Are Eastern Catholics to look to the Eastern Orthodox for patristic guidance?

[Alexius]

Who cares what you Latins think. All you can do is blabber on about how you’d like female Priests, guitars at services, elevate the Blessed Mother as a “Co-Redeemer”, and generally become “neo-Catholic/Protestants”. The Ukrainians (and, by the way - I am a “True American” - Ukrainian father, Cherokee Mother) have allowed themselves to become quite Latinized in an attempt to become more “accepted” by Latins. What has it gotten them? Look at the posts – nothing but derision. You’ll never accept them as equals with Latins.
We Byzantines did without you for 500 years until the Pope agreed to honor our traditions and Liturgy. We can always do without you again.

I know I’m gonna get ripped apart for this, but sometimes I feel the same way–it is a feeling echoed by many (many who will not admit it even)…

Prayers and petitions for peace,
Alexius

 

[East_and_West]

Who cares what you Latins think.

Wow. You really do love your western bretheren don’t you.

All you can do is blabber on about how you’d like female Priests, guitars at services, elevate the Blessed Mother as a “Co-Redeemer”, and generally become “neo-Catholic/Protestants”.
.

So slandering the West is something important to you, i see. No, we want no such things.

The Ukrainians (and, by the way - I am a “True American” - Ukrainian father, Cherokee Mother) have allowed themselves to become quite Latinized in an attempt to become more “accepted” by Latins. What has it gotten them? Look at the posts – nothing but derision.

Latinizations are one thing. Rejection of Catholic dogma is another thing.

You’ll never accept them as equals with Latins.
We Byzantines did without you for 500 years until the Pope agreed to honor our traditions and Liturgy. We can always do without you again.

If you leave Christ’s Church through Schism, then we will mourn the loss yet we will not cease to be the Body of Christ and you will. That is your choice and a choice that would put your very soul in jeopardy. I will pray that God gives you a spirit of peace and unity.

 

[East_and_West]

I know I’m gonna get ripped apart for this, but sometimes I feel the same way–it is a feeling echoed by many (many who will not admit it even)…

Prayers and petitions for peace,
Alexius

Shame on you for encouraging such behavior. Down right unchristian!!!

 

[J.J]

I know I’m gonna get ripped apart for this, but sometimes I feel the same way–it is a feeling echoed by many (many who will not admit it even)…

Prayers and petitions for peace,
Alexius

Looks like one is not encouraged (and downright chastised when doing so) to express an opinion or even historical fact that may not coincide with “group think” and “feel good” attitude of current consensus.
Perhaps I should have prefaced my comment with disclaimer = “The following is merely my opinion; you are free to read it, but not required to believe it or remember it”.

SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!
j. j.

 

[East_and_West]

Looks like one is not encouraged (and downright chastised when doing so) to express an opinion or even historical fact that may not coincide with “group think” and “feel good” attitude of current consensus.
Perhaps I should have prefaced my comment with disclaimer = “The following is merely my opinion; you are free to read it, but not required to believe it or remember it”.

SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!
j. j.

The problem is that you don’t share the mind of the Church. Breaking communion with her is a good way to endanger your soul. You may not like hearing that but is simply the truth.

 

[Alexius]

Shame on you for encouraging such behavior. Down right unchristian!!!

I wasn’t saying I’m proud of it, I was just being honest! Why do you think I put an embarassed face at the end of the post? I certainly don’t encourage such statements, but I can understand that some have them at some point or another, as I have. I never said it was right. Just before everyone condemns such feelings, they should search their own hearts first…That is all.

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[natsclem]

How would you reconcile this statement in the face of Rome’s mandate that the Eastern Churches return to their original traditions and praxes which are, in many cases, decidely more Orthodox than the traditions and praxes of the Latin Church (ref: +JPII’s 1995 apostolic letter Orientale Lumen)? Are you suggesting that it would be better for the Eastern Churches to ignore the Holy Father’s directive and “default” to a more Latin view of things?

I don’t mean to offend, Seamus, but when I first read your initial post I interpreted it much the same as did Woodstock. And frankly, your clarification, as quoted above, has sort of the same feel to it as well. I mean, it’s hard to miss the inference that the “rest of the Catholic Church” that you refer to can only be the Latin Church… right?

JPII recognized that the Eastern Catholic Churches could and should express their Catholicism in terms that are more Orthodox than Latin in tradition and praxis, because these are the theological constructs that are native to these Churches and the faithful that belong to them. He recognized as well that this could be done without compromising and/or rejecting the core teachings of the Church… and he encouraged it! Catholicism, after all, represents unity, not uniformity.

More Orthodox than Latin? What do you mean?Shouldn’t the Faith handed down by the Apostles be understood and expressed in our daily life in the languages of different nations? Why are we dividing the Faith into Orthodox and Latin? We should have the fullness of that Faith neither Orthodox nor Latin but Catholic Apostolic of which the purity and integrity is to be guarded and defended by the papal chair. Of course,we cannot do away with the reality that there are Orthodox and Latin traditions. The Philippine’s Church is of Latin tradition. If the Orthodox tradition has something to offer to us Filipinos, they must come to our shores. Where are they? They are not that much into missions. They are more concerned with their ethnic survival? Many Eastern churches are probably more Latinized because the Latin tradition has more to offer in theology or probably “uniformity-unity” is more convenient than “communion-unity.”

 

[natsclem]

I have already voted and stated my opinion but as I slowly learn more about the Eastern Catholic churches this question has stayed in the back of my mind and I would like to comment again.

