority of my Catholic friends!

:blessyou:

 

[jmcrae]

Yes I see your definition is true about rules but one reason I left was a person was standing there telling me I HAD to pick up the missal and follow along. This person has a hard time accepting any changes in her life. dessert

Yes - that’s called “pharasaism” it’s not called “dissent.”

“Dissent” is when you break an actual rule.

“Pharasaism” is when you invent your own rules and then try to make other people follow them.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I think much of it is emotional. For these reasons:

1. 
   *]A key point of Catholicsm is obedience. The Church teaches us, and we have an obligation to accept her teachings. If we cannot accept a teaching, we should pray for grace, not argue against it. If we will not accept it, we should look elsewhere.
   
   *]The Magisterium is invested in the Bishops – not in the laity. For us to advance positions contrary to the Bishops in matters where we must believe is not logically consistent with the faith.
   
   *]There is a strong dose of hubris in many such dissents – “I have to follow my consciene.” The Church teaches one must follow one’s informed conscience – that is, follow the teachings of the Church in moral matters and interpret problems in that light.
   
   *]There is a spirit of rebellion running through many such threads – a sort of “The Church is wrong, many Catholics agree with me, and I’m going to change the Church.” As I often point out, God is not an elected official. We can’t vote Him out of office if we don’t like the way He runs His universe.
   
   *]There is considerable self-interest in much rebellion. Hang around a few abortion threads and you’ll see the defenders of abortion say, “I have a friend . . .” This must be the sister of the famous friend all Army doctors know – “Doc, I’ve got a friend, and I – I mean he – has this problem.”

 

[dessert]

Exactly, # 3 standing back from a situation and taking a good look at it is why I am going to another Catholic Church. I can’t buck the system as it is so I remove myself for the sake of my own morality and rethink how I might interpret the problem. I was getting caught into the middle and losing sight of what the Church does teach. dessert

 

[Thoughtful]

I think much of it is emotional. For these reasons:

1. 
   *]A key point of Catholicsm is obedience. The Church teaches us, and we have an obligation to accept her teachings. If we cannot accept a teaching, we should pray for grace, not argue against it. If we will not accept it, we should look elsewhere.

1. 
   I agree with all your points.
   
   I just don’t understand, if someone doesn’t accept the Church’s authority on faith and morals - or parts thereof - why would they want to stick around? What compels them to stay? I ask that with all sincerity. Maybe I’m reading the wrong threads. I’ve never seen a good, sound, logical argument with good resources to back up disobedience.
   
   A few of the posters have mentioned obedience and will, and I think a better question would be…
   
   What motivates a Catholic to be disobedient to the Church’s teaching - emotion or reason?
   
   Thoughts anyone?

 

[vern_humphrey]

I agree with all your points.

I just don’t understand, if someone doesn’t accept the Church’s authority on faith and morals - or parts thereof - why would they want to stick around? What compels them to stay? I ask that with all sincerity. Maybe I’m reading the wrong threads. I’ve never seen a good, sound, logical argument with good resources to back up disobedience.

A few of the posters have mentioned obedience and will, and I think a better question would be…

What motivates a Catholic to be disobedient to the Church’s teaching - emotion or reason?

Thoughts anyone?

I think to the extent there is a reason we can articulate, it is overweening pride. A demand that things be done my way – regardless of what the Bible, Tradition and the Magisterium say. It is like saying, “The universe revolves around me. And it has to revolve in the direction I want it to revolve.”

Consider the question of ordaining women. Regardless of what any of us would prefer, the Church has spoken. John Paul the Great has said the Church does not have the power to ordain women, and this is to be held definitively by all the faithful.

Yet you keep running across the same story – Ms. Soandso has finally become a priest! Isn’t it wonderful!!

When we read the story it follows the same pattern of many previous stories. Ms. Soandso was active in the Catholic Church (perhaps even a nun) but always had a “calling” to be a priest. Frustrated by that mean 'ol hidebound Catholic Church, she left, joined the Episcopal, Lutheran, etc., church and now she’s a priest!!

Now step back and look at this closely. Is Ms. Soandso a person we should have ever ordained – regardless of sex? What would she do if she had another dispute with Catholic doctrine? Leave and take her flock with her? What will she teach in RCIA and catechism classes – what the Church teaches, or what she wants it to teach?

 

[Pug]

What motivates a Catholic to be disobedient to the Church’s teaching - emotion or reason?

Thoughts anyone?

You may almost be asking, what motivates one to sin? I think they see a good and want to pursue it, but they pursue it to the detriment of other considerations. Maybe they do that because they emotionally desire the one good. Or maybe they do it because they are perplexed; that is, they are trying to follow the rules in their head, but can’t figure out any good way to meet them all. That could happen especially if they have internalized a set of societal rules in addition to religious truths, as someone mentioned above. This would be compounded by pride if they feel they can figure it all out themselves without study.

 

[Eddy]

I just don’t understand, if someone doesn’t accept the Church’s authority on faith and morals - or parts thereof - why would they want to stick around? What compels them to stay? I ask that with all sincerity. Maybe I’m reading the wrong threads. I’ve never seen a good, sound, logical argument with good resources to back up disobedience.

Ok, I’m taking the dissenting Catholic view here, even though I’m not one. You don’t get too many of them around here! Why do they stick around? All kinds of reasons. Here’s some I’ve heard:

1. Eucharist. They believe Eucharist is at the centre of their faith and it simply isn’t offered in the same way elsewhere.
2. Experience of the developing world. Working in the developing world has given them a sense of what they feel is the true church, and they are loyal to that.
3. Culture/tradition/family. It’s really, really tough to leave your church ‘family’ if you feel you belong to it. It’s a little like having a fight with your parents - you may be furious with them, but that doesn’t mean that they cease to be your parents.
4. Responsibility. Many dissenting Catholics I know have an INCREDIBLY strong sense of responsibility to the church. Gandhi’s famous comment ‘we must be the change we want to see in the world’, fits - they believe that if the church is to change, then people who want change must stay. They believe the church belongs to the whole people of God, to fishermen and carpenters, not just to academically qualified bishops and cardinals.

If you’re interested, Thoughtful, there’s a book out in the UK, called ‘Why I am Still a Catholic’, an edited volume of views of various people in the UK (including Tony Blair’s wife Cherie). It probably gives a good overview of the various reasons why people stick around. I don’t think you’ll agree with it, but it might answer some of these questions?

I’ve never seen a good, sound, logical argument with good resources to back up disobedience.

With all due respect, and please, don’t misinterpret me, I’m not trying to be cheeky, this probably is decided by your underlying faith (and faith, by it’s very nature isn’t logical, otherwise why would you call it faith?). In the same way that I’ve read threads here, which Conservative Catholics firmly believe ARE logical, and I’ve seen them as anything but! So you will find many very solid academic texts, for example, arguing for women’s ordination (at least to diaconate), and citing early church teaching, scripture, historical evidence. But those views are labelled ‘illogical’ because of underlying belief systems. Personally I simply don’t believe many of these issues are black and white because there IS evidence on both sides.

I think to the extent there is a reason we can articulate, it is overweening pride. A demand that things be done my way – regardless of what the Bible, Tradition and the Magisterium say. It is like saying, “The universe revolves around me. And it has to revolve in the direction I want it to revolve.”

I don’t doubt pride is there in some people. But it simply isn’t fair to make that argument against everyone who disagrees with Church teachings. Do you have any idea of the level of sacrifice some people go through if they leave the Catholic Church? Do you have any idea what it’s like for someone who believes in Eucharist to sit, day in, day out, and not receive it? I could similarly argue that Conservative Catholics are guilty of pride because they hold their personal comfort in their faith and the ‘way they like it’ over the Spirit of God as it’s moving in the church. But I’m not arguing that. Because it would be unfair and it would be unjust and it would be hurtful, to people who are doing and believing what they earnestly believe to be right. Yes, sometimes it’s pride. But sometimes it’s a whole lot harder and more costly to rock the boat than it is to sit still.
I was listening to Barack Obama’s speech yesterday (I’m in the UK, but it was on the news!), where he said we need to learn to ‘disagree without being disagreeable’. It struck me as an important lesson for Christianity.