First, the question itself is limited to the the experiance of Byzantine Rite Catholic Churches. Even there alone I still say the answer is no. There are a large number of Byzantinve Rite Catholics and I see no reason that they shouldn’t look to each other for guidence. We certainly much respect them enought to be about to run their own churches. They do not have to remain in lock step pace with the churches that they are not in communion with. Nor would I as a Latin Catholic look to a sedevacantist for guidence since some of them have started ordaining women.

If a Byzantine Rite Catholic does need to look outside of the Byzantine Rite Catholic Churches, they should look to the other Eastern Catholic Churches or either the Syrian, Armenian, or Coptic Rites. Whe all is said and done, there is nothing wrong with them looking to the Latin Rite either. There is certainly nothing wrong with the Latin Rite, and just as I have developed a greated respect and love for the older Latin form coming out of my study of the East, certainly it can work both ways.

We certianly want to be at peace with the mirrors of the Catholic Churches. We should cooperate and heal the wounds of our seperation as best we can but on internal Church matters, Catholic should seek out Catholic and if the Eastern Orthodox knew what was best, they would be seeking out the Byzantine Rite Catholics for guidance. I would seek out a Maronite, or a Coptic Catholic or a Ukranian Catholic before I would ever call SSPX. Even though I am fluent in Latin, I would learn Aramaic and Slovonic before I submitted to a preist who is acting illicitly.

By the example of the Fathers, we all should look to the Bishop of Rome for guidance to definitely settle disputes–“the Bishop of Rome has spoken”–regardless of his ethnic origin.

 

[natsclem]

“Yes, but…”

…a certain amount of consideration and judgement must be used in light of history and certain polemic tendancies to contradistinction found in some circles.

In the wake of the proclamation of the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception, some Orthodox literature and writers began to voiciferously deny and denounce it even a possibility - in a reactionary manner really. Before Rome so spoke, any number of theologians might be read who suggest that the IC (if not in those terms) was a very real and valid pious opinion/speculation, etc.

At a local Greek Orthodox book store (located in the parish hall) I was looking through a rather handsome leather-bound volume on the Life of the Mother of God offered from patristic stand points. I was a little dismayed to find on every other page a polemic for why Rome was in grave heterodox error…

I don’t believe such as that would be helpful or historically accurate in recovering fuller Eastern patrimony.

My vote was no. Eastern Catholics should look for guidance to Churches in communion with the Bishop of Rome to guarantee the integrity of the Catholic Apostolic Faith without which no one can be saved.

 

[East_and_West]

My vote was no. Eastern Catholics should look for guidance to Churches in communion with the Bishop of Rome to guarantee the integrity of the Catholic Apostolic Faith without which no one can be saved.

AMEN!!!

 

[Ungcsertez]

AMEN!!!

I think this should be only answered by the Eastern Cartholic Particular Churches themselves.

U-C

 

[Alexius]

My vote was no. Eastern Catholics should look for guidance to Churches in communion with the Bishop of Rome to guarantee the integrity of the Catholic Apostolic Faith without which no one can be saved.

No offense to you personally, but that is the same mentality that lead to most of the Latinizations in the East. That is why the Popes have said to return to own roots…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[East_and_West]

I think this should be only answered by the Eastern Cartholic Particular Churches themselves.

U-C

OH JEESH!!!

 

[East_and_West]

No offense to you personally, but that is the same mentality that lead to most of the Latinizations in the East. That is why the Popes have said to return to own roots…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

Are you kiddin me? Are you kidding me? He just suggested that Eastern Catholics look withing their own comunion for guidance, rather than look to those who are outside the bounds of the Church. Goodness gracious.

 

[Alexius]

Are you kiddin me? Are you kidding me? He just suggested that Eastern Catholics look withing their own comunion for guidance, rather than look to those who are outside the bounds of the Church. Goodness gracious.

Yes and I’m saying that the majority have looked to Rome; something that has caused many churches to lose track of their past. In order to restore that past, Eastern Catholics (specifically Byzantine Catholics) should look to the Orthodox. I’m not attacking him or you, just giving my opinion. GOD bless you!

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[East_and_West]

Yes and I’m saying that the majority have looked to Rome; something that has caused many churches to lose track of their past. In order to restore that past, Eastern Catholics (specifically Byzantine Catholics) should look to the Orthodox. I’m not attacking him or you, just giving my opinion. GOD bless you!

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

Ok. I see your point. HOWEVER, if the Eastern Catholic Churches would look to Rome, what would they hear today? Nothing but calls to return to their Eastern roots.

 

[Woodstock]

Ok. I see your point. HOWEVER, if the Eastern Catholic Churches would look to Rome, what would they hear today? Nothing but calls to return to their Eastern roots.

So Rome says they should look to the Orthodox? Then what’s the argument in this thread about?

 

[East_and_West]

So Rome says they should look to the Orthodox? Then what’s the argument in this thread about?

No, as Ghosty has pointed out, there have changes and developments in the EO Churches since the Unions and, thus, they need to be really careful about this. Furthermore, the EO explicitly reject Catholic Dogmas such as the IC, Papal Infallibility, etc, that ECs must accept as Catholics, although often describing them in Eastern terms.

 

[Alexius]

Ok. I see your point. HOWEVER, if the Eastern Catholic Churches would look to Rome, what would they hear today? Nothing but calls to return to their Eastern roots.

Understood, but it seems we are back to looks to the Orthodox then, no?

 

[Alexius]

No, as Ghosty has pointed out, there have changes and developments in the EO Churches since the Unions and, thus, they need to be really careful about this. Furthermore, the EO explicitly reject Catholic Dogmas such as the IC, Papal Infallibility, etc, that ECs must accept as Catholics, although often describing them in Eastern terms.

That, I think, is the conflict. Perhaps most of the return to our roots will be more in liturgy and practice (spirituality), not necessarily specific theology.