 

[Thoughtful]

1. Eucharist. They believe Eucharist is at the centre of their faith and it simply isn’t offered in the same way elsewhere…

So they believe the Church can be right sometimes.

1. Experience of the developing world. Working in the developing world has given them a sense of what they **feel **is the true church, and they are loyal to that…

Again, what they feel …can many of them prove that their vision of the Church is sync with the rest of the world?

1. Culture/tradition/family. It’s really, really tough to leave your church ‘family’ if you feel you belong to it. It’s a little like having a fight with your parents - you may be furious with them, but that doesn’t mean that they cease to be your parents…

I don’t think fury is the problem; I think it’s rebellion.

1. Responsibility. Many dissenting Catholics I know have an INCREDIBLY strong sense of responsibility to the church…

Responsibility to uphold and protect it or tear it down? What kind of responsibility are they talking about?

They believe the church belongs to the whole people of God, to fishermen and carpenters, not just to academically qualified bishops and cardinals…

But not to those who believe, suffer, and live the message of Christ as brought down through ages and presented through the Magisterium Exactly whose vision are they promoting?

If you’re interested, Thoughtful, there’s a book out in the UK, called ‘Why I am Still a Catholic’, an edited volume of views of various people in the UK (including Tony Blair’s wife Cherie). It probably gives a good overview of the various reasons why people stick around. I don’t think you’ll agree with it, but it might answer some of these questions?.

I agree, I think it would be a tough read. I looked it up on-line and searched the forums for some info (saw your critique of it). I can get it through Chapters. Using big names to give credence to dissent is poor taste in my mind. One day I’ll probably read it, but for now I’ll go with John Paul II over Cherie Blair any day.

With all due respect, and please, don’t misinterpret me, I’m not trying to be cheeky, this probably is decided by your underlying faith (and faith, by it’s very nature isn’t logical, otherwise why would you call it faith?)…

What do you mean by “underlying faith.”

In the same way that I’ve read threads here, which Conservative Catholics firmly believe ARE logical, and I’ve seen them as anything but! So you will find many very solid academic texts, for example, arguing for women’s ordination (at least to diaconate), and citing early church teaching, scripture, historical evidence. But those views are labelled ‘illogical’ because of underlying belief systems. Personally I simply don’t believe many of these issues are black and white because there IS evidence on both sides…

I would check their references, like I hope they check mine.

I don’t doubt pride is there in some people. But it simply isn’t fair to make that argument against everyone who disagrees with Church teachings. Do you have any idea of the level of sacrifice some people go through if they leave the Catholic Church? .

No offence, Eddy, but you talk to the majority of ex-Catholics and they are happy to be away from the Church that withheld the “protestant” truths from them. I think there is a thread somewhere here about that.

Do you have any idea what it’s like for someone who believes in Eucharist to sit, day in, day out, and not receive it? .

Okay, this begs the question, if the rules of the Chuch are not binding on them (and they call themselves Catholic) why wouldn’t they just go up and receive communion…after all isn’t that just another Church rule?

next post

 

[Thoughtful]

I could similarly argue that Conservative Catholics are guilty of pride because they hold their personal comfort in their faith and the ‘way they like it’ over the Spirit of God as it’s moving in the church…

Okay, pride and personal comfort…interesting connection. However, I follow the Church’s teachings not because it is the “way** I** like it.” I follow it because I believe in Christ’s promise that the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) is guiding the Church and because He said the gates of Hell would not prevail.

But I’m not arguing that. Because it would be unfair and it would be unjust and it would be hurtful, to people who are doing and believing what they earnestly believe to be right. Yes, sometimes it’s pride. But sometimes it’s a whole lot harder and more costly to rock the boat than it is to sit still…

The light of truth can be very painful when shone into dark corners.

I was listening to Barack Obama’s speech yesterday (I’m in the UK, but it was on the news!), where he said we need to learn to ‘disagree without being disagreeable’. It struck me as an important lesson for Christianity.

Political rhetoric if you ask me. How do you interpret it?

 

[Eddy]

So they believe the Church can be right sometimes.

Of course. The church believes in the trinity, in redemption, in grace, of course they believe that it’s right sometimes! I think the difference between Conservatives and Liberals (for want of a better term to use) is what they regard as essential - on essentials unity and so on!

Again, what they feel …can many of them prove that their vision of the Church is sync with the rest of the world?

I’ve been trying to work this out too (bearing in mind that I’m not part of the group I’m trying to explain). I think it’s partly down to vision of the Church and who the church belongs to. I’ve friends who’ve worked among abject poverty, alongside religious orders, and they would believe that those nuns and priests, and the people they work among are the Church that they seek to be in sync with. I think. But I’d have to ask them!

I don’t think fury is the problem; I think it’s rebellion.

I guess what I was trying to get at with the family metaphor is that sometimes your parents are wrong - and part of becoming a grown up is learning to accept your parents strengths and all the good they gave you, honouring them and respecting them, while also learning to disagree gracefully without destroying the family?

Responsibility to uphold and protect it or tear it down? What *kind of responsibility *are they talking about? … Exactly whose vision are they promoting?

I think they’d argue that their responsibility is to Christ, and the vision they promote, to the best of their ability, is Christ’s.

Using big names to give credence to dissent is poor taste in my mind. One day I’ll probably read it, but for now I’ll go with John Paul II over Cherie Blair any day.

I don’t think the book’s intention is to give credence to dissent - I think it’s more meant to be a socio-cultural profile of Catholicism and how it ‘works’ in the UK - not all the voices are particularly dissenting. No, I’m not a fan of Cherie Blair either . I don’t reckon you’d agree with the book, I just thought it might give a better answer to your question than I could!

What do you mean by “underlying faith.” … I would check their references, like I hope they check mine.

I think the essential core of what we believe is faith. The book of Hebrews tells us ‘faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we do not see’. Or, to give the dictionary definition faith is ‘confidence or trust in a person or thing’ or ‘belief that is not based on proof’. In other words, we take something, hold some truth as unquestionable, and things that challenge that, we hold in light of that truth. So, for example, in the debate on women’s ordination, you have people saying ‘this debate is illogical, Rome has spoken, case is closed’. But that is only logical if you have faith in Rome. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, I just think it’s inevitable. I, for example, take as read that I have a relationship with Jesus, and will refute anything that denies that, no matter how logical. I’m not sure that I’m expressing what I’m trying to say very well. Sorry!

No offence, Eddy, but you talk to the majority of ex-Catholics and they are happy to be away from the Church that withheld the “protestant” truths from them

No offence . I can only speak of the people I know who have left the Catholic church, some to Protestantism, but the majority have simply left. Your experience isn’t my experience, which is fair enough. I think there’s a difference between those who’ve ‘embraced’ Protestantism, and those who’ve ‘moved into’ Protestantism.

Okay, this begs the question, if the rules of the Chuch are not binding on them (and they call themselves Catholic) why wouldn’t they just go up and receive communion…after all isn’t that just another Church rule?

Some do. Hmm, I can think of a few who you might classify as ‘dissenting’ who would actually be the ones celebrating the Mass! I guess I was having an emotional reaction to the ‘pride’ thing, because I passionately believe that that is not true of everyone

 

[Eddy]

Okay, pride and personal comfort…interesting connection. However, I follow the Church’s teachings not because it is the “way** I** like it.” I follow it because I believe in Christ’s promise that the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) is guiding the Church and because He said the gates of Hell would not prevail.

I don’t doubt that, or your faith, for a second. I was just saying that’s an argument that could be made - and that it’s not nice to throw accusations of pride at a large group of people without seeing the diversity within it.

Political rhetoric if you ask me. How do you interpret it?

Oh, I just thought it was a nice phrase - we should disagree without being disagreeable - is a good sentiment regardless of where it’s said. As for Obama. Well, I have my views, but I try not to get involved in commenting to natives of a country on what I think of their electoral politics (policies are a different matter!) Doesn’t stop me when it comes to religion though!

BTW, I’m off on retreat tomorrow for a couple of weeks. So if I don’t get back to you it’s just that I won’t have access to a computer.

 

[Eddy]

BTW, I’m off on retreat tomorrow for a couple of weeks. So if I don’t get back to you it’s just that I won’t have access to a computer.

And, of course, because I’ll be spending my time hanging out with my best friend . Sorry, reading back I realised just how much I sound like I’m devaluing such a precious time!

 

[Thoughtful]

BTW, I’m off on retreat tomorrow for a couple of weeks. So if I don’t get back to you it’s just that I won’t have access to a computer.

Hi Eddy,

Have a good retreat! It’s great “talking” with you!

 

[vern_humphrey]

Of course. The church believes in the trinity, in redemption, in grace, of course they believe that it’s right sometimes! I think the difference between Conservatives and Liberals (for want of a better term to use) is what they regard as essential - on essentials unity and so on!

But it isn’t a matter of what we regard. The** Church** teaches us what is essential.

For example, how can any Catholic believe that abortion is not a serious sin and a heinous crime?

 

[dessert]

This has been a superinteresting thread although you did a switchroo on me as I determined that views meant like opinions now it is disobedience to truth?
But I would still like to reply because the talk of family made me think that My faith is actually more of a comparrison to marraiage than like parents. I am married and everything and decisions we have made has not even compared to my return to my faith in the Catholic church and Christ.
Marriage is a bond and even though I may think of divorce for reasons or emotions I could not divorce God because of the forgiveness He has shown me. So I stay in both aspects. So are you kind of like talking about leaving god like divorce or why do we stay with God because we don’t believe in or agree with everything He says? Can you explain more on this thoughtfull? dessert

 

[dessert]

But it isn’t a matter of what we regard. The** Church** teaches us what is essential.

For example, how can any Catholic believe that abortion is not a serious sin and a heinous crime?

I have know a few Catholics that have had the bad A word and they rationalize it away or are away from the teaching and swayed by" friends". They just don’t see it that way or are totally in denial of the reallity. dessert

 

[vern_humphrey]

That’s why I say one component is overweening pride. Those who dissent openly are saying, in effect, “I know more about faith and morals than our Holy Mother, the Church.”

That, of course, is a logical impossibility. We as laypeople do not have the Magisterium, nor do we have the Kharisma of Infallibility.

 

[dessert]

Dissenters (if that is a word) are essentetioally saying they don’t want to be part of the organization as you stated the magistreum as now you are talking about the organized part of the Church but with the emotional it is the Holy Spirit that is talking to our heart. IMHO I think people can leave with their mind but hteir heart stays or dissent with both but god does not desert us. Does He? dessert

 

[vern_humphrey]

Dissenters (if that is a word) are essentetioally saying they don’t want to be part of the organization as you stated the magistreum as now you are talking about the organized part of the Church

That is the Catholic Church.

The Church is a formal organization – that’s how Christ organized it. He did it so that it could teach His message down through the ages. You can read in the Gospels how He trained and commissioned the Apostles to teach his message (that’s what the Magisterium is.) He promised that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church (that’s the Kharisma of Infallibility.)

but with the emotional it is the Holy Spirit that is talking to our heart. IMHO I think people can leave with their mind but hteir heart stays or dissent with both but god does not desert us. Does He? dessert

And there is overweening pride – “the Holy Spirit tells me things that He does not tell the Church. *** I*** am right and the Church is wrong!”